Bone sauce bones

Do the bones for the sauce need to be raw? I'm reading of failures in the effectiveness of the sauce but the sauce was made with cooked bones. Maybe the answer is already out there but I haven't found it.
Thanks

Paul's podcast describing making bone sauce with Sepp talks about what bones to use. Old bones are good, very fresh or frozen bones are ok, but really old dry bones with no marrow or other gunk in them are useless.

But I can't remember if the bones can be cooked!

Here's the podcast: http://www.richsoil.com/permaculture/1818-170-sepp-holzer-last-day/

The only failure reported so far has been with donkeys, which I don't think anyone had ever tested before.

Sepp used to use raw bones and bones from smoked meats. Other people have used cooked bones successfully, just not against donkeys. I'll try again with raw bones, but it could just be that donkeys are a bit too strong-willed to be deterred. It's going to take a couple of years to gather enough 'tests' to be absolutely certain what is important and what isn't. The more of us who try it, report what bones we used, what pots and pans we used, how charred the bones were, and how effective the sauce bones were against which animals, the sooner we'll be able to build a better picture.

But I can't remember if the bones can be cooked!

I've looked around for the answer, watched videos, podcasts and if there's one that specifies raw I haven't found it.

The only failure reported so far has been with donkeys,

I realize that, but is it the donkey or the cooked bones or a fire that might not have been hot enough. I get that we need to experiment, I also like access as much existing knowledge as I can.

So if Sepp's recipe calls for raw or smoked bones then that's the answer. Cooked bones maybe don't quite do the job if some animals get through. That's not to say it shouldn't be made with cooked bones just that our expectations might need to be lower because we haven't followed the recipe. Perhaps it's not a failure just a different recipe.
Could a link be posted to the source of info on the raw or smoked bones? It's a source I haven't been able to find and would appreciate hearing it. Thanks.

sheryl hansen wrote:
Could a link be posted to the source of info on the raw or smoked bones? It's a source I haven't been able to find and would appreciate hearing it. Thanks.

I'm pretty sure it was one of the latest podcasts, with Paul describing the bone-sauce making session with Sepp. Try the link above that Ludi posted. It's gonna take me hours to find it otherwise and I'm a bit hectic atm.

I'll watch it again, who knows, I might have missed a couple of critical words.
Thanks

Found it! In the Bone Sauce Podcast - 27 minutes in Paul talks about how Sepp rejected some old bones that looked like they had been hanging around outside for years, was delighted with a load of smoked bones, and declared 'das ist gut' when he was presented with some 'fresh' bones from the freezer and used them to fill the rest of the pot up.

Thanks. I'll listen to it a third time.
We're to understand then that 'fresh' means raw?

I think that the preserved/smoked bones are supposed to be the best. Fresh and frozen are acceptable. Stuff that is really old and sunbleached is useless.

So, when you used the word fresh you mean raw? It may seem obvious to the user of the word but to my thinking something can be freshly cooked. Sorry for being so picky but I want to KNOW.

Yup - raw.

We bow to thee in thanks.

I haven't seen mention of an important factor involved in the bone salve mixture. In his book "Permaculture" Sepp talks about bone salve on pages 114-115, and 166-168. He says that to the bone salve made in the cast iron pots, he adds linseed oil, slaked lime, fine quartz sand, and fresh cow dung. These ingredients and made to a spreadable consistency.
He explains that the oil helps bind the ingredients of the salve together and makes sure the salve adheres to the bark. The slaked lime is beneficial to the trees because it emits heat. It also helps to combine the bone salve and other ingredients. The cow dung helps to bulk the salve out... and give the salve a good consistency. ...the quartz sand ..causes an unpleasant sensation between the teeth.
He observed a deer and fawn eat a couple of bites of the plant which was painted with the salve and says "...For the first couple of bites I see no reaction. Then in the next bite there must have been a drop of my salve. The result: all of a sudden the deer began to act a little crazy. It gagged, threw its head from side to side, ran forward wildly and tried all it might to wipe the taste from its mouth on the grass. The fawn reacted in the same way soon afterwards..."

I asked about details in getting that stuff and he said to not bother. So I didn't. I guess they were optional?

OK so here's my question about the bone sauce routine: what about the leaves and branches of the tree? It seems like Sepp is saying that somehow the bone sauce gets absorbed into the tree and permeates the whole thing? I have goats that keep escaping and attacking my young peach and apple trees (UGH!) From my understanding I just coat a portion of the trunks with bone sauce and I'm good to go - it just seems to good to be true. (other than the fact that I have to assemble all the ingredients, time and tools to get it cooked). I can imagine going through the whole process only to find afterwards that the goats eschew the trunk for the leaves and branches.

paul wheaton wrote:I asked about details in getting that stuff and he said to not bother. So I didn't. I guess they were optional?

I know a lot of old ladies that say that about their "special" recipes. Then when you try to make it at home, it doesn't taste quite right. I have a few recipe cards from my grandmother-in Law ( is that a word?) and even if I follow it to a "T", it's not quite right. I swear there are eraser marks on the cards too. And I CAN cook. Them sneaky old ladies are leaving stuff out to reserve a monopoly. The tragedy is when they die with the secret ingredient locked away in their heads.

Somebody should run a trial. Bone sauce with grit, without grit. With poo, without poo. etc

Other than the oil and bone reduction stuff that sounds like a biodynamic tree paste, which I have used to heal some pretty sick trees. And to fight peach curl on really infected trees.

Matt mcmenaman wrote:OK so here's my question about the bone sauce routine: what about the leaves and branches of the tree? It seems like Sepp is saying that somehow the bone sauce gets absorbed into the tree and permeates the whole thing? I have goats that keep escaping and attacking my young peach and apple trees (UGH!) From my understanding I just coat a portion of the trunks with bone sauce and I'm good to go - it just seems to good to be true. (other than the fact that I have to assemble all the ingredients, time and tools to get it cooked). I can imagine going through the whole process only to find afterwards that the goats eschew the trunk for the leaves and branches.

let me know if you try! i want goats but am afraid of them getting into my fruit trees.

I think if you put it on the trunk, it stays in that one spot. It doesn't spread to any other part of the tree.

I think that you would want to put some on the trunk and some on the lower branches.