Looking for information on Edison Ed-240 Nicad batteries

Wikipedia wrote:A fully charged single Ni–Cd cell, under no load, carries a potential difference of between 1.25 and 1.35 volts, which stays relatively constant as the battery is discharged.

Jeremy Baker wrote:I started tests of the ED-240 batteries today.  I connected 10 cells in series at 13.89 volts (1.39V/cell) to a 12 volt inverter and a 140 watt resistive load (and 8 watts for the inverter). Between the batteries and the inverter was a in-line amp hour-voltage meter. And I recorded the voltage of each cell with my digital multimeter. This battery bank new would be rated at 240a-h at 12 volts if fully charged. I recorded the readings every 5 minutes for 2 hours and 20 minutes until the inverter low voltage alarm came on. I had noticed one cell was lower voltage than all the rest. The low cell dropped fast at this point and I disconnected the load and hopefully that cell wasn’t damaged. The voltage had sagged to 1.1 volt per cell on 9 cells and 0.7 volt on the low cell under load but raised to 1.21 volts within 5 minutes with no load. When I charged them again the low cell was higher then the rest at first but then the cells began to even out. Is this cell stronger or weaker than the other cells?? It’s loosing and gaining voltage faster than the rest.
Plotting the data on a graph I think the batteries might need reconditioning. As I’m not sure if the pack was truly fully charged when I started testing I’m just getting a ball park idea what the pack does when charging and discharging.
The amperage was 10.5 amps at first and 11.5 amps at the end. So maybe 11 amps can be used as a average. I suck at conversions. How many amphours is 11 amps for 2.33 hours? I guess it’s about 25 ah? How many KWh was this first test? The battery temperature was 48 degrees.  
As 25a-h is a only small fraction of 240a-h I will try charging to a higher voltage and repeat the test. The low voltage alarm will be useful. The Home Power article says the cells can be charged as high as 1.65 volts. Thanks

Jeremy Baker wrote:Steven,
I’m coaxing these back from dormancy using low current until they are ready for higher current.

Jeremy Baker wrote:
Then I have a 75 amp brutish Charger I can try. That will really make them bubble. But they may foam I read. They only just began to bubble with my 12 amp charger and I’ll cycle them again.  I think they may have sat uncharged for a while as you mentioned. I’m glad my automatic charger has a “manual” setting so I can control the charge better.
That’s sweet you have some Nickel iron cells. Do they foam. Do yours take oil on the top like Nicads?. Tell me more please. Have you changed electrolyte and done testing of the electrolyte? Where do I get the oil and electrolyte?
Thanks for reminding me to get gallons of distilled water tomorrow. Some of these cells have recombining caps and they are full. The ones with ordinary caps are still above the plates but not by much.

Jeremy Baker wrote:Thanks again Steven.
The weak cell I mentioned was a from a group without hydrocaps.  I’ll capacity test the group with hydrocaps again tomorrow and see if they gained capacity. Its a time consuming process and the weather s not cooperating. And my equipment may not be discharging the cells enough to recondition them. But it will tell me something.
I read somewhere the cells should only be empty of electrolyte for 5 minutes max!  When changing electrolyte. Have you read that!

Jeremy Baker wrote:On second thought I’ll try the easier battery reconditioning steps mentioned by Steven. I’ll rinse with distilled water, add fresh KOH solution, and cycle the batteries. But i dug out my old titration labware I had intended to use for biodiesel. Isn’t glass awesome. I love glass.

Steven Di Maira wrote:

Jeremy Baker wrote:On second thought I’ll try the easier battery reconditioning steps mentioned by Steven. I’ll rinse with distilled water, add fresh KOH solution, and cycle the batteries. But i dug out my old titration labware I had intended to use for biodiesel. Isn’t glass awesome. I love glass.

Hi Jeremy,

Very nice set!
Question:
Do you want to use the tritration set to determine the level of co² absorbtion in the elektrolyte?

Yes, this is what I would do.
For my two antique Nife batteries, that was all that was needed to put them into use.
(but everyone may have his opinion)
It's still possible to try the more difficult and more experimental things later?
When you test them:
Would be interesting tot see if the cells with hydrocaps turn out to be the 'best' batteries.

Hi Steven and Co
That’s great you got those NiFe cells going by just flushing and changing the electrolyte. Thanks for the explanation.
Yes, according to the Home Power article the titration is to measure Potassium carbonate and test the Carbonate contamination in the electrolyte. I’m still learning what this means besides telling me it’s time to change the electrolyte. The test can prevent one from changing electrolyte too soon. . The oil is supposed to help prevent contamination also. I read your hypothesis on how adding water and electrolysis increases the Carbonate. It sounds sensible. I’ll look into the procedure more. Have you found a source for oil?? When I goggled Chevron Utility Oil 22 not much came up!
I’m working on a rocket stove build right now but when I’m done I’ll work on the batteries some more and order some KOH. I’m not sure whether to order LiOH also?? Do you suggest adding it. I think I will as it’s suggested by the company that bought Edison (SAB NiFe).
  Yes, I’ll keep you in mind regarding the hydrocaps after I’m done testing. This might take a while. I’m realizing I need to swap out to a more powerful charger at some point. And I thinking of getting a power supply to work on individual cells. What chargers do you have?
Thanks

Jeremy Baker wrote:
Hi Steven and Co
That’s great you got those NiFe cells going by just flushing and changing the electrolyte. Thanks for the explanation.
Yes, according to the Home Power article the titration is to measure Potassium carbonate and test the Carbonate contamination in the electrolyte. I’m still learning what this means besides telling me it’s time to change the electrolyte. The test can prevent one from changing electrolyte too soon. . The oil is supposed to help prevent contamination also. I read your hypothesis on how adding water and electrolysis increases the Carbonate. It sounds sensible. I’ll look into the procedure more. Have you found a source for oil?? When I goggled Chevron Utility Oil 22 not much came up!
I’m working on a rocket stove build right now but when I’m done I’ll work on the batteries some more and order some KOH. I’m not sure whether to order LiOH also?? Do you suggest adding it. I think I will as it’s suggested by the company that bought Edison (SAB NiFe).
  Yes, I’ll keep you in mind regarding the hydrocaps after I’m done testing. This might take a while. I’m realizing I need to swap out to a more powerful charger at some point. And I thinking of getting a power supply to work on individual cells. What chargers do you have?
Thanks

Steven Di Maira wrote:

Jeremy Baker wrote:
Hi Steven and Co
That’s great you got those NiFe cells going by just flushing and changing the electrolyte. Thanks for the explanation.
Yes, according to the Home Power article the titration is to measure Potassium carbonate and test the Carbonate contamination in the electrolyte. I’m still learning what this means besides telling me it’s time to change the electrolyte. The test can prevent one from changing electrolyte too soon. . The oil is supposed to help prevent contamination also. I read your hypothesis on how adding water and electrolysis increases the Carbonate. It sounds sensible. I’ll look into the procedure more. Have you found a source for oil?? When I goggled Chevron Utility Oil 22 not much came up!
I’m working on a rocket stove build right now but when I’m done I’ll work on the batteries some more and order some KOH. I’m not sure whether to order LiOH also?? Do you suggest adding it. I think I will as it’s suggested by the company that bought Edison (SAB NiFe).
  Yes, I’ll keep you in mind regarding the hydrocaps after I’m done testing. This might take a while. I’m realizing I need to swap out to a more powerful charger at some point. And I thinking of getting a power supply to work on individual cells. What chargers do you have?
Thanks

Hi Jeremy,

The carbonate will interfere with the negative plate of the battery. (Cadmium plate for NiCd or Iron plate for NiFe).
Or another way to say it: the Iron of Cadmium plate will be covered with carbon deposits. If this is too much, it will hinder the capacity of the cell.

LiOH powder: In my opnion it depends. My user manual says it is for improved performance. (how? Very vague if you google that) Since mine were new batteries I added it.
At high ambient tempertures the Chinese manufacturer of my cells recommend straight KOH.
But, since the lioh powder is a lot more expensive then KOH and not strictly needed...  

What I have seen another fellow done: Just filled his batteries with straight KOH for testing.
And if all goes well, then you can still add a bit of lioh powder to each filled cell. And/or the float oil.

I cant find the link immediately, but there is a site that does oil substitution/compare.

Greetings,
Steven.


Thanks Steven,
I’ll look for the float oil substitution. I see a few small bottles of the original oil listed on eBay but they are rather expensive for such small bottles.
It’s nice not to be concerned about low temperature. It’s not been -13 degrees here in living memory. And it doesn’t get very hot here either.
What charge rate did you charge those empty cells you found with?  I’m wondering if I’m much too timid (cautious) about charging ((and discharging) these NiCads.

Neil Binderman wrote:I have just joined the forum and I hope my first posting will help.
This is taken from a library resource where many very old books, as well as some modern ones on a myriad of subjects have been scanned and placed in the public domain, so no copyright issues.
You are free to download any of these books in a variety of formats (PDF works the best)
Hope it helps.
https://archive.org/details/edisonalkalines00compgoog/page/n4
https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.42361/page/n5

Jeremy Baker wrote:
Neil
Welcome to Permies.
Thanks for the links. The links led me to a archive library fundraising page so I was unable to see the pdf book. I didn’t donate right now but will keep it in mind if I need more information. These type of Nicad batteries have been in production for about 120 years so there must be good books in those archives I would think.
 What brought you to Permies?

Jeremy Baker wrote:Hi, I stumbled on 40 cells of these industrial batteries. They are all at about 1.3 volts per cell so I think need charging. They are arranged in groups of 5 cells. What do I charge them to and how do I charge them? With my limited internet connectivity I’ve not been able to see the videos on Utube. A pdf of a battery manual would be great but have not found one yet. I’m going to put a trickle charge on them tomorrow and raise the voltage slightly. Then try and build some type of capacity tester. Someone told me the discharge voltage curve is very flat then drops off quickly. A bit like Lithium. What would the charge curve look like?  How would I know when they are near fully charged and near fully discharged?  Thanks, any suggestions are appreciated. My solar lead batteries are weak and I’m hoping to find a little more capacity. Oh, they are dated 1979-80 lol. Not spring chickens that’s for sure.

Neil Binderman wrote:

Jeremy Baker wrote:
Neil
Welcome to Permies.
Thanks for the links. The links led me to a archive library fundraising page so I was unable to see the pdf book. I didn’t donate right now but will keep it in mind if I need more information. These type of Nicad batteries have been in production for about 120 years so there must be good books in those archives I would think.
 What brought you to Permies?

Purely by accident.
I retired form my job as a New Mexico police officer and then had the time to concentrate on my 3 1/2 acres of desert dirt. We had a small fruit orchard and for years we have very little fruit and the trees always looked close to death. The final straw came when one of the local factory farms expanded and started to cover my property in a layer of cow manure dust which smothered and my trees and I believe one of my beehives. I got a preliminary injunction so the manure dust has stopped, but when I dug up the dead trees I found that the culprit was the local Siberian Ash trees. These were introduced years ago as they are fast growing and very drought tolerant. Problem was that their roots can travel hundreds of yards from the tree, which they did, and strangled the roots of my fruit trees. They also immediately suck up any water intended for my trees.
So I'm replanting in containers and was looking for information on soil types for the new fruit trees, hence my joining this group.

Mark Cunningham wrote:

Jeremy Baker wrote:Hi, I stumbled on 40 cells of these industrial batteries. They are all at about 1.3 volts per cell so I think need charging. They are arranged in groups of 5 cells. What do I charge them to and how do I charge them? With my limited internet connectivity I’ve not been able to see the videos on Utube. A pdf of a battery manual would be great but have not found one yet. I’m going to put a trickle charge on them tomorrow and raise the voltage slightly. Then try and build some type of capacity tester. Someone told me the discharge voltage curve is very flat then drops off quickly. A bit like Lithium. What would the charge curve look like?  How would I know when they are near fully charged and near fully discharged?  Thanks, any suggestions are appreciated. My solar lead batteries are weak and I’m hoping to find a little more capacity. Oh, they are dated 1979-80 lol. Not spring chickens that’s for sure.

I have overhauled and rebuilt a lot of these cells.  Here is my manual.

Good Luck.

Jeremy Baker wrote:

Wow, what’s next, a swarm of locusts, or paint stripping sand storms!!!? It sounds like a challenging environment but that’s where Permaculture design and methodology can work wonders. Maybe those Siberian Ash trees can produce a lot of biomass to mulch with?? I wonder if they are nitrogen fixing?
Congratulations on retiring and finding Permaculture. Ive found it fascinating. Please keep us posted on your progress with your land and plants.

Steven Di Maira wrote: It is valid to say that excessive watering leads to increased carbon build up?

Steven Di Maira wrote:Did you consider hydrocaps?

Steven Di Maira wrote:Do you have an idea what causes Iron Poisoning?

Steven Di Maira wrote:I have added a picture of the two old batteries I have.

Steven Di Maira wrote:Also attached, is a scanned copy of my NiFe batteries from China.

Jeremy Baker wrote:I will be able to charge and test individual cells. Every power supply I looked at on eBay either didn’t have enough power or was out of my price range.

Mark Cunningham wrote:
For us ..... this facet of battery ownership encourages water storage.  Which is a good thing.  Folks take water for granted.  

When you create LCDW for your batteries ..... your also storing sterile water for cooking, drinking, chemical, and medical purposes.  

Mark Cunningham wrote:

Nice work on those cells in the picture.  What is the Ah rating?

Steven Di Maira wrote:
- ...Better performance (less gassing)
- ...Preventing Iron poisoning
- ...Preventing carbon build up

Or all of the above?

Mark Cunningham wrote:
Nobody I've read to date has given a direct explanation of what LiOH does in the electrolyte.   I don't think that it has any effect on cell hydrolysis.
I remember reading that it was a preservative in one manual, (I forget which but it is in the references appendix).  I know that LiOH was the agent used in the Apollo emergency as a CO2 scrubber.

So my guess is that it is both a carbon scavenger and a rust preventative.

Neil Binderman wrote:Some bathroom reading for you
http://jes.ecsdl.org/content/162/10/A2036.full.pdf

Neil Binderman wrote:Some bathroom reading

Steven Di Maira wrote:"I am not able to explain why the addition of lithium hydroxid should result in such striking and noticeble phenonomens"

Mark Cunningham wrote:

Rejuvenation of Nickel Cadmium Aircraft Battery Electrolyte.

Ignore all of the apparatus and pay particular attention to the second and third paragraphs under the "Background of the Invention".  Think about what those dilution/rejuvenation tricks mean for the home installation.
 

Hope this helps

Neil Binderman wrote:original Edison batteries being made.

Steven Di Maira wrote:Concept

Steven Di Maira wrote:I am experimenting with 'end of absorbtion