Sneaky solar - renters solar

thomas rubino wrote:Hi R;
He's not receiving payment, he is slowing down his consumption.

r ranson wrote:It used to be, in Ontario if you had a generator (like solar panels) and produced extra electricity, the province would pay you money to feed that power into the grid.  It was a way of decentralizing electric production, encouraging alternative energy, and making local communities more sufficient.

Last time I looked, where I live, it's fine if you feed power into the grid, but they won't pay me any money for it.  I'm giving it to them as a gift.

Some places, you pay them to store your extra power then pay them again to get it back.  This is a way to discourage home production.  

It's good to find out what the rules are where you live as they are different everywhere - and in many places like Ontario, change quickly.  

That's why I'm thinking about the charging station.  I'm wondering what can I transform into battery power (lighting?) so I don't have to worry about the grid tie-in.

David Baillie wrote:to refine that explanation when you were paid by ontario hydro it was part of the micro fit program and was created to encourage green energy production. The first contract was 80 cent per kwhr the final systems put in were about 25 cents per kwhr to reflect the dropping cost of solar. You had a meter for paid to you and a second one for billed to you.
The new version is called net metering and although no money changes hands you can build up a bank of kwhr to be used within 13 months of production to help offset your consumption. the system will break even with 7 to 10 years which is a better rate of return then most investments... hydro quite likes net metering as it encourages an all electric home. ..
Cheers,  David

Skandi Rogers wrote:

David Baillie wrote:to refine that explanation when you were paid by ontario hydro it was part of the micro fit program and was created to encourage green energy production. The first contract was 80 cent per kwhr the final systems put in were about 25 cents per kwhr to reflect the dropping cost of solar. You had a meter for paid to you and a second one for billed to you.
The new version is called net metering and although no money changes hands you can build up a bank of kwhr to be used within 13 months of production to help offset your consumption. the system will break even with 7 to 10 years which is a better rate of return then most investments... hydro quite likes net metering as it encourages an all electric home. ..
Cheers,  David

How they do it varies so much, what you describe used to be the way it was done here, but now you sell to the grid at wholesale prices, so on average you get around 5c per kwh (electric costs 34c/kwh to buy) But sometimes the price even goes negative for example on a windy summers day. Fairly obviously solar is not a popular choice here anymore, although  a HUGE system has been put in a few miles from me covering several acres. the payback time on domestic solar systems are between 12 and 15 years.

r ranson wrote:
I'm hoping to set up a solar charging station near one of the south-facing windows.  It would be a panel, controller and battery.  Then I can plug in USB and battery-powered gadgets (flashlights, camera batteries, ...) to charge.  

kevin stewart wrote:Whoa, i always thought solar involved electricians.
With a large enough inverter this is something you can slowly build up.

When you are pricing this unit also put a price on satisfaction.

Any more information you can add, please add.

r ranson wrote:Wow!  That's great.
How do you incorporate the Deadmans switch thingy into the system?  Locally if we have a generator (solar, wind, gas, whatever) hooked up to the house power, it needs to have a switch so that the power doesn't feedback into the grid during power outages and kill the repairmen that come to fix downed powerlines.    

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:
How about NOT incorporating this device into the existing system at all? Incorporating the system to the local grid sounds really difficult to someone like me [without any kind of knowledge in electric systems] and potentially dangerous. But I could see several mini-systems, separate from each other, a mini system to keep my chickens warm during the winter for example, or keep water flowing, or keep the place lit at night. These devices exist/ used to exist for campers, trailers etc. that are not connected to the grid.
My husband is an anchor when it comes to using renewables. "It's just fine the way it is, we can afford to continue like this, it is expensive, so how long is it going to take to recoup the investment".
I'm sure you have heard all these arguments before. When you are married to one, it gets harder to make changes... but not impossible ;-) In the flat and partially wooded area where I live, I have investigated wind power. It turns out that the site would give us a mediocre result at best [too may obstructions]. but I have not given up on solar.

Johan Thorbecke wrote:

Doug Kalmer wrote:

Johan Thorbecke wrote:

There is btw a more easy solution for this, you can get USB solar panels for not too much these days. Plug them in to a honking big USB power bank and you're good to go for between $40-100 depending on how large you want the system to be.
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Do you mean a Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS)? USB panels are small panels to charge portable devices. I have never heard of a UPS panel, any power source of the right voltage and frequency can charge a UPS. https://www.amazon.com/Computer-Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-Units/b?node=764572

jacque greenleaf wrote:

Doug Kalmer wrote:

Johan Thorbecke wrote:

There is btw a more easy solution for this, you can get USB solar panels for not too much these days. Plug them in to a honking big USB power bank and you're good to go for between $40-100 depending on how large you want the system to be.
===========================================================
Do you mean a Uninterrupted Power Supply (UPS)? USB panels are small panels to charge portable devices. I have never heard of a UPS panel, any power source of the right voltage and frequency can charge a UPS. https://www.amazon.com/Computer-Uninterruptible-Power-Supply-Units/b?node=764572

RVers use USB panels all the time - here's an example - https://www.jackery.com/products/solarsaga-100w-solar-panel. These panels will charge a battery bank. Some RVers are now carrying around 1000 watts of solar panels, although 200-400 watts is more typical.

Granted, for typical household use, this is pretty darn minimal. But it's not trivial if you live in an area prone to power outages. Managed correctly, this amount of power will keep a CPAP operating and run a 12v fridge.

Grid-tied solar is a great technology, and more people should be taking advantage of it, IMNSHO. But it's not the only game in town.


At $3+shipping a watt, you can do a lot better buying a regular panel at $0.80 a watt, and use an inverter to get USB charging and 120AC.

Johan Thorbecke wrote:Often you hear people that they can't install solar because they rent or because the local power monopoly has problems with it. Renting a house doesn't mean you have to forgo solar because the landlord isn't cooperating. You can still cover a lot of your baseload in a discrete way without anyone finding out with only 1 or 2 panels.
At the moment I'm renting short term but I have two solar panels, one facing east and one facing west. By doing this instead of a peak generation midday you're smoothing it out over the whole day.

Installation is dead simple. plug the panel in the micro inverter and plug the micro inverter in a socket. That's it. Keep in mind of course that the socket is out of the weathers way. This setup generates between 100-300W constantly on a sunny day, depending on the time of day. Not enough to cover large stuff like an AC but it takes quite a chunk out of your usage and your bill.

Chris Kott wrote:

Johan Thorbecke wrote:Often you hear people that they can't install solar because they rent or because the local power monopoly has problems with it. Renting a house doesn't mean you have to forgo solar because the landlord isn't cooperating. You can still cover a lot of your baseload in a discrete way without anyone finding out with only 1 or 2 panels.
At the moment I'm renting short term but I have two solar panels, one facing east and one facing west. By doing this instead of a peak generation midday you're smoothing it out over the whole day.

Installation is dead simple. plug the panel in the micro inverter and plug the micro inverter in a socket. That's it. Keep in mind of course that the socket is out of the weathers way. This setup generates between 100-300W constantly on a sunny day, depending on the time of day. Not enough to cover large stuff like an AC but it takes quite a chunk out of your usage and your bill.

Again, in the aforementioned setup, panel plugs into inverter, inverter plugs into wall. No hole in walls, no wires through windows, no nothing. And the idea is sneaky solar, or guerilla solar, if you will. The idea is that you're flying under the radar, so it is presumed that one would take all necessary steps, most of which have been mentioned above, to avoid anything that would cause power companies, authority figures, or the Department of Making You Sad from noticing that you're producing your own power. That means either controlling your usage such that none feeds back to the grid by means of diverting excess to household storage or simply having a generating cap.

One idea I have thought about since I became aware of UPS systems, and even more so since the advent of the concept of the Tesla Power Wall (which I think is a terrific concept whoever popularises it or makes it, be it a big company or homesteaders with kit packages) is the idea of using the UPS or Power Wall as a primary energy source during peak usage, and then charging when rates drop in the evening. This is only some slight savings for homeowners, but if your business relied on using power during peak hours, it could represent serious operational cost savings.

This, however, is neither sneaky, nor geared towards renters, unless somebody has an idea for a semi-portable (or at least movable) Power wall. Though it occurs to me that there might be an intersection here between home solar and home electric vehicle charging. I mean, the electric car is just a battery bank on wheels with some seats in it.

Great conversation, though. I look forward to seeing where it goes.

-CK

kelly purdue wrote:So if one wanted to generate power just under the normal usage is there an easy way to monitor that? I guess I want to see how many watts are always being used at any moment in my house, not average usage or peak usage.

Doug Kalmer wrote:

I have several systems that take DC from the panels and go directly to a motor with no controller.  

Doug Kalmer wrote:  Also, microinverters are placed right on PV panels, changing DC to AC with no controller or disconnects in between. This is completely legal and according to code.  

Doug Kalmer wrote:   Inverters properly sized to the panels will not blow.  

Cristo Balete wrote:Doug,  so you've probably got 23 microinveters, one for each panel?  No batteries involved?

Not sure where you are, but DC disconnects, and AC disconnects are the code where I am.   The fire department and the county require it.   When I've had to work on panels, or work on batteries, like replacing them, the disconnect boxes are really great to have for safety reasons.

I've used my solar setup for 20 years, it's using batteries, not tied to the grid, so the controller keeps track of everything when it comes to the state of the batteries, and lets me know that all of the panels are working.