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posted 15 years ago

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yep. sorry, I'm going to subject you guys to pictures of baby goats as they come along!

meet Pinkie. a beautiful single doeling (whew) and the first baby of the year born last night to 'peggy peg leg sue'. this is her first and she has been an awesome momma! I wonder if I will ever stop being excited about baby goats? peggy may not be around as long as some other because her one good front leg will probably not hold up to a typical lifetime. she is a sweet girl and nice breeding animal and I was glad to know I have at least one doeling out of her! (I was afraid I would just get buck after buck until I had to put her down because her good leg gave out)

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Gwen Lynn

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posted 15 years ago

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Congrats & happy Valentine's Day. I cannot think of a better present for you!

Susan Monroe

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posted 15 years ago

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Nice baby! Nice mommy!

Sue

Leah Sattler

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posted 15 years ago

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House goat!!! twins born on friday but on saturday afternoon the little doeling was cold and hungry. momma goat is for sale

second year in a row that I don't think she has made adequate milk amounts, enough that they don't die but not enough for fast growth. the buckling is much more aggresive and this time I think he was getting it all.

the little doeling 'micah' will hopefull not have her mothers faults because her father has strong dairy genes. I am keeping her as a bottle baby and trying to trade or sell the doe and the buckling. the doe very well could do fine if she was grained but my goal is grain free goats (and no bottle babies..what a pain) so she has to go!

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Susan Monroe

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posted 15 years ago

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Ah, a bottle baby, just what you needed right now!

Sue

Leah Sattler

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posted 15 years ago

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ha ha ha ha! of course, who doesn't need a goat to bottle feed while moving, making repairs on and old home, showing that home to prospective buyers while trying to keep it squeaky clean with 4 dogs two cats and a four year old, as essentially a single mom during the week (husband in ft. smith) while taking care of and kidding out more does one of which will soon be critical that i catch the kids and bottle feed because of CAE! hmmmm I'm bored. I need something to do...

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Susan Monroe

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posted 15 years ago

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Leah, if you run out of things to do, please come to my house and clean it for me. Housework is really low on my list. Come to think of it, it may not even BE on my list. And I can't find the list anyway, because the place is a mess.

Sue

Leah Sattler

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posted 15 years ago

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two bucks on saturday and a dead momma on monday morning.

bucks are sold.

I knew something wasn't right with her. I opened her up yesterday night to see if it was a retained placenta or kid or something. didn't find anything. I think she must have had internal bleeding or the vet mentioned a displaced abomasum as a possibility. RIP bell.

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"One cannot help an involuntary process. The point is not to disturb it. - Dr. Michel Odent

Jocelyn Campbell

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posted 15 years ago

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Wow, Leah, what a roller coaster with the goats! I can now better see how the idea of moving during this time was/is rather complicated!

My best to you and yours.

QuickBooks set up and Bookkeeping for Small Businesses and Farms - jocelyncampbell.com

Leah Sattler

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thank you jocelyn. its not even that it makes for much more real work its just mentally distracting. had two more born yesterday morning! two bucks from my lamancha doe. I guess if I want another lamancha doe I am just going to have to buy one, this is the second year in a row she threw two bucks and my patience is gone.

I so wish the one in the front was a girl, I love the coloring!

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Gwen Lynn

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posted 15 years ago

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Wow...more bucks! Maybe there's too much testosterone in your water?

Susan Monroe

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posted 15 years ago

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Leah, have you ever had a soil test done? Did you get a lot of rain this winter?

A couple of years ago, I was reading that soil (and thus the pasture or feed) that is low in calcium tends to cause the production of male animals. Later in the year, more females are born because the pasture growth may have grown downward and absorbed enough calcium that had been washed out of shallow-root reach.

I was talking to an old farmer-girl friend of mine here, and she said her turkeys always produce more males in early spring, and more females in summer.

Think?

Sue

Leah Sattler

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posted 15 years ago

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well I blew that idea out of the water then. my goats were all on free choice alfalfa when they were bred which is really high in calcium.

I did read something pertaining to horses once. the theory is that evolutionarily speaking it is a better gamble to have female offspring during periods of time that conditions are less then favorable. the idea is that almost every female that lives will get a chance to pass on her genetics through birth at least once. wherein few males get a chance to breed although if they do they hit the genetic jackpot of numerous offspring every year. the gamble to get to pass your genes on is better in good times with male offspring when there is a higher likely hood of living long enough to become a dominant stallion and actually get to breed some mares.

this might have some application/or pertain to the human population in my opinion. I have read (not followed up) that their is a shortage of females because the birth ratios of sex are skewed. thinking along these lines maybe our "overconditioned"

society has inadvertantly selected for producing male babies.

maybe in my endeavor to have extra healthy well fed goats I have been indadvertantly producing more males. next year I shall try backing off the feed to keep them healthy but on a slight downward conditioning trend durring breeding. (does that make sense) of course next year they should be on browse, yeah!!! and will have to work for more of their food and not just stand at a feeder and eat like pigs. lilly is my milker and so I pay special attention to keeping her in good condition and with lots of feed. she has produced 5 males and 1 female in her life.

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Leah Sattler

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posted 15 years ago

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my lilly died.

rushed her to the vet friday morning. septicemia due to metritis. after he showed me the uterus I know also that the other died of the same thing. I need to call the people I sold the jsut freshened doe to and see if she came down with a uterine infection also as I sold her before she even hit the 48 hr mark which is about when the others became extremely ill. something is wrong. the vet is not much help and just gave me some excenel (pricey antibiotic) to give to each of my does when they freshen and then two days later. I asked what was I supposed to do? start giving antibiotics at freshening on a routine basis?? he said "well, if I didn't tell you to and more died you would be mad at me". he didn't have any more words of wisdom after that other than "extreme cleanliness if you have to go in" . I suspect selenium deficiency is preventing them from cleaning properly after the births but he of course said he saw no signs of mineral deficiency. uhm...... you mean like other than my does are dead???!!! all within 3 days of freshening! two in a row!!! that is not a coincidence. or if it is it is one hellava freak. I switched my mineral mix last fall and I am going back to the old one. I don't know what else to do. the vet didn't think I should do the bo-se injections. I am sad and mad and frustrated. and I feel powerless. I told the vet I would see him around the 21st when the next one was 'due' to die.

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Brenda Groth

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posted 15 years ago

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I am so sorry that you lost your babies

Brenda

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Kathleen Sanderson

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posted 15 years ago

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Leah, can you get selenium shots from the vet and give to all the does immediately? If you can't, 1. start feeding them sunflower seeds (high in Vit. E, which behaves similarly to selenium in the body), and 2. dose them with Vit. E tablets. I'm sure your mineral mix must have selenium in it. Three years ago I had to take a doe to the vet because she delivered one kid, and then stopped having contractions, but I KNEW there were more kids in there (this was a 2-y-o Kinder doe -- they tend to have litters, and she was big-bellied). I went fishing for them, and couldn't even feel any, so I took her to the vet who reached WAY in and pulled out a nice healthy doeling and buckling! I'm sure that the reason she stopped having contractions was a selenium deficiency, as it causes poor muscle tone. I use a mineral mix now that's higher in selenium than the one I had then.

Kathleen

Susan Monroe

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posted 15 years ago

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I'm sorry you've lost your girls. I sure isn't what you needed at this point in time!

It's an awfully strange coincidence, two in such a very short time.

I was doing a bit of googling... You're familiar with GoatWorld.com?

"It is believed that healthy animals given a balanced diet will not be affected by metritis. More specifically, the lack of vitamins A and D may play an important role in lowering the risk of metritis."
http://www.goatworld.com/articles/metritis/

"Cured by sulphanilamide by mouth, sulphamezathine, sulphapyridine or sulphanidine tablets 2g twice a day for 4-5 days. " (same site, another page)

From book Sheep and Goat Medicine by David G. Pugh:
"Metritis is uncommon in sheep and goats but is encountered in dairy goat breeds and in association with RFM, dystocia, retained dead lambs or kids, abortion caused by toxoplasmosis, chlamydiosis, and listerosis, and possibly other diseases. A retained placenta may serve as a 'wick' between the environment and the uterus."

From Pat Coleby's book Natural Goat Care (but the excerpt below is about cattle; while the info may be correct, dosages are not):
"Metritis and other conditions affecting the uterus are mainly caused by a lack of vitamin A. In a bad year with much dry weather there are often quite a few affected animals, as they will not have had enough green grass to obtain the necessary vitamin A. There will be a predisposition to metritis in stock on chemically manured paddocks as the chemicals interfere with the synthesis of vitamin A, and the cattle do not receive as much as they should.

Any animal with metritis should be put on a course of vitamin A in some form or other. Vitamin A, D and E injections are suitable as prescribed on the bottle, or an A and D (cod liver oil) drench, 20 ml twice a week if possible, will work. Cattle usually take the oral dose quite well on feed. Vitamin C will also help clear up the infection; use either 7.5 to 10 grams by injection every other day for a cow or 12 grams orally every day in the feed for a week."

I don't know if any of this would be useful, or if you already know it.

Sue

Leah Sattler

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thank you thank you !! no I had never heard that about the vit A!
i had to go home right after she died and start loading the uhaul and I jsut haven't even had time to sit and research this so the time you spent for me is very much appreciated. a and d injections is going on the list. I suspected it was likely due to a change in my mineral last fall and that just makes for more evidence although the vet didn't believe me. I'm so mad at myself. the vet basically said I didn't need the bo-se injections (selenium/vit e) when I asked for it and just wanted to sell me the antibiotic

. I am sure the sulfa drugs would not have been adequate in these cases this came on fast and hard. the few things I have managed to read all say that metritis usually comes on 1-2 weeks after kidding and is first noticed with an off doe and smelly discharge. these girls were more than off within 48hrs of kidding and dead soon after. lilly got penicillin as close to inside her cervix as I could get as well as injections as per the reccomendations of a contact on the goat 911 site thursday night thats thats all I had on hand and it was late, it is widely considered useless for anything serious. we are back at the old house today and I am going to get my old mineral (manna pro) and will get the vit a injections also for awhile. I'm just sick about this. my poor lilly. I knew she was going while I was waiting for the vet at his office and asked his wife for a gun but it wasn't like my .22 at home and dumbass me is not experienced enough with guns to feel comfortable trying to figure out how to load and use it under pressure so I just sat at her head talking to her while she died. I couldn't even put her out of her misery. I hate myself for that. I'm going to make someone take me out and practice loading and using every gun we own and any I can borrow. I want to be able to pick up anything and know how to use it.

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Susan Monroe

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posted 15 years ago

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sigh

Maybe in your new place, you will find a vet that suits you and your animals better. Maybe a naturopathic one? My vet has been getting more into that.

Sue

Kathleen Sanderson

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posted 15 years ago

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Changes in feed or minerals can have devastating effects that don't show up until the animals are stressed (as in birthing). One year, we and some neighbors had been going together to buy feed for our sheep so we could get a better price, and we both had some blind lambs. Turned out the formula for the pellets we were feeding had been changed, and quite a few people had blind lambs that year....Often, the only way you know something is missing is when something like that happens, or when you lose an animal or two (or more, but I hope the rest of yours do well).

Your babies sure are cute. My milker is part Boer (3/16), and I love the coloring. Here's a picture of her when she was a baby. She's in labor now -- I've got to run back out and check on her. Wish she could have waited until next weekend when it is supposed to be warmer.

Kathleen

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Leah Sattler

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posted 15 years ago

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she is beautiful freeholder. is she a good milker? I am hoping to put baby micah on the milk stand next year to see what she got. but I am not waiting to find out if she is worth milking, I will buy another dairy goat. I think I can I think I can..... it really is depressing that I had to have two goats die to find out my mineral isn't adequate. first one of course I chalked up to simple fate/luck and wouldn't have searched too far for answers, it took two to make it clear that more was going on.

sue- unfortunatley finding a vet that will deal with goats and knows anything about goats is hard. I have only seen 'natural' vets when I was in california at the winter show circuit in indio. this is the reccomended goat vet in the area. my dog/cat vet will discuss with me and even try to work on one but he really doesn't know diddly about goats. two others won't even return my phone calls if the message mentions 'goats'.

this vet reccomended a vet in salisaw (near our new place) but went on to say that he was "a really good horse vet". perfect (detect the sarcasm?) horse vets don't like goats they want people with 100,000 dollar horses that will drop 10 grand into them in a heartbeat and pay them to do everything down to the most basic vaccinations and wormings. a vet call to worm and vaccinate a goat would cost more than the goat is worth. so far it boils down to goat people figuring our most things for themselves unless you happen to be near langston university. I was warned many many times when I first got into goats that the vets are almost useless and they are mostly surgical back up and a source of presription meds. this guy is a perfect example. he woulnd''t even entertain the thought that this was a mineral problem. my dog and cat vet wouldn't even entertain the idea that the parasites were resistant to fenbendazole. my horse vet actual snorted in amusement when I asked him about goats or a vet reccomendation he said "my daughter is in to 'exotics' maybe she would help you" (she's a vet now also and a childhood freind)

sorry to be so pessimistic. its just that I have found forums and experienced goat people to be waaaaay more helpful then vets. even if I found a vet willing to acknowledge that minerals are ultra important and try to treat animals by working withthe body I would probably have to totally educate them about goats or even ruminants so what is the point......I am also afraid of the other end of the spectrum of not using modern meds when it is warranted and just have someone crush up some flowers and light incense......

what kills me is that yes in this case powerful antibiotics would have been warranted but that is to buy time and save an individual case whilst figuring out the cause. it shouldn't be the end of treament or discovery.

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Susan Monroe

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posted 15 years ago

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Leah, that's because you're looking at the Big Picture. And I'm afraid that you're in the minority. America has turned into the Knee-Jerk and Quick-Fix center of the world.

That's one thing I like about my vet. He does all animals except rabbits (he's allergic) and poultry. He was making his annual visit at my Old Farmer-Girl friend's place (goats and dogs), and he said if all his clients took care of their animals like she does, he would be out of business. He likes to go with the homeopathic remedies unless mainline treatment appears best for the animal. He says most problems with most animals always lead back to faulty nutrition.

Sue

Leah Sattler

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Susan Monroe wrote:
He says most problems with most animals always lead back to faulty nutrition.

Sue

I beleive that whole heartedly. of course there are non nutrition related disease and times when the body just goes awry for no discernable reason. but it is so frustrating when people/vets/docters don't even try to examine why things happen. my reg feed store doesn't carry the a&d injections anymore so that is my quest today. or cod liver oil. no idea where to buy that. call me crazy but I have been feeding carrots to the next one due everyday until I can find something else with higher concentrations of vit. a

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Susan Monroe

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Cod liver oil is usually available at nutritional supplement stores, liquid and capsule. Be sure to check dose so you don't overdo it.

Even WalMart carries it.

Sue

Leah Sattler

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posted 15 years ago

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I found vit A caplets at walmart. the cod liver caplets had about 1/6 the amount of vit A so I went with the plain vit A caplets. I am going to dose like a human. one caplet a day. I just want to make sure they are over the threshhold for deficiency.

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Kathleen Sanderson

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I've had problems finding a good goat vet, too. Thankfully we haven't needed one very often, but when you do need one, it's serious! We have a pretty good vet now -- she's a large-animal vet, not just a horse vet, and since quite a few people around here have goats and/or sheep, she does know them pretty well. We're in a cattle-ranching and farming area, so while there are some high-dollar horses, there are more working horses, cattle, and so on.

And you are so right that most ailments are nutritional in one way or another.

Leah, you asked if my little doe that I posted a picture of is a good milker -- yes, she's two days fresh and giving nearly a gallon a day already. She had twins, a doe and a buck -- I'm going to try to get pictures in a few minutes (my mother is coming, and she wants pictures, so I'm going to see if I can figure out how my camera works!). My doe's mother, who was 3/8 Boer, peaked at 14 lbs. a day as a five-year-old, and could have been milked through, so she had a good long lactation (purebred Boers usually only lactate until their kids are weaned). I think I'll keep this new doeling -- I'd like to see how she turns out. There's a lot of milk in my buck's lines (a grandmother was a top ten milker twice, and he had a great-grandmother who was on the top ten list, also).

I've just been out and took some pictures; will try to post them later.

Kathleen

Leah Sattler

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thats good to know freeholder! maybe my little micah will be worth milking.

I have been told now by several experienced goat people that it is very unusual for them to have died of septic metritis so quickly and nobody seems to have any idea why it would happen. something a bit strange is going on or it is a really really bizarre coincidence.

I contacted a gentleman at langston university who referred me to a gentleman at oklahoma state university. I didn't get up the stones to call him but apparently the very helpful man at langston had forwarded my email to him and the Dr. from OSU contacted me via email asking for the details surrounding the deaths. I got that off to him yesterday evening. if anyone can help me find out anything it will probably be this guy.

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Kathleen Sanderson

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It will be interesting to hear what you learn from him. It's bad enough to lose an animal for known causes; it's worrisome to lose one or more to unknown causes. At least if you know what's going on, you can usually figure out how to fix the problem.

I recently re-arranged my desk and the computer, and am not sure what I did with the cord that connects the camera to the computer so I can download pictures. So, pictures of my little ones will have to wait. And, I need to go milk their mother!

Kathleen

Leah Sattler

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haven' heard back from the the doc. oh well.

had two little bucklings born saturday. one is a gorgeous paint. my daughter instantly named him "black booty". he isn't black but his colored areas are a dark dark seal brown. if I could fiure out how to get pics on here with a library puter I would post one but I'm afraid that will have to wait. I went ahead and gave the doe the excenel. wish the vet would have warned me how thick that stuff was so I could have got more than a 22g needle!

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Leah Sattler

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'black booty'

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Kathleen Sanderson

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Very pretty babies, Leah!

Kathleen

Leah Sattler

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wiggles and speckles! they are two doelings out of my buck and a freinds doe. the doe is cae postitive, my friend decided she can't handle meat goats (too cute) and I hadn't had any doelings from my buck so I bought them! 3 bottles babies now. I am inducing elfmate (also cae positive) and she should have her babies tuesday. if they are does that could be two more bottle babies. I put $ down on two lamancha does that I am picking up at a show in littlerock may 1 and that will be two more aaaaahhhhhh. time for a lambar. the size difference us crazy compared to micah in the back but she was just as small only seven weeks ago.

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Susan Monroe

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Why do people keep breeding CAE-positive animals?

Sue

Leah Sattler

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that is a really good question. I bought two nubians that were supposed to be bottle fed presumably (dummy me) for cae prevention. I bred them but decided to test my whole herd plus my freinds (who by that time had bought one of the nubians) two doelings. I had two doelings that had nursed one nubian (sold into who knows where to spread the disease) as well as the one I sold this now freind.

however. the main reason for breeding a cae positive animal are to get the genetics. imagine you just spent 500$ on a nice dairy goat that turns up cae postive. are you just going to shoot her? you could in five months possibly have one or more doelings out of her to keep the whole business from being a waste. but There are lots of nice goats raised on prevention or from test negative animals (sometimes they can turn positive later) out there to buy. they also have a price tag to match that marketing feature and testing isn't accurate till they are at least 6 months old. you have to have alot of trust in the breeder to know they are cae neg. and in utero transmission appears to be rare but possible ....or people are just lying about catching kids, both to themselves and others...thats my personal guess. if in utero or lateral transmission were common or easy it would still be as prevalant as it was.

I have essentially two years worth of feed in elfmate. her dam as well as her. I would have bred her even had I known she was cae positive beforehand. all my kids will be tested now before breeding so I can make a decision on whether the quality of the animal and the feed, time and effort to kid them out is justified if they are postitive by some unlucky stroke. lucy isn't not worth it. I only want her paint genes and I have decided that is not enough justification.

when cae first became reckognized somewhere between 80-90% of dairy goats had it. raising kids on cae prevention became the norm. people couldn't just kill off 90% of the dairy goats. testing was less than accurate then also. there are now more sensitive and therefore accurate tests available.

there is some redundency in the cae negative goat market. many places test for cae and raise on prevention (no access to the dam from the moment they are born) and raising bottle babies is expensive.

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Susan Monroe

Posts: 1093

Location: Western WA

posted 15 years ago

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I don't know much about goats (I can usually recognize one when I see one), and nothing about CAE.

I recently read an article on Newman Turner in Acres USA, and just now when I googled 'Newman Turner CAE', this site and article popped up. You're probably familiar with the site..... http://www.dairygoatsplus.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=276

Anyway, Newman Turner was a farmer who cured things like Johnes Disease with good pasture, minerals and nutrition. I wonder if that is possible with CAE? Just a thought... with nothing behind it.....

Sue

Leah Sattler

Posts: 2603

posted 15 years ago

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cae is a virus that works similiarly to aids. they even tried to use it to help block the aids virus since it uses the same recepters or something like that I am not even slightly educated in that aspect. it cannot be cured........well except with .22

. symptoms I am sure can be mitigated but that is not the same as a cure.

http://www.jaids.com/pt/re/jaids/fulltext.00126334-199905010-00029.htm;jsessionid=Jkfc9nnJsvdRFQTcpZNDcW26sjZqX12MMRpp5HnctFT2DZpGjT10!1553038018!181195628!8091!-1

I found something about newman turner having written a book 50 years ago. until recently I think diagnosis of johnes was made only at necropsy so I don't think he could have confirmed a diagnoses before he cured it. its a wasting disease so its symptoms are simliar to just about any illness or malnutrition. if he did he cure it teh medical feild needs to know asap. johnes is also likly the same as crohns which screws up many people. it has also been found to survive pasteurization.....

http://www.das.psu.edu/dairy/nutrition/pdf/whitlock-johnes-crohns.pdf

even now ....... just found....

"Signs of the disease are wasting, diarrhea and recurring ill thrift — have the vet take a blood test. However, the only really sure diagnosis is on post mortem since Johne’s disease can show a false positive on a blood test." http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/press/cattle11.htm

great disease to "cure". of course, healthy animals immune systems can fight off many diseases or at least keep symptoms at bay. but thats different than a cure. they can be infecting vulnerable animals (young/ immune compromised) and perpetuating the disease throughout their life time.

http://www.das.psu.edu/dairy/nutrition

"Elaine, one of the leased milkers that remained, suddenly dropped in condition with frightening speed. It was a classic case of Johne’s disease as I then found out when I got the vet to her. I never admit a disease is unbeatable until I’ve tried everything. In this case I gave her massive amounts of vitamin C injections (which is what doctors who know use for Crohn’s disease). She was already getting her minerals. She recovered completely. But I later found out that she came from a long line of goats all of whom had developed Johne’s disease and died in their turn. When the lease ran out, I asked for Elaine to have a full post mortem when she died. The post mortem showed absolutely no signs of the disease. She was the only member of her line not to die of it."

so was a post mortem done on every goat in this line? or was the assumption made they had and died of johnes? as you know....I don't believe anything

I officially withhold an opinion beyond....it doesn't appear that anyone has been able to cure johnes when following strict accepted methods in making that determination including controls and accurate diagnostic testing or been able to achieve reproducable and verifiable results. the claims so far seem to be backed up by laymens anecdotal evidence.

sorry that probably more than you bargained for

as you can tell I have some interest in this sort of thing for some reason. its fascinating and disturbing and frustrating. like a good mystery novel.

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