New Permaculture Certification Models

We started talking about this in another thread, but it was becoming a total thread-jack. It sounds like we may have some good ideas among us. So let's talk about it here.

My reason for thinking a new certification model is needed centers around certification being inaccessible to people who have willingness, but can't afford to take a PDC. I believe there are other ways to compensate teachers other than a large course fee while also spawning new actual permaculture sites and creating income generation for practitioners.

Should there be levels of more levels of certification like Permaculture Practitioner, Permaculture Designer, Permaculture Teacher? How about specialized certification for people to specialize in particular areas like drylands permaculture, food production, technology overlay, urban food systems, etc?

How about training people on their own land to design a system for their site and doing some hand holding to get them started in income generation with an agreement to remit a percentage of income to the teacher for a period of time for payment of services. This could be used as deferment of payment for certification for those who cannot afford thde full amount for certification. Perhaps the teacher would collect a higher total amount for fees deferred in this way. How about not giving certification just for taking classes? Maybe certifications should only be given upon evaluation of the student's installation, practice and/or teaching. Some other professions work this way to ensure you have experiential knowledge of the material and are actually doing work in the field.

What comes to mind for you when thinking about how permaculture certification can be better?

I really like the "levels of certification bit".. I'd add a few more on the front end before you get to designer/teacher.

I think the 'specialized certification' is a groovy idea as well. I think in my ideal situation were I the one devising the process, you'd take the course and get the quick background info on all the general areas/climes covered (e.g. dryland, urban, temperate, etc.) like you do currently, then spend a year or two practicing under a mentor in one of these specific areas, after which you'd get your cert.

Who gives the certification and how does someone get one without having to travel or pay expensive fees?  How do I spend a year or two practicing under a mentor if there isn't one in my locale and I can't afford to travel or leave home for a long period? 

Well.. what level of education/experience do you think should be required? I'm sure some folks feel the three weeks is sufficient?

Maybe the forum of an Internet video conference rather than a public meeting could do something to address some of the price issue by gutting the travel costs from the tab?

And maybe a way around the mentorship period if you've already obtained enough experience pertinent to your focus and can verify through documentation, references, etc.?

I dunno though.. it doesn't make sense to me sending out new recruits armed with a three week education as the flagbearers for a fledgling movement.

What's your solution?

Mike E wrote:

What's your solution?

My personal solution is to teach myself from books and messageboards.  I don't have a solution to the certification issue.    If  I did, I wouldn't need to be asking those questions.

I like the online teaching idea. Universities are moving towards doing more of that as a cost saver.  I've taken an online course before and it works just fine. The actual lectures could be pre-recorded and supplemented with web conferences where students and teacher could interact in real time. I could imagine a student documenting progress creating a permaculture site with video and pictures as well. Perhaps statements from people in his/her community who benefit from the project or are observing could be a part of the documentation.

I see no reason why a course given like this couldn't be much less expensive than current PDC fees. It would allow for much larger class sizes and elimination of travel expenses potentially increasing the earnings for an instructor and lowering costs for both instructor and student.

It would be nice to start a permaculture trust and start-up tax exempt start-ups with the capital.


All that has to be done is a major PR campaign to allow those with trusts and estates when probating property to give to a trust fund that can turn around and support local innovations of sustainable design whilst keeping fees low.

I think if you were able to use charitable trusts as a buffer to fund local startups then you could generate revenues that would in turn create cost-efficient perma-goods that work for the community... the revenues would allow those start-ups to wean themselves off of the fund by generating profits... the fund would act like a savings and loan program but would involve no interest or principle, but rather charitable assets donated to the trust by will which are merely an exchange of capital to start-ups who are willing to focus on a standard sustainable business template that is adaptable to each locale's resources.

What's the purpose of the course? To give you practical, hands on experience. You can't get that through an online course. You need a project/practical angle to it.

I would propose a model that is similar to many computer/professional certifications:

[li]Establish a certification body made up of currently certified permaculture designers. It will be the responsibility of these individuals to review question pools, applications, and project designs. I envision this being a community based, open group. Ideally it would be lead/steered by folks like Mollison, Sepp, Holmgren, etc.. (think executive board).[/li]
[li]Publish a syllabus that contains what you are expected to know. This allows people to study for the test however they choose.[/li]
[li]Individuals would study on their own, using anything they could find. This includes books, youtube, video lectures, the whole nine yards. This also provides room for individuals to runt heir own training courses much as they do now.[/li]
[li]Take a test. This can be based at a learning center like prometric or, more realistically, out of a website. Precautions must be taken to ensure the test is administered fairly. There could be different levels of certification, if desired.[/li]
[li]In addition to the test, recommendations are required. These come from people for which you have done projects. I would suggest at least one full project proposal with documentation, plus a second design as a minimum. These would be evaluated b the certification body.[/li]

Anyway, those are my initial two cents. I could see developing a central website/system to facilitate this certification system globally. Thoughts?

Perma,

Funny you should say that!  Part of my plan is to use the nonprofit corp I started as a trust. I couldn't agree more!

What's the purpose of the course? To give you practical, hands on experience...You need a project/practical angle to it.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying in the context of online instruction. I don't know of any online classes worth anything that don't include practice of the material taught. We're essentially saying the same thing.

thank you very much for sharing

Wow! In less than a day we have some actionable ideas! Let's keep going to flesh it out.

I was thinking about people who don't really care about becoming certified to design for others or teach. They just want to learn enough to garden at their own home perhaps. They could sit in on basic courses for a reduced tuition with a few participation restrictions like colleges offer. (I forget what schools call this.) Or there could be a separate complete course for them. I don't know which would be better or if another option would do the trick.

Looks like some good solutions are developing! 

TheLight wrote:
In addition to the test, recommendations are required. These come from people for which you have done projects. I would suggest at least one full project proposal with documentation, plus a second design as a minimum. These would be evaluated by the certification body.

I'm wondering how one gets to do projects for people if one isn't certified yet?  And if one is mainly interested in being able to teach, and has used one's own property as the project, how would one get recommendations?

For instance I would love to be able to teach permaculture "officially" on my own place here, my demonstration site (assuming I ever get it to the point where it is worthy of being a demonstration site  ).  How would I get certified to do that under the new certification models?

Ben, I knew we would agree on something! 

I am currently still in law school but my intentions are to start this asap.  I have a vast amount of connections with the higher ups in Florida and all we really need is a social networking site to centralize the information as a reference to donors who are committed to the cause... I can act as legal counsel once I graduate and we can really do this.

It is my life goal to do two things: design a permaculture in St Augustine for my family, and start this trust fund and build upon tax-exempt businesses to push permaculture to free up the markets.

I think we can get a lot done on this site if we keep this idea pumping and work to promote it… I think we would be really surprise how many wealthy people will donate to what could be the most valuable investment of the twenty-first century. 

I have my PDC and I honestly learned more by myself in practice and reading then from the class... most of the class is intro... then 80 hrs of field practice which is good but it isn't anything you can't learn for yourself.. actually it is far less because you should never standardize your practice and should always keep growing with it... too many assume that whatever comes from the PDC is all they have to learn

I think people like Bill Mollison, Sepp Holzer and Manasoba Fukuoka are proof that you don't have to take a PDC in order to be a permaculturist. Some can just figure it out on there on. Taking into account different levels of ability to self-teach, I embrace that there is no substitute for instruction for most people. I'd say it's more a matter of how we can take this instruction to more people while generating new sites at the same time.

Lots of good ideas, but I am not convinced there is any consistent vision or goal in this thread, and without that, people are pulling in different directions. When buying a computer, they say: Price, Power, and Ease of Use - pick any one or two, but you can't have all three at the same time. Likewise, when considering a house, there are many factors, some of which work against each other - location, price, size, quality, age, features, type of construction. Can't normally have a huge house with a new pool in a prime location for the price of a shack in an area without utilities.

What is the purpose of the course? To introduce as many people as possible to permaculture (quickest and cheapest), to help some people develop moderate expertise, or to help a few people develop real in-depth expertise (which takes more time and money)??  One alternative program is not going to do all of this. Is certification really desirable, and if so, why?  Is this course designed for backyard permies to do things part-time, or for people who are going to run larger concerns that make $100,000+ a year while supporting several people?  Is there a detailed curriculum of what is going to be taught, or will we just teach some permaculture in general? Is it horticulture-focused, or will the course go into construction, economics and ethics or spirituality?  How many contact hours are involved, how many hours for lecture, discussion, drawing and digging??

Perma Republican wrote:

It is my life goal to do two things: design a permaculture in St Augustine for my family

I have in-laws in Jacksonville.  If you ever get a permaculture garden up and running in that region, I would love to visit it! 

Jonathan_Byron wrote:
or spirituality?

I thought that spirituality as a mandatory part of permaculture had been poopoodiated already! 

Well, I'm not sure that overall, it is mandatory, but some people think it is important and it is part of some PDC courses.... my point is that people are trying to draw the map and give instructions on how to get somewhere before they have agreed on where they are going.

by starting a site and by using some PR work, by using my legal fees as a buffer I could start a PermaTrust… what one could do is develop a social networking forum around a  trust fund to where a member could logon to the site, upload a sustainable design template/schedule for review by the management of the trust.

The review process would cover the economic, ecological, and legal parameters for which the template may fit in… almost like applying for a loan, but instead a charitable trust.

The social networking aspect could be like permies, but instead there would be an incentive to make a good template for your bioregion to send in for review.  Once the business review process is granted trust funds could be used to supply start-up capital along with a on-site review process... a member could sign a constractual obligation to forfeit the property if upon violation of the trust.

The trust could start off by funding agricultural crops, but as it grows it could work with creating a channel of production loop that is sustainable.

This has been my life goal here so go light on me please…

I think it is good to do separate ideas at first... so we explore all options... I just think that short-term capital is the only real problem... with a trust fund that is eliminated

my point is that people are trying to draw the map and give instructions on how to get somewhere before they have agreed on where they are going.

Jonathan,

I think we have been laying out where we want to go throughout the discussion. You  might be the kind of thinker who needs discrete steps laid out in a linear fashion. I think it's perfectly good to allow a free flow of ideas without judgment or censoring. That's what a brainstorm is and this thread is a bit of a brainstorm. (At least, that was my purpose in starting it.) Often the greatest progress is make during nonlinear movements.

We'll get to defining things more discretely as we go. Right now let's just keep putting ideas in the pile. That includes ideas about the purpose of courses. There can be more than one purpose and course designed to meet each. I like the questions you threw into the mix. How would you answer them?

Point taken on the brainstorming. And I'll answer your question about how I would answer my questions by talking about something rather different!

I sat in on part of an attempt to get an urban gardening program started. The idea was to train people, make use of vacant lots in the city, and grow organic food and jobs. All quite good ideas. For some reason, the people running the program thought that the state Master Gardener program was the thing to do. Get people certified as master gardeners, then they would be able to go out and do great things was the thinking. On researching it, it became apparent that the state MG program was rather full and it would be some time until it became possible to get people into it unless the state could create some special classes, but the state was pressed for cash. And there is a requirement that people who go through the MG program have to give back 100 hours volunteer work in the first 2 years, that did not sit well with the group - they did not like the idea that low income, previously unemployed/newly employed people would be obligated to put in weeks of time, there were questions about transportation to the mandatory volunteer opportunities, etc etc.  So it kinda stalled.

I looked at the master gardener curriculum from a few states, and about half of it is irrelevant to people with an organic/permaculture orientation (lawn turf coddling? Roses and ornamentals?). And it lacks lots of key ideas. But the basic outline could be a starting point for developing one sort of program. 

As far as certification goes, my answer is "it depends."  If someone is doing it for themselves, it is not necessary.  If someone does want to do it to prove something to their neighbors or potential employers or investors, a few routes occurred to me. One I will present here: a program similar to the Scouts.

So the Scouts have merit badges. Every badge has a book (used to buy them, today, such a system could rely on free pdf downloads).  The book is a mini-textbook, and may have a list of questions a person must be able to answer, a list of skills that must be demonstrated, or may require some sort of project. Each badge represents knowledge, experience, and a level of achievement or expertise in a topic. For permaculture, one can envision badges in things like beekeeping, soil microbiology, ethics, aspects of permaculture design, herbalism, drawing and CAD, plant propagation, solar energy, appropriate shelter,  etc etc. 

Each regional council has a list of experts who volunteer to oversee a badge or two, people who can answer questions and explain, direct self-study, and certify that a person has met all the requirements to get the badge.

On top of the individual badges, there are ranks - tenderfoot, first class, Eagle Scout. Each rank requires not only certain key badges, but also a certain number of electives, and usually some other requirements (Eagle Scout candidates have to do a significant service project).

That sort of model seems very good for community self-advancement. It won't meet all needs for certification, but fills one niche. Getting the top scout achievement (Eagle Scout) does get respect from some quarters - some employers favor it, it is good for college admission and scholarships.

BenjaminBurchall wrote:
Should there be levels of more levels of certification like Permaculture Practitioner, Permaculture Designer, Permaculture Teacher? How about specialized certification for people to specialize in particular areas like drylands permaculture, food production, technology overlay, urban food systems, etc?

Yes to all.

Jonathan_Byron wrote:
What is the purpose of the course? To introduce as many people as possible to permaculture (quickest and cheapest), to help some people develop moderate expertise, 

This

Here's my two cents:

The PDC (using the term to cover all certificate forms)  needs to be an open source project under a creative commons license (CC-BY-SA),  (Attribution—You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work.  and Share Alike—If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same, similar or a compatible license.) You cannot take material that was produced under a CC license, modify it, and claim a copyright. Legally once CC, always CC.

Get a lot of input and decide what you want in the PDC curriculum. Start from scratch. Don't automatically follow anyone's past PDC curriculum. Have an open mind and look at things as though no one had ever heard of permaculture before. Permaculture has been around for 35 years. Don't go back 35 years and say this is how it is. Take what has been learned in that time and put it to good use.

Once you have an outline and know exactly what you want in the first draft, ask specific people -regular forum contributors, each to take on a specific item/page. Do not ask for random volunteers. Instead of a generic "would someone please work on the_____ page? " ask a specific person if they would be willing to take the lead on a particular page.

Search the web for existing creative commons material that can be built upon, including photos and video.

Don't solve every problem before you start, if you do that you will never start. Assume that once you get going the problems will work themselves out-- and they will.

There are times when someone will have to have the final say, and that person should probably be Paul Wheaton.

As time goes by, keep adding more and more video content. It would be nice to start off with an all video presentation, but imo that's not realistic. Starting off its going to be heavily based upon print, but over time it should keep developing and keep improving and key to that is adding in more and more video. i.e. a picture is worth a thousand words, and a video is worth somewhat more. The PDC is not static, it should always be evolving and improving, never say "we are done".

In the end you want a free product that anyone anywhere can use to teach themselves with. It will never be as good as PDC taught be a real life person who knows what they are talking about, but it will be far better than a relying upon a book, and it will reach many times more people than a $1000 14-day course ever will. If you want to grow the number of people who are practicing permaculture with at least some level of competency, then use the tools we have; and that includes using the internet as the internet was meant to be used.

Oh, and I like the scouting metaphor.

my two cents....

Jonathan_Byron wrote:
That sort of model seems very good for community self-advancement. It won't meet all needs for certification, but fills one niche. Getting the top scout achievement (Eagle Scout) does get respect from some quarters - some employers favor it, it is good for college admission and scholarships.

I like everything you said! I supposed you've translated someone of what I was getting at with my idea into a much more easy to grasp concept. Having been a Scout, you example hit  me clear as a bell. I really, REALLY like this comparison to merit badges and ranks! I think this kind of educational approach to permaculture would make this knowledge accessible to a lot more people. The thing I really like is that people won't get certifications based on having taken a class, but for proving mastery in the material they have practiced.

I could see how a program like that could indeed meet the needs for certification. The cool thing would be that in addition to entirely self-directed study, we can have those specific resources like online classes (videos and teacher interaction time) and printed material for those who need that. In addition, I was thinking it would be good to have some sort of additional level of certification for those who contribute some new to the body of permaculture knowledge by innovating solutions that haven't been done before similar to how some fields of student don't a doctorate until the student has contributed something new.

Under what circumstance do you think that this idea as you've proposed it couldn't meet certification needs?

Earthgrown wrote:
There are times when someone will have to have the final say, and that person should probably be Paul Wheaton.

I don't know about that. Paul hasn't signed up for this thing I put out there. I wouldn't be hasty pinpoint anyone as the final authority. Perhaps there would be several final authorities - one in each field of study in a comprehensive training? No one person knows everything about all the fields that come under permaculture.

Earthgrown wrote:
In the end you want a free product that anyone anywhere can use to teach themselves with.

Do we? I go back and forth on the issue of "free". What are the pros and cons of "free"? Would different circumstances require free and others payment. Will the dedication of knowledgeable contributors be maintained if they receive no renumeration for their work in putting together and administering an educational program? There is already a load of free permaculture information available and being free hasn't swelled the numbers of permaculture practioners as far as I can see. We're still at the point of a lot of people being "into" permaculture, but not actually being involved in permaculture activities. For a fee based program, how do we ensure that all who truly want this knowledge can get it? Certainly, we wouldn't tell the unemployed father or single mother who has a family to support and has not been able to find enough work to meet all of their current needs that they must pay up front for the knowledge that they could use to build a better income for the family, would we? Would that serve to enlarge the number of practitioners for a movement that seeks to change how whole societies do things? Those are some questions I think are worth asking about the cost of permaculture education.

Just a thought but... If someone wants to learn it, present the material free. If someone wants to be certified in it, presumably to teach or get credentials for a business, charge them for the test and project review. That way we get the message out there, provide high quality learning materials to all, and also provide some level of confidence to others that someone certified in permaculture actually has some clue/experience. The rate should be set so that the group can be self-sufficient in terms of postage and hosting and content generation.

I could also see various levels of certification: associate, practitioner, and master comes to mind right off the bat. Perhaps even the merit badges for certain expert areas, however I worry that that might not be the most useful thing to concentrate on as it could make things more confusing to others. I think we should start a little simpler than that at first.

Also, why limit ourselves to content we create or that is licensed under the CC? The internet is a great place and part of what makes it that is the simple ability to link to other things. Although we can't link to torrents or videos of licensed materials, we can link to many youtube videos and other quality content we find. I would hope this body would go out and contact those with quality videos/meterials and ask for permission to include them. That's not to say that we shouldn't generate our own content, just that we should explore other ways of getting it as well.

Finally, I would suggest we add the NC to the CC license. I wouldn't want to put all this effort into something only to have someone else package it up and sell it without contributing back.

BenjaminBurchall wrote:
I don't know about that. Paul hasn't signed up for this thing I put out there

No he has not. Talk is cheap, and until there is a well established work product I am sure his interest level would be pretty low, well near zero I would assume. On the other hand until there is a well established "product", there's really no need for someone to arbitrate anything anyway.  There's a 99% chance that any grand plan discussed on the forum will never amount to anything, but if it ever does, Paul is the guy to have final say over things, simply because he probably has the best handle over what this thing "permaculture" is today, and where it needs to go in the future, and he already probably has more sweat equity into it than anyone we are likely to find.

BenjaminBurchall wrote:
Perhaps there would be several final authorities - one in each field of study in a comprehensive training? No one person knows everything about all the fields that come under permaculture.

The current PDC is neither fish nor fowl, meaning its overkill for most casual permaculturist who are doing their own thing, on their own place. Most casual users would love to attend a PDC, but can't justify either the money or the time commitment. On the other hand attending a 14 day course is not enough in itself to demonstrate enough proficiency to earn a living/be a professional permaculturist.
 
If you compare permaculture to karate or the Boy Scouts, I would rank things like this:

White Belt (karate)/Scout (Boy Scouts) - read some basic material online. (no need for a formal certificate)

Yellow Belt (karate)/ Tenderfoot (Boy Scouts) - Get a copy of Gaia's Garden or Introduction to Permaculture and study it, read these forums (no need for a formal certificate)

Orange Belt (karate)/Second Class - Attend a weekend or 3-day permaculture course, search through these forums (no need for a formal certificate)

Blue Belt (karate)/First Class - ??

Purple Belt (karate)/Star - 72 hour PDC

Brown Belt (karate)/Life ??

Black Belt (karate)/Eagle - spend 2 years being mentored 

2nd degree Black Belt - ??

I am not making any comparisons between the effort needed to achieve the scout rank vs. the karate rank vs. the education needed for the permaculture "rank", nor am I counting any self guided effort that would be bestow upon someone the equivalent knowledge and skill, I am just looking at certifications.
 
This is the area/level I think the our efforts should focus on first:  Blue Belt (karate)/First Class - ??

Maybe 32 hours of course work (pulling numbers out of my butt here) with 20 hours of standardized training and 6 hours x 2 of specialized training..maybe Urban permaculture for 6 hours and dryland permaculture for 6 hours...but offer 4 or 6 different choices and people choose 2. The material is free off the internet, and for $15 you can take a test and get a certificate, but at this level is just for your own wellbeing, the 32 hour certificate does not mean anything commercially.

TheLight wrote:
If someone wants to learn it, present the material free. If someone wants to be certified in it, presumably to teach or get credentials for a business, charge them for the test and project review. That way we get the message out there, provide high quality learning materials to all, and also provide some level of confidence to others that someone certified in permaculture actually has some clue/experience. The rate should be set so that the group can be self-sufficient in terms of postage and hosting and content generation.

Yes to all of this. 

TheLight wrote:
Also, why limit ourselves to content we create or that is licensed under the CC? The internet is a great place and part of what makes it that is the simple ability to link to other things. Although we can't link to torrents or videos of licensed materials, we can link to many youtube videos and other quality content we find. I would hope this body would go out and contact those with quality videos/meterials and ask for permission to include them. That's not to say that we shouldn't generate our own content, just that we should explore other ways of getting it as well.

Happily link away Long term though you want as much as possible to be covered under the CC license so that you're not at someone else mercy for content. If you use video from youtube, which I am all for, the owner can for whatever reason remove it from youtube or change it, also down the road you locked into using youtube and you may not want to be. No great hurry, but sooner or later you want to have control over the material.  Ant the best of both worlds is if someone gives you the OK to use existing material directly. Anything that is already covered under the CC license you can use and improve upon without having to ask, the license itself give you the right to use it.
 

TheLight wrote:
Finally, I would suggest we add the NC to the CC license. I wouldn't want to put all this effort into something only to have someone else package it up and sell it without contributing back.

If you use we used the NC designation then we as the creators could use the work in a teaching environment, but not a local community college, or nursery, or anyone we certified.; unless they were willing to teach the course for free.  I need to look into the NC aspect more, but that how it looks at first glance.

Once it's out there free, its pretty hard to get anyone to pay real money for it. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that anyone has made a real profit from once its CC licensed.

Earthgrown wrote:
Happily link away Long term though you want as much as possible to be covered under the CC license so that you're not at someone else mercy for content. If you use video from youtube, which I am all for, the owner can for whatever reason remove it from youtube or change it, also down the road you locked into using youtube and you may not want to be. No great hurry, but sooner or later you want to have control over the material.  Ant the best of both worlds is if someone gives you the OK to use existing material directly. Anything that is already covered under the CC license you can use and improve upon without having to ask, the license itself give you the right to use it.
 
If you use we used the NC designation then we as the creators could use the work in a teaching environment, but not a local community college, or nursery, or anyone we certified.; unless they were willing to teach the course for free.  I need to look into the NC aspect more, but that how it looks at first glance.

Once it's out there free, its pretty hard to get anyone to pay real money for it. I can't think of anything off the top of my head that anyone has made a real profit from once its CC licensed.

I think we're in 100% agreement on the linking vs hosting locally aspects of this. I want to leverage what we can that's already out there to get our foot in the door and give us time to build our own content. Whenever possible, we should host our own stuff, or the irrevocably licensed content of others.

On the licensing side, this is what I was thinking:

Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0)

To highlight the terms of that license from the above link...

You are free:

[li]to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work[/li]
[li]to Remix — to adapt the work[/li]

Under the following conditions:

[li]Attribution — You must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor (but not in any way that suggests that they endorse you or your use of the work).[/li]
[li]Noncommercial — You may not use this work for commercial purposes.[/li]
[li]Share Alike — If you alter, transform, or build upon this work, you may distribute the resulting work only under the same or similar license to this one.[/li]

With the understanding that:

[li]Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder.[/li]

If an individual or community college or anyone wants to use the material, all they have to do is ask and the organization can OK it.  I don't think the org would ever get rich off of the material, but you never know what we might be able to do with compilations, or DVD sales, or anything like that. The idea is to keep the most flexibility possible for later decisions.

Create a high functioning system that uses less than 8 hours per week per acre to feed a family year round and produces surplus to plant the next site and I'll kiss your sweet ass and cover you in flowers

I suspect that we need more sites, not more certificates.

Paul Cereghino wrote:
I suspect that we need more sites, not more certificates.

Agreed! That's why there's a lot of talk in this thread about using the training to generate actual permaculture projects.

I really like where this thread is going.  Great minds.

I have signed out a space on wikidot and started the outlines for a system that meets most of the ideas discussed here. Check it out at:

http://perma-cairn.wikidot.com/

If you are interested in helping develop the idea, send me a private message on this forum, or at the email address on the website.... I need to flip a switch to create a new account, which I am willing to do provided I can determine someone is not a low-life spammer. I will try to check for account requests several times a day over the weekend, but once I get back into the work-week, it may take a day or so ... and I will be deputizing some other moderators as soon as possible.