Bitter goat milk

I usually tell people the flavor of the milk depends on:  what the girls are eating and the flavor that “runs in the family”.  Maybe something else I can’t remember right now,

BUT, my doe is now giving bitter milk.  I have never noticed this from her.  I have been milking her for 6 or 7 seasons.

She is eating from the same bale of hay from the same hay grower.  

I did a mastitis test this morning and it was negative.

I would appreciate all your theories, hypotheses, guesses and experiences on this.

Thanks

It's been a while since I've experienced this, but I think the first time it was mineral deficiency in a doe I had just bought (corrected after a few days access to loose minerals free choice).

I also experienced this in a doe I'd had for a while, and it corrected when I started giving her a bit more grain and some molasses on top. I think I read on some forum that the cure for bitter milk was to "treat for ketosis" and that meant to add more sugar/ carbs so that was what I did. If you don't do grain then maybe try more sweet fruits and veggies like carrots, beets, apples, etc., though if that is the cause then I would think it would take a lot of sweet fruits and veggies to correct. I do not know a ton about grain-free feeding, though I have always fed very little grain compared to most.

The time I remember most as bitter, like just uncomplicated bitter, was the time that more carbs corrected it. The time it was mineral deficiency was more complex and hard to describe; bitter, I think, but also peppery maybe and just weird and unpleasant. Both were a long time ago and it's hard to remember it all precisely.

Very interesting,  Lila.

Your post reminds me that I had several large Hubbard squash I had recently brought out of the root cellar for the goats, and fed them over a 10 day period.  The goat in question only freshened 3 1/2 weeks ago, I have only been milking for 10 days, so the Hubbard squash period could have overlapped with milking and milk turning bitter.

I’ll experiment with getting her some oats… see what happens 😊

I will also talk with my hay growers, see if they always wait until brix has increased before they cut, or could I possibly have gotten a (800 pound) bale cut early in the morning when yesterday’s sugar had been metabolized overnight, and the plant hasn’t had time to produce more.

We don’t always have dew in the morning….

I am intrigued by the idea that the goat could be in ketosis, intrigued by the idea ketosis could give the milk a bitterness, do ketones have a bitter flavor?  I will be doing what ever research I can while I get on the other things.

The milk is OK in bitter beverages such as coffee and tea, doesn’t make a difference in cheese, but definitely not wonderful for drinking, and probably no-kay for ice cream.

Thekla McDaniels wrote:Very interesting,  Lila.

Your post reminds me that I had several large Hubbard squash I had recently brought out of the root cellar for the goats, and fed them over a 10 day period.  The goat in question only freshened 3 1/2 weeks ago, I have only been milking for 10 days, so the Hubbard squash period could have overlapped with milking and milk turning bitter.

I’ll experiment with getting her some oats… see what happens 😊

I will also talk with my hay growers, see if they always wait until brix has increased before they cut, or could I possibly have gotten a (800 pound) bale cut early in the morning when yesterday’s sugar had been metabolized overnight, and the plant hasn’t had time to produce more.

We don’t always have dew in the morning….

I am intrigued by the idea that the goat could be in ketosis, intrigued by the idea ketosis could give the milk a bitterness, do ketones have a bitter flavor?  I will be doing what ever research I can while I get on the other things.

The milk is OK in bitter beverages such as coffee and tea, doesn’t make a difference in cheese, but definitely not wonderful for drinking, and probably no-kay for ice cream.

I think the doe that had bitter milk that time for me had recently freshened and was high producer. I don't know if the advice to "treat for ketosis" meant they thought a goat with bitter milk was truly in ketosis, or just that the treatment of more carbs would help. My thought was perhaps she didn't have enough sugar to make the lactose that makes milk sweet. Though not sure why it would make it bitter instead of just not sweet. I admit I don't understand deep science very well. Humans go to great lengths to try and put their bodies into ketosis, whereas ketosis in goats will can kill them. All I know for sure is that giving her more grain and some molasses cleared up the issue.

Lots to scratch our heads about!  She doesn’t have ketosis symptoms.

When goats eat cellulose, and rumen fermentation converts it to food, I think they get a lot of glucose….

But me thinking it doesn’t make it true….  

Giving her some oats is a strategy I am willing to try.  She is going to be delighted 😊 !

Have you checked for parasites?

Hmmm, what parasites?  The ones that suck blood internally?  Leaving the animal anemic?

I can check the inside of her eyelid,

I was thinking perhaps the common stomach worms.  Don't know but have heard that they can affect the taste of milk.

Brian, I don’t know about stomach worms, the “barber pole” worm, Haemonchus contorta, is the scary one to me.  I looked at her eyelid, and it’s not as red as I would like.  

I began to search worming, and find that goats have a lot or different kinds of worms that are no big deal, the barber pole worm load often increases after kidding.  There aren’t any good ways to treat it.  I found a podcast from Deborah Niemann, author of Raising Goats Naturally, podcast called the thrifty homesteader.  I read the transcripts of 2 episodes on goats and worms and what to do.  Mainly prevent it!

She discusses DE in her book, and so far the results are inconclusive.  Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t.  I’ll be giving her DE tomorrow along with her oats and sunflower seeds, in larger amounts, as her rumen adjusts.

This is an all new problem for me.  I used to be so smug!  But I have recently lost use of wilderness brush pasture where they spent more than 6 months a year.  Almost 18 months ago they moved into essentially a 32 foot square pen plus 12 by 15 shed.  I didn’t think worms would be a problem because they don’t eat off the ground, and I am not saying the barber pole worm comes through the skin, but some of the worms do… and prior to kidding make their way to the mammaries and thence to the kids.  It’s quite frightening!

Right now I am overwhelmed with information, need to re read the pod cast transcripts and book section.  

Barber pole worms are a big deal, can be fatal, and progression is or can be rapid!  I am really spooked.  

I found no mention of bitter milk, but I don’t see why flavor of milk would not be affected if she is seriously burdened and physiologically affected.

I am considering stopping milking.  I will watch her eye lid color, will copper oxide bolus, provide more free choice minerals.  I don’t know if there is a source for iron, but will also look into that. She isn’t showing signs of weakness so I think I have a few days to see if an enriched diet makes a difference.  

And continue to “treat for ketosis” as Lila suggested.

The doe under discussion is named is Cedar.  I started supplementing her with oats after Lila suggested “treat as if for ketosis “

I checked her famacha score after Brian mentioned worms.  It’s too low.  

In all the researching I have done, I have read that an increased load of barber pole worms is not unusual following parturition, that a decrease in butterfat can be associated with increased barber pole worm load.  Her milk certainly is lacking her former butterfat levels.

I was sitting in the goat yard yesterday evening and with the light at that angle I could see the outlines of  her skeleton .  She has never been in this bad a condition before, in addition to being bony, her coat is terrible!

My other 2 does look fine, ready to shed out after our long winter.

I have bolused them all with copper.

I am giving Cedar DE,  kelp meal, oats, about 3/4 cup each, 2 or three times a day, and starting slowly, black strap molasses.

I quit milking her.

I did find what I think would be the “best” commercial wormer, but I am hoping not to go that route….

Thinking anemia is the condition that would kill her, I researched anemia.  Iron is required for production of red blood cells, a difficult mineral to supplement because too much is almost as bad as too little.  I went to the local health food and pill store, and was able to buy iron supplements.  I gave her a loading dose this evening, and starting tomorrow will go to double the recommend human dose for three days, then decrease to normal human dose.

We will see what happens.  I am checking FAMACHA every day, hoping to be able to see increasing pink.  I have not found a source for the commercial wormer.  If all the special supplements can tide her through to spring, I can probably get her onto wild feed, which is what she thrives on.

Getting back to the bitter milk not related to having eaten bitter feed, I think it’s a reasonable conclusion that a serious case of anemia would throw off metabolic processes in addition to the red blood cell count.  Milk is taken directly out of the blood.  If the blood isn’t right, how could the milk be right?

So, wish Cedar luck, and I will post changes in her condition.

Thanks

She may be improving.  FAMACHA seems slightly improved, and her coat seemed to have a little shine where there was only dullness and broken hair.

Hi Thekla,

We offer our goats garlic and probiotics to help with parasite management. Dense brush is what they need to eat mostly. We have a simliar situation that our goats are mostly on pasture. However we move them around the farm to eat brush.

I've heard kelp can cause an off taste. We stopped feeding kelp and our milk tasted better.

We adore Deborah. I subscribed to her goat course. Love it.

If a goat is a great milk producer it may mean she doesn't have much defense against worms. As you've probably heard, goats always have some worms. When a doe is a great milker, she puts everything into making a lot of milk...hopefully it starts to clear up.

Is her poop cute little berries?

Hops

Is the hay moldy?

Hi there,
For my goats I used the Hoeggers dewormer. My goats love it!  
Have you tried homeopathy?  Cina is great for parasites. So is the homeopathic remedy gunpowder!  
I use the Cina for my cattle too. DE as well. Internal and external. I take it too!  1 tsp before bed. Great for hair, nails, etc.

Thekla, how is Cedar now? I hope she's much better!

She is her bossy self again. I think I said she’s the herd boss. I am still giving her concentrates twice a day. Ended up giving her the full bottle of human iron supplement. She’s put on a little weight but she’s still bonier than I like. I haven’t completely quit milking her and I did not notice the milk flavor improving even when she improved.  I haven’t tasted the milk lately and since I only use it in my morning tea and coffee type drink which is better to begin with I don’t really know. It is still a mystery to me but my goat I think is going to survive and her three little babies too.

Thanks for your interest and feedback!

We use the herbal Parasite Formula from Land of Havilah Farm. https://landofhavilahfarm.com/loh/product/parasite-formula/ It works really well for all animals, but especially the goats. Just a note on the bitter milk: did you check her bedding? If the goats are sleeping on old bedding (even with new hay on top), the milk can pick up the flavor. We changed the bedding (down to the ground, added new wood chips and hay) and the milk flavor improved.

A note on the seaweed in the diet, I have always feed my goats kelp. It has not affected the flavor. I was out of kelp for a few months and only restarted the kelp after I noticed my goat was not healthy.

I do not think it was that kelp making the milk better.

As for the bedding, I’m not saying that might not affect the flavor but I have used deep bedding for my goats and they would not make it through our cold winterWithout it.  Right n, it’s about a foot thick!  And I will get it cleared out for the year soon.  It makes fabulous compost. Again because the flavor of the milk problem is new and my practice of deep bedding with clean layer on top is long term, I can rule that out as a factor in the bitter flavor as well. I appreciate all the ideas and they may have influence in other situations.

I totally agree with value of deep bedding and its use as compost. Maybe the Sister in charge of goats didn't make it deep enough, but for her goats, changing the bedding did the trick.

Is the milk still tasting bitter? I just started milking one of my does because we separated her little buckling out (along with another buckling), as they were becoming too old to stay with the girls. Anyway, at first her milk tasted awful. it had the mineral-deficiency taste, which gradually cleared up when I put the loose minerals down lower where the goats could more easily reach them, and I also gave them all copper boluses.

But there was still a strong bitter taste. I was only giving her alfalfa pellets on the milk stand (plus hay and/ or forage all day), because I haven't found a good source of organic grain since we moved. So I started giving her an organic goat grain pellet from Tractor Supply along with her alfalfa pellets on the milk stand, and the bitter taste slowly left the milk over the next 4-5 days. I just give her about a cup and a half of grain per milking, but then she is only making a quart a day. If she were a higher producer I would give her more grain. I know grain is controversial, but I really do believe that these higher-producing goats, that have been bred to produce way more milk, for way longer, than a goat would in nature, need those extra calories. Maybe there are other ways to get them than grain, but one way or another they need those calories.

This particular goat is rather on the thin side and a first-freshener that never produced much milk. I only bought her a few months before she gave birth, and she was thin and undersized. Bred at only 7 months old, when she was obviously not nearly big enough. I will milk her for a while and then dry her up and give her a year off to grow before breeding her again.  

Hi Lila! I am glad to hear your goats milk flavor improved.t I breed my goats at seven months but that is after they have been well fed and cared for.g
I just tasted Cedars milk and the bitterness is gone. She is still rough coated but not as bad on the skinny side but not as bad.



I agree about calories being needed for high producers. For the years I had access to the wilderness pasture if a goat couldn’t thrive on that feed, and once a day milking with a cup of sunflowers seeds on the milk stand, then I culled those does. My thinking was they were suited to a different set of circumstances. I think we can breed our goats away from the high production through high dependency on concentrates, but it’s a long process, just like the process that created these high maintenance over producers😊.

Thank you so much for starting this thread! I've got a first freshener this year who has bitter milk, totally undrinkable, and I know her dam has the best milk ever.

When I was milking the dam last year, I noticed an improvement in flavor when I accidentally switched from "lactating goat feed" to "meat maker" grain. Nanny Doe seemed to like the textured better than the pelleted grain, and probably started eating more. It has a higher protein ratio too. I also noticed a change for the better when I ran out of alfalfa hay and could only buy Timothy. So I was super surprised this year when the yearling had awful milk, since I was still feeding that strategy.

Anyhow, I started upping Pinkie Pi's grain ration after reading this thread, and even though it's only been two days, her milk is drinkable! (I guess it's been more like 4, because I was forcing her to stand for her kids to nurse first thing in the morning and bribing her with an extra scoop)

I did have to treat her for pregnancy toxemia (ketosis) because she was fat when she was bred and had a twelve hour labor and had ketones in the 40 level after she gave birth. I stopped treating when her ketones got down to 5, but apparently I should have kept up.

I'm keeping 4 NDs on a suburban lot, so grain and hay are necessities. I'm working on establishing more forage via a willow hedge and coppicing hazelnuts, but I just don't have the land not to import feed right now. As soon as we can get a loan, my husband has decreed that we're buying a farm. But we'll be here for at least another year. And it sounds like even after we have a farm, I'll be growing grain to support keeping my goats' milk delicious.  

Thank you so much for all your ideas!

Something to look into if you’re going to be feeding…

Fodder systems, where you germinate the grain, which changes the nutrition profile.  For example in addition to the chlorophyll, I think protein increases and carbohydrates decrease, and maybe roughage increases. Something like that

Fodder systems might seem off topic, but goats on fresh green feed make VERY SWEET MILK.  With a fodder system, you germinate oats or another grain or mix of grains. So often you hear repeated that, being browsers, goats should only eat brush.  My goats LOVED fresh green grass seed in the spring , would choose that over fresh new shoots on shrubs and scrub, or woody growth on shrubs.

It’s true you can feed goats “wrong”, you can kill them with abrupt changes in their feed… it’s my observation that goats with free choice feed will not poison themselves (though they can  bloat themselves, the greedy things🥰 ), but I have heard people say alfalfa is too rich for goats… and you should never feed it, but I think the extra protein is appropriate for lactating does.  I went through a phase when that’s all I fed them:  alfalfa.  They were fine, or I was lucky.  There’s always that.

What ever they eat is going to affect the flavor of the milk.  I had friends who said every spring their doe would eat the new sprouts on poison oak, and everyone in the household would get a mild case of poison oak, but no one got poison oak any other time of year.  They thought the exposure through the milk immunized them.  Once I had a doe eat a whole huge patch of day lilies.  When I milked her, it reeked of onions!  (Day lilies are in the onion family- if you want a showy appetizer or salad, make stuffed day lily flowers, only don’t stuff with something sweet, use egg salad or celery and garlic chèvre)  That onion scented milk did not go into my tea, but it made excellent savory chèvre.  The share holders begged for more, but she didn’t ever get into the day lilies again.  You know how they are!

I've actually been looking into starting a fodder system. [And now I've spent an hour trying to find the resources I know I had to share the research, unsuccessfully]

I know I heard somewhere that 4 days seems to be the sweet spot between mineral availability/caloric content/not getting moldy. I want to say the permaculture voices podcast, but I can't find the episode now.  It may also have been the survival podcast.

It's good to know that fodder could improve milk flavor as well as the nutritional value. Guess that project is going up the priority list.

My mother's research when we had our goat dairy in the 1950's indicated they needed the culture from apple cider vinegar to support makin butyrate. when hay we supplemented with molasses  to keep the culture alive. We had an abundance of apples to make our own vinegar. We also had to supplement with cobalt chloride to keep the B12 level up.

I have learned that Cobalt deficiency can cause bitter or off-tasting milk. I get it in a mineral block because they don't need a lot so can usually get what they need from a block for maintenance. You can also get cobalt sulphate or cobalt carbonate powder and make a 1% solution much as you would with copper sulphate for a deficiency ( 20 ml twice per day) until she's back on track and then go to maintenance.
Cobalt seems to not be available in hay or pasture plants in drought years when you'll see more deficiencies.
Cobalt is the precurser to B12 , but it works better that giving B 12 itself.
Giving supplemental Selenium can block Cobalt uptake as well as copper and Iodine
Cobalt also helps prevent parasites.

Just a quick note to say that cedar is fine, though still bonier than I would like, and her milk is fine and sweet tasting.

I am still giving her sunflower seeds, oats , kelp and molasses twice a day.

Thanks for all your ideas