Advice on starting a permaculture landscaping business

Hello, all! I have this growing desire to start a permaculture landscape business. What I mean is: I want to start a landscape company that makes urban (or not so urban) residential landscapes more sustainable and edible. Currently I am working as a landscaper. I've never started a business before, much less a permaculture business. I wonder if there is any demand in my area for edible Landscapes, food forests, restoring the soil, composting, water harvesting.

Has anybody done anything of this sort before? How did you get started? What equipment did you use? How did you find clients? Did you have to educate people in order for them to want something other than an ornamental landscape?

Some general thoughts and questions for you.

1) How are you defining urban ? In the US this typically means the inner city ... there isn't much land here which isn't owned by the "public"
2) a permaculture business isn't any different than a normal business ... it has simply chosen to adhere to permaculture ethics and principles.
3) To find demand why not try asking people or canvasing areas you think you will work in to see what reactions you get ... you don't need to own a business to determine if there is demand first.
4) Realize most people won't know what permaculture is or even care to know ... don't use this word less the client already knows it, seriously. Rebrand it as something else that targets your market.  "Would you be interested in landscape which is functional and feeds you?" "Do you want a little oasis you can retreat to in the city (this for those fortunate to own a balcony or a small plot of sand behind their row home) to escape to after coming home from work" etc etc ...

You can "sell" permaculture and have an ethics base company without "selling" the word ...

On that note I would find other local small business owners ... create a business plan, present it to them, etc ... you could run it past jack spirko if you want a no-nonsense response. He also has a couple podcasts on the topic of "permaculture businesses" ... if your concern is the business side of it start there while trying to find your niche.

For the latter you need to ask yourself "what would people who interested in XYZ also do" and then target those activities if it makes sense to find clients. Example: ... lets say you are targeting upper middle class city moms who live in a townhouse which have small postage stamp back yards where the HOA doesn't care what they do ... then find what activities they do ... do they do spin classes, farmers markets, wine tasting, etc ... know your target audience then go to their social events and introduce yourself that way to future clients.

Nate Hornbrook wrote:I wonder if there is any demand in my area for edible Landscapes, food forests, restoring the soil, composting, water harvesting.

I think this is your place to start. As a landscaper you probably have (or could acquire) info on who your clients would be, what kind of demand there would be, and how you could access this client base. There's no point starting a business if you have no clients, no interest, or if your potential clients can't pay you.
If you live in a place with water shortages, water harvesting could be a hot topic. If you live in a place where fruit is appreciated and grows well, and you have an active farmers market (showing interest in food) that might be a way to access people interested in planting their own food forests and maybe buying fruit tree starts. Talking to people buying seedlings in spring could give you ideas of how people are already growing (and what they might be open to trying).
Is the area developing, with new houses being built? Or are people moving out to your area in the country to start homesteads? Both offer very different opportunities.

I run two businesses and I'm a strong believer in market intelligence. It stops you from wasting time, effort and money pursuing things that won't get you a return. First, assess the environment. Then your potential clients, then the market need. Not to say that if your market is a buy-big-ag-starts-and-toxic-gick-from-home-depot place that you need to do the same, but meaning that you need to think about your clients and meet them in a place where they feel comfortable enough to give you money, and maybe even try something new.

I've been landscaping my dad's front yard in the city and getting constant compliments from passers-by.  My dad lives on a cul-de-sac, so there isn't much traffic.  I think a few projects in prominent areas could garner plenty of business.  I think the key will be the ability to blend the permaculture design with the feeling of the rest of the neighborhood, so it doesn't look awkwardly out of place.

https://permies.com/t/128295/permaculture-projects/Urban-permaculture-project-San-Antonio

I've been thinking of doing the same thing. More on a larger scale for folks with larger properties. Installing swales, ponds and so on. I still need to buy a rotating laser transit and use in conjunction with my excavator.. Plus I have a degree in Horticultural practices and am starting a permaculture food forest nursery here at home. I just need to work on advertising etc...

Nate Hornbrook wrote:Hello, all! I have this growing desire to start a permaculture landscape business. What I mean is: I want to start a landscape company that makes urban (or not so urban) residential landscapes more sustainable and edible. Currently I am working as a landscaper. I've never started a business before, much less a permaculture business. I wonder if there is any demand in my area for edible Landscapes, food forests, restoring the soil, composting, water harvesting.

Has anybody done anything of this sort before? How did you get started? What equipment did you use? How did you find clients? Did you have to educate people in order for them to want something other than an ornamental landscape?

Nate, I’ve had this same idea recently as well! I have never done landscaping for money though, just work on my own property. I’m curious, where are you located and how is this coming along? Please keep us updated!

Brody Ekberg wrote:
Nate, I’ve had this same idea recently as well! I have never done landscaping for money though, just work on my own property. I’m curious, where are you located and how is this coming along? Please keep us updated!

Thanks for asking Brody! Everyone's comments are really helping me think this through. I live in Lynchburg, VA and after taking with several people in my area, I have come up with a plan. What do you think?

I would do a soft launch selling and building herb spirals. Herb spirals are inovative in my area and I think they would be easy to sell as beautiful and efficient raised bed gardens. As I am building relationships with clients, I hope to sell other ideas to them such as edible landscapes and food forests and rain water harvesting etc. My dream job right now would be to have mostly local clients that are so close I could walk or ride my bike to their house and we create a friendly neighborhood community around growing and sharing food... but not sure how realistic that is yet.

We bought a house in August and so we are just getting started growing a food forest and herb spiral at my own house. So I don't think I'll be able to quit my job this year and fully launch a business but instead it'll be a side hustle for a while (unless demand for my services explodes).

What do you think? Am I missing anything?

Bonus question: would a door-to-door survey be a good idea to measure the interest in my neighborhood or should I just go door-to-door selling the herbal spirals?

Door to door anything scares the patootie out of me. I think you would get a lot better mileage seeing if you could build (and maintain) a spiral in a public place with lots of visibility-- library yard, daycare center yard, etc. Maybe even a house yard, somewhere visible. Make up a nice sign with your info. A great way to meet people in your new community too. Generally, people are pretty open to this sort of thing if they don't have to do the work.

With the possible pandemic spread of Corona virus, many folks are going to avoid contact with strangers at their doors. I'd make some flyers and door hangers promoting your business.

Since you mentioned that you hope to stay in your neighborhood, you can also make a post on FB marketplace and target your area, and then there is the local craigslist, too. There is also something called nextdoor.com which allows people in an area to communicate with one another. Lynchburg is likely a part of it. You can post there to allow your neighborhood to know what you are offering. I don't know the rules since I don't belong to it, but it may be worth looking into to see if there is some way to make a service offer/ business post.
Good luck with your venture- it sounds like a great idea!

Nate Hornbrook wrote:

Brody Ekberg wrote:
Nate, I’ve had this same idea recently as well! I have never done landscaping for money though, just work on my own property. I’m curious, where are you located and how is this coming along? Please keep us updated!

Thanks for asking Brody! Everyone's comments are really helping me think this through. I live in Lynchburg, VA and after taking with several people in my area, I have come up with a plan. What do you think?

I would do a soft launch selling and building herb spirals. Herb spirals are inovative in my area and I think they would be easy to sell as beautiful and efficient raised bed gardens. As I am building relationships with clients, I hope to sell other ideas to them such as edible landscapes and food forests and rain water harvesting etc. My dream job right now would be to have mostly local clients that are so close I could walk or ride my bike to their house and we create a friendly neighborhood community around growing and sharing food... but not sure how realistic that is yet.

We bought a house in August and so we are just getting started growing a food forest and herb spiral at my own house. So I don't think I'll be able to quit my job this year and fully launch a business but instead it'll be a side hustle for a while (unless demand for my services explodes).

What do you think? Am I missing anything?

Bonus question: would a door-to-door survey be a good idea to measure the interest in my neighborhood or should I just go door-to-door selling the herbal spirals?

I think you’ve got yourself a pretty cool thing going! I really dont think any door to door tactics would be necessary or even preferable. I agree with local craigs list, facebook groups, flyers posted in public places...and i like the idea that was mentioned of trying to build one at a public library or something similar.

I am super curious how it goes for you now that you bought a house. When we bought ours, I was full of passion and inspiration and didnt realize how expensive (to both buy and maintain!) a house is. It sucks up a lot of my time and as of now, I need my full time job to pay for it along with other debts. We too want to grow a food forest at our house, but it has been kind of lagging with everything else going on. I intend on planting trees this spring, but we also need a roof and windows, so we will see!

Nate, how are things coming along? I’m still working my full time job and tossing around the idea of starting a sustainable, edible landscape business. I’m very curious how you proceed and how it all goes!

Tereza Okava wrote:
I run two businesses and I'm a strong believer in market intelligence. It stops you from wasting time, effort and money pursuing things that won't get you a return. First, assess the environment. Then your potential clients, then the market need. Not to say that if your market is a buy-big-ag-starts-and-toxic-gick-from-home-depot place that you need to do the same, but meaning that you need to think about your clients and meet them in a place where they feel comfortable enough to give you money, and maybe even try something new.

Not trying to take over this post, but as someone who has started businesses, I’m curious your opinion on this:

I’ve been considering starting permaculture type landscaping business like Nate, because I look at where my passions, values and income opportunities interect. I dont think following money will ever lead to happiness. And blindly following passions only works once in a while, and can be less than profitable. But aligning money, value and passion sounds like the golden ticket. When I wake up (if it isn’t winter or pouring rain) I want to design, build and maintain gardens, food forests and the land in general. Whether money exists or not, that is what I want to do with my time in this body. So, that leads to landscaping business...

BUT... when I consider start up costs, balancing home life, my current job and a new business venture, the landscaping business sound pretty rough. Plus, it would be seasonal considering we’re buried under snow half the year.

A different previous business idea that my wife and I very seriously considered and started planning (covid put a damper on the process) is a fermentation business. Ideally buying as locally sourced vegetables as possible and selling them as locally as possible. Ideally being organic as well. There is definitely a market and demand for this already. I have experience fermenting foods for years and everyone seems to love what I create. I’ve worked in the food industry before and am sort of familiar with it (not from an owner perspective but worker). We also feel that start up costs would be lower, time required to produce a “product” would probably be shorter, and balancing between everything else during start up would probably be easier. I dont wake up wanting to ferment vegetables in the morning... but it is much more closely aligned with the land, wellness and sustainability than my utility job. And it would provide community connections to consumers, farmers, gardeners and other businesses.

I’m not asking you what I should do, but what is your opinion? What sounds like a safer, more reliable and better fit for my situation based off of what you know about starting and running a business?

I've actually been following your other thread and thinking about responding but not quite getting around to it.
1. I am not a fan of doing what you love for work. Doing what you can accept for work, sure, but trying to make money from what I do for fun, drains the fun out of it, as you found with hunting and fishing. (I've found this to be true for writing fiction, crafting, and food, not saying it can't be done, just that I didn't like them as much anymore).
2. You say there is a market for fermentation. I assume you know that since there is some market activity for it. What can you offer that is different? Would clients be willing to move from the current product to yours? What niches are waiting to be filled? How does this fit with legal requirements about licensing, food regulations, etc?  
3. Similarly, with landscaping- what could you offer that is not being offered right now? Are there people who are still looking for landscaping services, considering the current economic situation? What makes your product different? How does that fit with equipment you might need to buy/finance/etc?
I'm a big fan of observing. Observe patterns and see where you can fit in to take advantage of need that exists. Running your own business involves risk and stomachaches and, occasionally, spending a shocking amount of money when there is no guarantee you are going to make it back (this past year has been disastrous for my husband's business, and the salaries still had to be paid. We've got backups and further backups and even more backup plans, so we've been okay. But still, there have been some sleepless nights). Do your due diligence, research first, it's the most important lab report you're ever going to do. Then sit down with people whose opinion you value and see what they can add.

Brody - before you get too invested in a fermentation business, look into local food safety regulations, and how much it costs to meet them.  Also look for cottage business laws that might exempt small businesses from some of the regulations.  In my area, meeting the food safety requirements to sell goat milk would typically cost upwards of $15,000, so folks with goats usually sell goat milk soap instead.  Food safety laws and regulations can be really onerous.

Jess Dee wrote:Brody - before you get too invested in a fermentation business, look into local food safety regulations, and how much it costs to meet them.  Also look for cottage business laws that might exempt small businesses from some of the regulations.  In my area, meeting the food safety requirements to sell goat milk would typically cost upwards of $15,000, so folks with goats usually sell goat milk soap instead.  Food safety laws and regulations can be really onerous.

I’ve done a decent amount of looking into the legal aspect of producing, storing and selling fermented products. We’re in Michigan and according to the state inspector (who is also a friend, so very helpful with a lot of this information) Michigan is horrible with food laws. I’d have to look back over my noted, but I think the 2 licenses we would need would be less than $300/year. And unfortunately, fermented foods are not included in the cottage food laws here, so we need a licensed commercial kitchen to produce it in. We can hopefully find kitchen space to rent for this, but need to look into that because this has all fallen out of my mind since the pandemic started.

Brody Ekberg wrote:We can hopefully find kitchen space to rent for this, but need to look into that because this has all fallen out of my mind since the pandemic started.

I have heard of people renting from churches, summer camps, and social centers (with certified kitchens) which are all suffering right now due to the pandemic and might appreciate an income stream. Might be worth checking out what's around nearby.

Tereza Okava wrote:I've actually been following your other thread and thinking about responding but not quite getting around to it.
1. I am not a fan of doing what you love for work. Doing what you can accept for work, sure, but trying to make money from what I do for fun, drains the fun out of it, as you found with hunting and fishing. (I've found this to be true for writing fiction, crafting, and food, not saying it can't be done, just that I didn't like them as much anymore).
2. You say there is a market for fermentation. I assume you know that since there is some market activity for it. What can you offer that is different? Would clients be willing to move from the current product to yours? What niches are waiting to be filled? How does this fit with legal requirements about licensing, food regulations, etc?  
3. Similarly, with landscaping- what could you offer that is not being offered right now? Are there people who are still looking for landscaping services, considering the current economic situation? What makes your product different? How does that fit with equipment you might need to buy/finance/etc?
I'm a big fan of observing. Observe patterns and see where you can fit in to take advantage of need that exists. Running your own business involves risk and stomachaches and, occasionally, spending a shocking amount of money when there is no guarantee you are going to make it back (this past year has been disastrous for my husband's business, and the salaries still had to be paid. We've got backups and further backups and even more backup plans, so we've been okay. But still, there have been some sleepless nights). Do your due diligence, research first, it's the most important lab report you're ever going to do. Then sit down with people whose opinion you value and see what they can add.

Thanks for such a quick response, and I’m very glad to have gotten your opinion!

1. I agree that if I were to do the landscaping business, I risk ruining my life purpose. I feel that, so long as I’m in this body, I should be (and want to be) connecting back to the land, getting dirty, working towards sustainability and motivating others to do the same. If I depended on that for income and maybe did it 8-12 hours a day, maybe I would no longer feel compelled to do that work at home. I guess that’s neither good nor bad so long as I’m doing the work elsewhere. I doubt I would start to despise it or view it as a “job”, but who knows how I’d actually feel.
2. When I say there’s a market for fermented food, I’m basing that off of the increase in awareness of gut microbiome’s effect on mental and physical health, the increase in demand for probiotics, my own experience seeing others get introduced to fermented foods. Also hearing people express interest in fermenting their own and changing their diet and health. As far as I know, nobody in this city, county or all adjacent counties offer any fermented foods for sale. The most local that I know of is a state away from us, and most of what is available in stores (which isn’t much around here, so little to no competition right now) comes from across the country. I would want to partner with local farms to grow organic vegetables within a couple hundred miles (maybe even a lot less) of us, and I would sell as much product as possible as close to home as possible. Obviously reaching out farther based off of how much we’re selling and how much money we’re trying to make. But I’m all about local sustainable food systems and community. And as for the licensing, its a little bit of a pain, but not that expensive or complicated from what I’ve been told and read about. With landscaping, I would want to focus on organic, perennials, natives and edibles, keeping permaculture concepts in mind. But, there are several landscaping businesses within an hour of us. I dont know if they have the same values, but there’s definite competition.
3. Ive done almost no research about landscaping businesses... this is a fresh idea that really resonates with me for many reasons. But I don’t know how much of a demand there is, what people can afford, and what all would go into it. Basically, it sounds like a near ideal dream job based off of my interests and values, but that’s it. The fermentation business definitely does not sound like my ideal dream job, but I know it could be damn close depending on several things. It also seems like balancing my current job with the new start up would be easier, probably with lower start up costs and more flexibility with time (considering billions of bacteria would be happily working for me for free!). As tempting as playing in the dirt all day sounds, I think it would be safer and maybe a smoother transition to go with the fermentation business. My rebellious, sky diving self kind of wants the high risk of landscaping, though my wife is not quite so enthusiastic about that! Plus, if I needed help or she wanted to help, it would be a lot easier for her to get involved fermenting than landscaping.

I’m going to continue gathering opinions and talking to successful business owners and maybe some locals to see what they think is a better fit for the community.

the thing about business is that at the end, it's the clutch plate between what you do (and it sounds like you`ve given a good amount of thought to what you can and want to do) and the client who wants to give you money for what you do. Your "motor" can be fabulous, but the gear has to be there on the other side for you to engage into and for the car to go (i.e., getting people to pay you). Talking to people in your area to find out what people can spend, how they buy, where they buy, etc will tell you a lot.
You may find that you can combine both in unexpected ways. This week I saw canisters of bokashi for sale (not bokashi starter, but bokashi, sold as fertilizer) for 9 bucks in my feed store. I had no idea there was enough demand for this big fertilizer company to take risk launching a bokashi product! I make my own bokashi starter, and I've had people try to buy that off me (also kombucha), and I thought hmmmm... maybe there's something there (now to invent the human cloning device so I can clone myself and put all these ideas into action..... O-o).

Caveat: I am not an expert.

Suggestion: use your landscaping experience and licensure and adjust the advertising to include "Edible"

"Joe Schmoes" EDIBLE landscaping.

I have wanted to do this also, but you have more experience than I do.

You need to advertise to attract wealthy customers who can afford to pay somebody else to do it for them, so you can afford to do the sliding scale and pro-bono projects.

I thought about that a lot. and this idea might help some:

EDIBLE security perimeters.

A big berm with proper grading and water flow would be amenable to:

Mesquite on the out side, bamboo next then blackberries.

All three are edible and the three combined are hard to get through without getting thorned.

Cheaper than a long fence should be the initial pitch.(If true)

It's a half-baked idea, but there you go.

I'd contact the Small Business Administration and utilize their resources before committing to financing obligations.

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