Paddock sizes question

I see a lot of discussion of how many animals per acre, and lots of talk about the clear superiority of rotating paddock systems. What I don't fully understand is whether the acreage estimates take paddocking into account, or whether these estimates expect you to multiply them by 3 or 4.

If you have 50 cattle on lush pasture, would it be 100 acres split into four 25-acre paddocks with rotation every couple weeks, or would it be four 100-acre paddocks?

Must be really lush if you can sustain 50 cattle on 100A. Some parts of Texas figure 25A per cow!

Regardless. For example, if your holding capacity is 5A per "animal unit", and you have 100A, you can keep 20 'head' on it. Doesn't matter if it is one 100A pasture, or 10 10A paddocks (or 20 5A paddocks).

More smaller paddocks are better than fewer large paddocks. A principal of the paddock system is that you want to move the herd OFF of it before they wipe it out. AND you want to keep them off of it until it has time to recover (regrow) before you put them back there.

Depending on your climate and soil, you will want early/mid/late crop maturities. After a hard winter, you will want to move them onto your early pasture, and keep rotating them through the seasons as each pasture peaks.

If you have good mixtures on the pastures, you can move them back onto the first pasture, as the late grasses are now ready to be eaten. A big key to this system is having a good mixture of grasses for your climate. It does you no good to have everything ready at once. You want to spread it as evenly as you can through all of the seasons.

Greg Judy's video is worth watching to see how it works:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HGKSvjk5Q

Hope this helps answer your question.

You definitely wouldn't want to count on multiplying those estimates by three or four. The big benefit of rotational grazing comes with long-term pasture health. M.I.G. or managed intensive grazing systems can substantially increase stocking rates and people are pushing the boundaries here, but it takes a lot of work and some really good pasture management skills to pull it off.

Initially as you increase the number of paddocks you get a bigger return, as the proportion of plant rest time increases a lot with each additional paddock. Once you get up to seven or eight paddocks the return lessens as plants are already resting about 90% of the time....the MIG guys with a zillion paddocks are mostly getting more control over grazer selectivity and utilization.

Grazing has a big effect on root biomass, and it's (obviously) not readily observable. But if you start removing 50% or more of the above ground growth then root growth starts to slow down...take off 80% of the top and root growth stops. Continuously close grazed pastures end up with pretty skimpy root systems. During regrowth the leaf takes priority and the root recovers last, so you need to give extra rest time if you don't want to affect the root mass.

If you have an idea of how much rest time you want (say 40 days) and you know how long you want your grazing period (days between moves) then you can figure out how many paddocks you want.. ie 40 days rest / 7 days between moves +1 = eight paddocks.

Another possible tools include deferred rotational grazing or rest rotational grazing.... in deferred grazing you stay off of a selected paddock until it has built up it's root reserves and you might let it set seed to renew itself...in rest rotational, you stay off one of the paddocks for an entire year to let it replenish itself, it's often very appropriate for native grasslands that are more sensitive. There are also follow-the-leader systems where grazer groups with different nutritional requirements (and perhaps different species) follow each other through the paddock system....this can utilize forage more efficiently and bump up the stocking rate a bit.

If you're going to cycle back to paddock number one in the same year, make sure you're not timing it perfectly to load your grazers with parasites from the first grazing's manure...ie know the timing of parasite life cycles...

Anyway, it's a huge fun topic and lots to learn, and at least as much art as science....i haven't figured out how it works on my place yet...but those are some tidbits to think about...

You might want to check out joel salatins mob grazing talks on youtube, with his grass it's more like 200 cows on 1 acre per day on 100 acres. They clean it right off and the ground get's a full recovery like the natural systems of migrating herds. There's no compaction because theres no repetitive trampling, what's more with that volume there's no untouched area's that grow into inedible plant patches. It's a quickly movable electronet fence situation rather than fenced cells, give mob grazing a search and see how that perspective suits your situation.

"It depends...?"
I'm a bit confused by your question, but nothing new there
I've only recently come across Greg Judy and he is awesome
This video is quite long, but he describes mobbing and rotation really well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6HGKSvjk5Q

Whoa, thanks for all the information! It's taken me a few hours to process all this, but that video did a great job illustrating how truly effective this system can be when done right. I'm just throwing out a possible strategy, so poke holes wherever you see issues or important variables:

1 pasture, broken up into 16 paddocks. Each paddock gets grazed for a week, then left alone for 4 months, then grazed again, then returned to 4 months later in the winter, with the 4 leftover weeks in the year going to grazing on winter rye and other cover crops in the cornfields. The cattle get the paddock for 1 week, then they are followed by a decent-sized flock of chickens to pick over the manure for a week, then a flock of sheep to feed on the weeds shooting up for a week, then the last week of the month a second flock of chickens to pick over their manure! After that, the paddock gets 3 months to grow and mature, allowing legumes to develop seeds in time for the protein dining tour.

A question: if one was going to follow cattle with sheep and get the most out of a pasture, how many sheep should be used in proportion to the cattle herd size? I've heard numbers as high as 5-6 sheep per acre in the Northeast, but what would be the safer size for both herds when sharing sward? Should both herd sizes be reduced? By how much?

As for plant mixes in each pasture to suit the months they are grazed, that is a whole nother kettle of fish as I am only just beginning to scratch the surface when it comes to the art of seed mixes. In terms of primary "quarterback" plants that serve as the leading element of a paddock's seed mix, how would a system such as this work in terms of effectiveness?

April & August & December Paddock Mix: fast-growing early-starting grass like Orchardgrass
May & September & January - Timothy & Alfalfa
June & October & February - Ryegrass & Clover
July & November & March - Kentucky 32 Fescue & Alfalfa

Give it to me straight, doc: are these 4-month spacings and seasonal forage crop choices doomed? Did I pick any really bad months for any of them? If they work, what would be good specific additions to specific mixes? I'm thinking about tossing in barley, what else would work in context? And what would be good species to add to the mixes that the cattle would leave alone for the sheep to mop up? Anything both herds would leave behind for the poultry?

Patrick Winters wrote:
A question: if one was going to follow cattle with sheep and get the most out of a pasture, how many sheep should be used in proportion to the cattle herd size? I've heard numbers as high as 5-6 sheep per acre in the Northeast, but what would be the safer size for both herds when sharing sward? Should both herd sizes be reduced?

Carrying capacity is expressed in acres per animal unit. One cow is considered an animal unit. Depending on their size, 5-6 sheep equal one cow/animal unit. If you want to graze multiple species, at least at first you shouldn't add more animal units, but instead substitute for instance 5 sheep for one cow. If your land can carry two animal units, you could have one cow and 5 sheep. Only if the land proves it can support the two animals units without damage should one consider adding more animal units or partial units, in my opinion.

Animal unit equivalents: http://www.gov.mb.ca/agriculture/crops/forages/bjb00s17.html

It also is better to put the sheep and cattle together--it actually increases the carrying capacity (2+2=5) because they eat different plants. And more importantly, the cattle are the guards that protect the sheep from the coyotes.

It depends a LOT based on local weather and pasture health and rotation schedule. The intense rotation that Salatin and Judy do takes a lot of time--but they get more than twice the carrying capacity as their neighbors. That really adds up to $$$ when you look at the cost of land these days.

The BIGGEST problem with intensive rotation IMO is WATER!!! You need to make sure you have a system to water every paddock and not overlap within the parasite cycles. I haven't figured that one out for my land, yet.

I can't say much about the plan you have because it's so dependent on your local climate and conditions....try and seek out as much local knowledge as you can and integrate that with the basic principles.

I do think that it is good to build Flexibility into the system. You can set up a plan on paper that works like clockwork but there are a lot of variables....maybe a seasonal drought or flooding or a hard winter and late spring. And your herd / flock sizes will vary, as will their nutritional requirements across the seasons. So it becomes important to develop a good eye for estimating forage volumes and grazing times and recovery and animal condition....you need to develop a sense of how hard you can hit things at different times of the year, and how they will bounce back. Walk your pastures a lot and observe, and adjust. If you have portable fence you can adjust paddock size, otherwise you are limited to adjusting grazing time or stocking density.

I don't think it's a good idea to follow the exact same pattern and timing every year, both for pasture health / diversity and for parasites...natural systems don't work that way...introduce some variability and mix up the impacts...(ie you could be hitting one plant in your mix at a vulnerable time in it's life cycle every year in one of the paddocks and it would go out of the mix)

I think I would like to see more species diversity in the grazing mixes....I think animals do better on a diverse diet, and you would have a bit more resilience in the system if you get a season or two that isn't ideal for a particular plant.

No idea what your springs are like, but it is my most awkward season...when the ground is wet and easily trampled, and the grass can't keep up i need to either contain everything in a sacrifice area and feed, or spread the impact over as wide an area as possible, then go back to paddocks later on..

The 'stockman grassfarmer' is a good resource.

I like your seven day paddocks. The really high density mob grazing is pretty labour intensive...you have to be right on it every day, even hours can make a difference. It is also geared entirely to production and is ok in open fields of agronomics...but if you are trying to also maintain some wildlife habitat and value or native plant diversity within your pastures then it's a no-go.

I'm just trying to learn this, so don't take anything I say too seriously, but it's helpful for me to write about as I'm thinking about these things too...now it's time for me to get out and do a paddock move...

Rotating the chickens in serves multiple functions.

The chickens will scratch apart the patties to get to the eggs and larva. This helps distribute the manure more evenly over the pasture. The more they eat, the fewer flies you will have for the next rotation into that paddock.

The chickens should share the paddock at least part time. The larva begin being active in 3-4 days. So, let's say you move your cattle every Monday, then on Wednesday or Thursday, move the chickens into that same paddock. As the cattle get moved next Monday, the chickens remain there until next Wed/Thur, when they again mix into the cattle's paddock. This way, you can maximize the amount of protein the chickens are getting, while minimizing the fly population. You want them eaten before they can fly.

Don't worry if some (or all) of the chickens follow the cattle on their move - they recognize a free meal when they see it!
If they all want to go along with the cattle drive, it probably means they have eaten most of the larva.
They will convert all of those flies into valuable manure.

I think it's important to limit clover/legumes in pasture as the lush spring growth can cause bloat. I'd have a good look at non-legume/grass species: forbs like chicory, dandelion and plantain are great nutrient accumulators in pasture.

Leila Rich wrote:I think it's important to limit clover/legumes in pasture as the lush spring growth can cause bloat. I'd have a good look at non-legume/grass species: forbs like chicory, dandelion and plantain are great nutrient accumulators in pasture.

Good call! I've been looking at lots of additional plants to integrate into the pasture seed mixes. One BBC-produced permaculture documentary showed a pasture with a densely vegetated mix of what they said included more than twenty different species together! Anybody with any experience with any of these feel free to chime in, mention whether you think they're better suited to grazing in specific months, or if they shouldn't be included at all! I'm limiting myself to what should grow in southern New England:

Additional grasses:
Kentucky Bluegrass
Meadow Brome-Grass
Smooth Brome-Grass
Crabgrass
June Grass
Sweet Grass/Holy Grass
Sweet Vernal Grass
Velvet Grass
Quackgrass

Legumes:
Birdsfoot Trefoil
Field Peas
Cow Vetch
Lespedeza
Sainfoin

Other Plants:
Ox-Eye Daisy
Pearl Millet
Proso Millet
Rapeseed
Turnips
Chicory
Dandelions
Plantains
Salad Burnet
Echinacea


What about poppies and asters? Are those any good? Are there any other good field flowers and natives that can be mixed in? I've heard that Blue Flax are a little risky. I've heard buckwheat isn't good for cattle; if not, what's another good early-starting spring plant for the early months in the growing season? What other forbs and herbaceous plants can be included?

Animals love comfrey. I'm talking the sterile Bocking cultivars, we don't have symphytum officinale ('true comfrey') here and the idea of comfrey seeding makes me nervous There's lots of conflicting info on comfrey's affects on animals...here's a thread with some ideas:
https://permies.com/t/1174/permaculture/value-comfrey
Was it asters that Greg Judy was talking about?
Do you grow cocksfoot grass over there? It's a popular forage grass over here, very deep-rooted and drought-resistant.
I'd definitely keep the Lotus (trefoil) family in mind and this looks interesting: Sulla (Hedysarum).
I'm unfamiliar with many of those grasses, but whatever I've read about quackrass always has the words "how do I get rid of" attached Not neccesarily an issue in pasture, but if it's not everywhere already, I'd be wary of bringing in something your neighbour's children's children may curse you for!

Yes on the cocksfoot, that's our orchardgrass!

Patrick Winters wrote:I see a lot of discussion of how many animals per acre, and lots of talk about the clear superiority of rotating paddock systems. What I don't fully understand is whether the acreage estimates take paddocking into account, or whether these estimates expect you to multiply them by 3 or 4. If you have 50 cattle on lush pasture, would it be 100 acres split into four 25-acre paddocks with rotation every couple weeks, or would it be four 100-acre paddocks?

It's complicated.

It is better to have many smaller paddocks that you move the animals through. This helps them graze down all species of forage rather than cherry picking, reduces soil compaction and breaks parasite life cycles naturally.

The paddock size should be such that the animals eat it down in a few days to a week.

The number of paddocks should be such that the animals don't return to a paddock for at least 22 days and ideally 30 days or more. This is to break parasite life cycles.

The rotation should be fast enough that the animals come onto the paddock when the forages are smaller and more tender.

The animals should leave the paddock before they graze it down to the crowns or damage the root structure overly much.

How big your paddocks are and how many paddocks depends on how big your animals are, how many there are, how much land you have and how fast it grows which depends on soil, water and season.

How many animals you have should not exceed the carrying capacity of your land.

How many animals you have should ideally not be too far below the capacity of the land, not less than maybe 3x or 4x.

It is fine to rest a field for a year which kills of parasites that are longer lived without letting weed species become dominant.

Beware of high traffic areas getting beaten up. This happens in nature on game trails and around watering holes too.

I deal primarily with poultry, sheep and pigs but the principles are the same with cattle, goats and humans. See:

http://sugarmtnfarm.com/how-much-land-per-pig/

Cheers,

-Walter

You guys have any opinions on alternate additions to the forage? Poppies? Asters? Echinacea? Buckwheat? Ox-Eye Daisies? Rapeseed? What else besides the usual grasses and legumes make good additions to seed mixes for cattle?

Patrick, I see you have a number of annuals listed (field peas, millets, crab grass). That's fine, but I'm not sure I would include too many fast growing annuals like millet in a perennial pasture that you are trying to establish. We use perennials to take the slump out of the grazing season when the cool season grasses slow down in the summer, they have their place. We have a mix of about 20 species in our cool-season irrigated pastures. You want to be around 30% legumes, non bloating are great but alfalfa is workable. There are techniques you can use to manage bloat risk, but there will always be a risk when it's in a lush stage.

We mob graze several hundred pairs of cattle, grass finish our own cattle and graze our own herd of about 200 sheep, followed by laying hens. We don't graze the same way every day, week or year. The flexibility of poly wire fencing is great, but I would suggest high tensile 5-wire perimeter fences. It's nice not moving portable fencers around and checking batteries. We just wrap the poly wire around the reel's hook and hang them on the fence.

I'm not a huge fan of strict MIG grazing or MOB grazing, it's nice to have a mix of what works best for you. As mentioned earlier, water can be the most limiting factor. I would almost suggest running sheep out in front of the cattle (especially if you have young lambs), as they will take the weeds out and leave the grass. However it may be more work than it's worth. The rule of thumb I've always heard is 1 large ewe or doe per cow, if you run a smaller animal like we do then it's probably closer to 2 per cow (ewes about 130-150, does about 40-60). It all depends on your weed pressure and if you want them to eat grass or not.

I would object to the idea that all mob grazing is bad for wildlife. I have seen paddocks we mobbed with birds' nests still hanging in tall weeds and more prairie chickens than I have ever seen. However we do not nub any pasture down, we take half and leave half. There is quite a bit of cover even in paddocks we graze, and if we want the grass to recover faster we only take 25%.

Hi Taylor, nice to get your perspective...I aspire to what you are achieving, although I'll always be smaller scale as I don't want more than I can direct market.

Could you please tell us how on earth you manage sheep with portable electric? My cows are trained and have all sorts of respect for just single wire. The sheep could care less. I am currently using electric netting because I feel like i need the predator protection as well, but it is a major pain to move it and it seems crazy expensive.

I'm also curious about how you contain or direct chickens in your set up.

I also like the idea of multi strand electric perimeter and I can't' wait to do it....did you start from scratch or replace barb wire? I'm not looking forward to getting the barb wire out.

oh, and re wildlife and mig or mob grazing...i don't mean to say anything categorical...local context and timing are key...in my case i have a lot of shrubby fairly open deciduous woodlands that i value for habitat..they have some good grazing but i know that if i hit them very hard at all with my Highlands i would get major tree loss and a shift towards more of a grassland system...

I am a fan of using temporary electric fencing rather than set paddocks. I move our two steers each evening or late afternoon and it takes me about 20 minutes. We are having a very dry season right now and the grass in the pasture has slowed it's growth. With temporary fencing I can make the steers daily paddock a bit larger during this dry time and shrink it back if it rains next week and the pasture returns to it normal growth. I can not do that with permenent paddocks. I also have a couple of areas that I want to extend our pasture into. I will first go out and cut a path around parimeters and put the steers on it for a couple of days, then go in and start clearing some of the unwanted growth. Some of this area I want to use is always very wet in the spring, but during these dry seasons it would be an asset as extra pasture and will give our drier ground a break. I think that we want to have a very diverse mix of plants in all of our grazing areas, and then encourage what would be more natural for either our drier or wetter areas. There is a real advantage to being out with both your animals and plants daily, even if it is just for a 20 minute move. I see the conditions of the animals, the plants, and the soil. I can see how much the steers have eaten or what they have not eaten. I can notice that where I had the chickens in pens over the pasture that the types of growth is different; less weeds, moss and woody plants and more clover. Part of raising our own food is not based on the economics, but rather on choices of lifestyle and looking at economics from a different perspective. Firstly, we feel that for ever dollar we are not spending for our food or heat or what ever it is we can do for ourselve has the same economic impact as around $1.50 in wages. I think that we don't look at our jobs and income with the objectivity to see that there are costs both in time and money to have that job and income. We don't factor in things like comute time, time to decompress, expences for attire, time to prepare and this is a cost that is over looked for the most part. The time I spend daily in the care for the animals, pasture and garden is economically some of my most profitable time, let alone some of my most fulfilling time each day. This is even in light that I am self employed and my hourly shop rate is higher that most wages or salaries. I think that it takes a change of perspective to look at changing from I work for someone else, (I sell my time to another), to what I really spend my time doing and exchange the wages of that time for in possesions.
kent

kent smith wrote:I am a fan of using temporary electric fencing rather than set paddocks. I move our two steers each evening or late afternoon and it takes me about 20 minutes.

With small numbers of animals the temporary fencing works great. With larger herds I really like more permanent fencing. We have about 300 head grazing in multiple herd groups. Taking 20 minutes to move each group each day would be too much time.

Another advantage of the permanent fencing the way we're doing it is we have fruit and nut trees that are protected by the fencing. This produces orchard paddocks which provide both grass and legume forages as well as fruits and nuts in their seasons. Permanent fencing is very nice for that.

Cheers,

-Walter Jeffries
Sugar Mountain Farm
Pastured Pigs, Sheep & Kids
in the mountains of Vermont
Read about our on-farm butcher shop project:
http://SugarMtnFarm.com/butchershop

I agree with Walter. Permanent fencing saves a lot of time, you can still divide the pastures with temp fencing as needed.

Kari, I should clarify a few things. I am not the owner of the operation but I do manage all of the livestock. I started working at Fulton Farms in early March of 2011, and am the only full time employee (we have interns from time to time).

When I started here we were also using the polynets. As you pointed out they are way too labor intensive to move if you have a lot of animals. We were moving them every day and just couldn't manage it any more. The previous year, the number of sheep and goats on the property was quite a bit lower so polynets were fine. Our perimeter fences are five strand high tensile 12ga. wire, all hot. The bottom wire is about 8-10" off the ground, second is about 18-20", then the spacing moves to about 12". Most of the fences are steel posts with wooden stays spaced about 33' apart. The fences that were already built when I arrived had a bottom wire at 12", not-hot, we electrified the wire and it has worked to contain the animals as well. Some of the fences are built on old barb wire posts, and some are just off-set wires run on old barb wire fences.

We also have some permanent dividing fences. They are 3-wire high tensile, bottom wire about 10", top wire about 3". No stays, just steel posts.

The temporary fences are pretty simple, we use poly posts and poly wire. For sheep or lambs we run 2 wires, one around 12-15" and one about 30-35". For goats we run one at 10'', 20", and about 30-36". The wires need to be fairly hot for goats, at least 3000 volts or so. The key is to provide plenty of space for the animals to roam, and don't let them get too hungry. We didn't have much luck trying to build small paddocks for goats with polywire, they wanted to roam. With paddocks of a few acres, nothing ever gets out.

We use a great pyr pup and a Llama (not in the same pasture) for predator control. Our laying hens are in a large egg-mobile and we just let them roam in the pasture behind the ruminants. We keep a poly fence between them so the sheep don't eat any chicken feed.

I understand what you meant about the wildlife now, and you are correct.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask

how might one measure how many lbs of food a chunk of land is currently producing?
im looking for an answer to how big i must make my paddocks for a small flock of 6-8 chickens, i calculated with cornish cross chickens (quite a bit bigger than what i would get i believe) and they would need each paddock to produce 30 lbs of food during the week they are in there and im not sure how to measure how much land that would currently be in my lands mostly unimproved state...