thoughts on developing a "landrace" breed?

A couple years ago I learned of a project called the Aloha Chicken project. A breeder was attempting to develop a bird that looked like a Swedish Flower Hen, but that didn't contain SFH genetics (as they were not available in the US at the time the project started).  http://alohachickens.blogspot.com/   Very cool stuff!

I got to thinking back to being a kid, and the weird "barnyard mix" I kept with my grandfather.  Some more or less pure breeds (standards--RIR, NHR, BR), some crosses.  We weren't breeding to any kind of standard.  Just using whatever rooster was available with whatever hens we could catch...

In any case, I'm in the closing stages of a property purchase. My permaculture project--after 20 years of intense work--might launch soon!  Very excited.  Chickens will be a major player in the operation. For food production, for integrating into the composting/gardening programs, pest control, pasture improvement, etc.

I have zero interest in breeding anything to any kind of "standard".  In fact, I am hoping to undertake a kind of breeding project of my own, and develop a flock that works well in my particular situation. I live in Wisconsin--it gets very cold here.  Cold hardiness, and some degree of camo to help evade predators would be essential.  Good laying characteristics would be a must.

I've been raising a "mixed flock" for several years on a very small scale.  5-6 hens, in the city.  Now, with access to land in the country, I can keep roosters, and would have the room to expand. And a place to process the manure and bedding.  I'm excited about the prospect of all of this.


I'm wondering--since I seem to be incapable of deciding--what everyone thought about purposely creating multi-way crosses?   Their are 8-10 breeds I very much want in my flock.  Cold hardy, sometimes broody.  Some that are exceptionally well suited to avoiding predators.  Some that are exceptionally good brown egg layers, etc.

If you were to undertake a breeding project, say to create an 8-way cross of some kind, would you rigorously and in a step-wise way produce 2-way crosses, then 4-way crosses, then 8-way crosses?  

I was working out some genetics on this, and it gets very complicated very quickly.    And considering that their can be incomplete dominance, or traits "leaking" through that formally shouldn't be, I'm wondering if I can actually just leave much of this up to chance.  

What I'm starting to think is (and I'm discussing this with 2 other chicken raisers, so hopefully I could spread the labor and expense out) maybe the best thing to do would be to collect a large number of suitable hens.  A flock of maybe 60 birds of various breeds (not a huge problem--not if it were divided between 3 farms).  Then, another collection of suitable roosters, also of mixed breeds.   I could divide them up, even if just totally randomly into clans, and then employ a "spiral breeding" program.  

The first season, lets say I had 3 breeding flocks with 2 roosters, and 15 hens each.  Let's also say the 2 roos were different breeds, and different from the 6 breeds the hens contained.  That would produce a totally random collection of 12 different crosses.   Not having any knowledge of what any of them would look like, I could  just produce them, run them on range, see what is most suitable, and the best couple of them would go on to the next round of breeding.   This would happen with 2 other breeding flocks.  Then in the second season, the roos would move "one clan over", producing a totally random 4 way cross.  Then again, producing a totally random 8 way cross.

Breeding decisions would be based on measurable traits--egg production, egg color, aesthetics (interesting markings--speckling, barring, lacing...).  

I realize this would be a tremendous amount of work--any breeding project is going to be expensive and labor intensive.  But it would be very cool, I think, to sort of put a lot of genetics "in a blender" and see what floated to the top.   Produce a lot of random crosses, select a small handful of interesting roosters, and a larger handful of interesting hens, cross them....

Maybe one could even get a jump start on the project by purchasing cross breeds in the first place.  Even Ebay has sellers who have "barnyard mix" fertilized eggs available.  One of the sellers must have had 20 cold hardy breeds in the mix.  Also, hatcheries often time have crosses available.  Red Rocks (RIRxBR), golden comets (NHR x White Rock).

In a sense it would replicate natural selection.  Put a population in an environment, and the ones most suited would move on. The ones that were cold hardy, predator resistant, etc.  

Any thoughts on how one would do this?  My gut feeling is to leave much of it up to random chance.  Produce a lot of offspring, raise them, and select interesting traits (interesting mixes of markings, dark brown egg layers, etc).  The 2x crosses might not be interesting, but the 4x crosses could start showing interesint incomplete dominance, co-dominance, and other interesting things.  

Just my ramblings--I've been stuck at home for 2 weeks thanks to the pandemic :-)  

Neat thought. We finally have started our Homestead on 2 acres. Hatching our first collection of eggs as we speak. Hopefully will have above 50% through my DIY incubator. I got the eggs from another young fella who sells eggs from his flock about 30 or 40 chickens. He has been working on developing a breed of chicken by crossing a brown Egger with a green Egger to produce a dark green egg. His results have been very interesting, and I got one of those eggs from him. That’s all I got though. Have an actually done it myself.

I'm familiar with the general idea of breeding and selecting for specific traits in mammals. What I wonder is how you would do the selection when you have a flock of hens, and you have no idea who is producing which eggs/offspring? If you have a few hens pop up with cool colors, or who are fantastic layers, how would you try to continue their genetics specifically?

I know some homesteaders who did a simpler version of that.  They have 30 or so hens and a couple roosters.  They incubate eggs and sell chicks (that's how I got my flock).  Every year or two they get a different rooster(s) to adjust their genetics in whatever direction they want.  The hen's keep blending in the new rooster's genes and the flock evolves year after year.

I just separate the rooster and the hens I want to continue with into a chicken tractor and then hatch the eggs.

I am into this at the moment, so I thought that, better than opening a new thread, could be good to write here.

I bought 5 ameraucana chickens and 5 plymouth rock chickens. And a plymouth rock rooster. I bought those two breeds cause I read that were easy for newbies like me, but I am looking also for local adaptation.

With some contacts I could get "Chulilla Chicken". Is a chicken from my region that the government is trying to recover, so they gave me 4 newborn chicks and some eggs that I incubated. So with chicks and eggs I have now 11 chulilla chicks, don't know how many are roosters and how many of them are chickens, I guess I will see the difference soon.

Anyway. My idea is that being the "Chulilla" a good base (as, theorically, is locally adapted) and the others nice breeds for different reasons, I could improve it and get a better breed for my comarca (comarca is a small area within the region).

With the 11 chicks, lets asume that I have 6 roosters and 5 chickens. I don't want 6 roosters, so I guess I will keep 1 Chulilla rooster with the 5 chickens, and try to develop more the race. Another rooster might go with the original flock (ameraucans and plymouth) and maybe another just in case. So I 'll have to give the other 3 to somebody. The chickens, I have the commitment with the government to raise some newborns and move them around in the comarca. So those first I will not cross them with the plymouth rooster, but once they start to have their own eggs I will have a new batch and might build from that point on.

My best way to go would be what Joseph said, just have a bunch of them with lots of variety (wich I should improve getting more breeds, wich is something doable) and let them do whatever. But, having the incubator, I was thinking that maybe I should develop a system to  have it going. Maybe every month or every two months just load the incubator and see what comes to the world (would be or plymouth or plymouth + ameraucana, on the first rounds). Or, if you do it with incubator, how you do it? Once a year take eggs for that? Or whenever you feel like it? Has anybody a system?

I was thinking also that, once I get used to this flock (I just got the chickens two months ago) keep adding periodically (every season... but , what is a season?) more variety. And maybe every 18-24 months change rooster to avoid inbreeding if I can.

Is there any good landrace story to read? I've read all the threads here, but I am trying to find some "system" or guidance to follow. Although I like what Joseph said and some other users, but I always like to have "method&madness"

Here's something from my book about this topic.

Chickens

Heritage breeds of chickens tend to be highly inbred. People love their heritage breeds, and go to great lengths to make sure that the inbreeding continues. I’ve read reports of maintaining some breeds as a single breeding pair!

Heritage breed preservation is another example of a variety that was selected to thrive long ago, on a far away farm. Modern conditions and the local ecosystem in each coop are different from whatever they were when and where the breed originated. Landrace chickens adapt more easily to local conditions: the weather, a particular coop, the farmer’s and community’s habits.

I know farmers who keep large flocks of mixed breed chickens, which are allowed to interbreed at will. Their flocks survive fine. I think that is partially because they keep large flocks, and they maintain large numbers of roosters in the flock.

The historical way of avoiding inbreeding depression in a flock is to keep only the hens hatched on your homestead, and then bring in unrelated roosters from elsewhere. Unrelated means separated by three or more generations.

Traditionally, this method coalesced into a method known as spiral breeding. It is named spiral because the male chicks move from flock to flock, preventing them from mating with close relatives. Spiral breeding involves maintaining three or more flocks of chickens. No males remain in their mother’s flock. Young roosters move to the next flock in the spiral. The order of rotation is always the same. For example Red Flock to Blue Flock. Blue Flock to Green Flock. Green Flock to Red Flock. That maintains an inbreeding distance of three generations.

Keep enough roosters in each generation so that if one dies unexpectedly, the spiral can continue. A rooster that stays with the flock for years has more influence over the genetics of the flock than younger roosters. Younger roosters contribute to quicker adaptation. Older roosters add stability.

For simplicity, spiral breeding is best done with three or more flocks of chickens on multiple homesteads. Ben gives his rooster chicks to Kathi. She gives hers to Dave. Dave gives his to Ben. Always in that order. Then no record keeping or pedigrees are required.

Spiral breeding can also be done on a single homestead, by putting colored bands on each bird when they are young. They can be kept as a mixed flock for most of the year, being separated only for the duration of mating season. I know a homesteader who does spiral breeding by memorizing which birds belong to which flock.

To preserve local adaptation while increasing genetic diversity, I recommend that one or two hens in ten be a new breed, imported from outside the spiral each year. Any random breeds
are fine, as there’s no telling who will contribute a gene that would be beneficial to the long-term viability of the flock.

If you really can’t find neighbors who share your vision about landrace chickens, there is a variation on the spiral breeding theme. Keep only your hens. Each spring before mating season, get rid of all of your roosters, and bring in roosters from random breeds that haven’t been on your farm before. That keeps the local adaptation of the hens, and is constantly bringing in new diversity from the roosters.

Culture is an important part of a chicken’s survival ability. The best way for them to learn survival skills is from their mother, and the other members of the flock. I highly recommend that locally-adapted landrace chicken flocks self-sustain with broody hens, and not by robotic hatching machines.

Many modern and heritage breeds have lost the instinct for brooding. Developing a robustly thriving locally-adapted flock of chickens might involve selecting for broodiness.

(Landrace Gardening: Food Security through Biodiversity and Promiscuous Pollination, pages 119-121, chapter entitled Landrace Everything)

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:Here's something from my book about this topic.

Chickens

Heritage breeds of chickens tend to be highly inbred. People love their heritage breeds, and go to great lengths to make sure that the inbreeding continues. I’ve read reports of maintaining some breeds as a single breeding pair!

Heritage breed preservation is another example of a variety that was selected to thrive long ago, on a far away farm. Modern conditions and the local ecosystem in each coop are different from whatever they were when and where the breed originated. Landrace chickens adapt more easily to local conditions: the weather, a particular coop, the farmer’s and community’s habits.

I know farmers who keep large flocks of mixed breed chickens, which are allowed to interbreed at will. Their flocks survive fine. I think that is partially because they keep large flocks, and they maintain large numbers of roosters in the flock.

The historical way of avoiding inbreeding depression in a flock is to keep only the hens hatched on your homestead, and then bring in unrelated roosters from elsewhere. Unrelated means separated by three or more generations.

Traditionally, this method coalesced into a method known as spiral breeding. It is named spiral because the male chicks move from flock to flock, preventing them from mating with close relatives. Spiral breeding involves maintaining three or more flocks of chickens. No males remain in their mother’s flock. Young roosters move to the next flock in the spiral. The order of rotation is always the same. For example Red Flock to Blue Flock. Blue Flock to Green Flock. Green Flock to Red Flock. That maintains an inbreeding distance of three generations.

Keep enough roosters in each generation so that if one dies unexpectedly, the spiral can continue. A rooster that stays with the flock for years has more influence over the genetics of the flock than younger roosters. Younger roosters contribute to quicker adaptation. Older roosters add stability.

For simplicity, spiral breeding is best done with three or more flocks of chickens on multiple homesteads. Ben gives his rooster chicks to Kathi. She gives hers to Dave. Dave gives his to Ben. Always in that order. Then no record keeping or pedigrees are required.

Spiral breeding can also be done on a single homestead, by putting colored bands on each bird when they are young. They can be kept as a mixed flock for most of the year, being separated only for the duration of mating season. I know a homesteader who does spiral breeding by memorizing which birds belong to which flock.

To preserve local adaptation while increasing genetic diversity, I recommend that one or two hens in ten be a new breed, imported from outside the spiral each year. Any random breeds
are fine, as there’s no telling who will contribute a gene that would be beneficial to the long-term viability of the flock.

If you really can’t find neighbors who share your vision about landrace chickens, there is a variation on the spiral breeding theme. Keep only your hens. Each spring before mating season, get rid of all of your roosters, and bring in roosters from random breeds that haven’t been on your farm before. That keeps the local adaptation of the hens, and is constantly bringing in new diversity from the roosters.

Culture is an important part of a chicken’s survival ability. The best way for them to learn survival skills is from their mother, and the other members of the flock. I highly recommend that locally-adapted landrace chicken flocks self-sustain with broody hens, and not by robotic hatching machines.

Many modern and heritage breeds have lost the instinct for brooding. Developing a robustly thriving locally-adapted flock of chickens might involve selecting for broodiness.

(Landrace Gardening: Food Security through Biodiversity and Promiscuous Pollination, pages 119-121, chapter entitled Landrace Everything)

Hola Joseph!

I have your book here in Spain, and read that, but also read a previous post where you had a more relaxed approach. I guess that you are more into spiral now

I think I will have , by now, two separated flocks. One only for the “Chulilla” chickens to keep the breed (I have to until new chicks are born) and only with the Plymouth + Ameraucanas. I could put the Chulilla rooster with the P+A, but not the other way (yet). But I keep thinking… wouldnt it be better let everybody mix and just have control over the roosters? even having several roosters and just the discipline of taking roosters out every certain time

Also I am having mixed feelings on the incubator.For one side, I think in just letting them do their work when some is broody. But I do also think that I could give it a faster start if before winter I do incubate a first batch of sixteen.

Lots to think!

I am just not into the "Landrace" Concept.

We raised Rock Island Reds and were very happy chicken owners.

I would rather spend my time gathering eggs, making compost, and planting a garden.

Our daughter was going to develop a specific colored egg so she purchased 45 baby chicks of the variety she wanted for that colored egg.  Turned out that all 45 chicks were roosters so that was the end of her "landrace" egg color project.

Anne Miller wrote:I am just not into the "Landrace" Concept.

We raised Rock Island Reds and were very happy chicken owners.

I would rather spend my time gathering eggs, making compost, and planting a garden.

Our daughter was going to develop a specific colored egg so she purchased 45 baby chicks of the variety she wanted for that colored egg.  Turned out that all 45 chicks were roosters so that was the end of her "landrace" egg color project.

Hola Anne! In fact, gather eggs, making composts and planting a garden is what everything is all about. Although it can look like a deep debate , for me is just about trying to get the best genetics for gathering eggs, making compost and plant a garden in my climate and conditions.

Most of the day, I just let the chickens be chickens. I just wonder about "what if I add this breed or another breed, to have the best suited chickens to this place?". It is pretty much all