How to create water for drinking and washing in the winter.

Greetings folks. I'm exploring some simple ways to collect water this winter for drinking or washing from rain or snow. I have a couple of rain barrels and gutters to wash down the rain or snow. How I defrost the water to make way for drinking or washing? And how I keep my pipes from being frozen? Any way to heat or cool water during winter from rain barrels or other places of water storage? Water has been viciously scarce these days throughout the world and it's time take control of our own water resources. Please drop some stuff at boxes below to make this topic more edifying. Take care.

Anxious to see what you come up with, the only way i know of to keep water from freezing or to melt it after it's frozen is using heat and heat costs money (fuel, electricity, etc).  There may be a clever geothermal way to do it but even that requires power to run pumps or heat exchangers.  Electric heat tape usually works well to keep pipes from freezing but uses quite a bit of power to do so.

You have asked a lot of questions.

To keep pipes from freezing, build a Rocket Stove:




To make water:

Anne! What's happening? As you know I love to ask many questions into many topics that nobody has addressed yet on this site that could help us and our families live better lives in difficult times in this world. I ask questions for edification and help from the audience on a particular subject or lesson that I don't understand. I watch videos sometimes on how I make things to help my gardens and my home to make them as substainable as they can be. Thanks for stopping by.

Ask away!  I wanted to say something like I might have to make several posts to answer them.

Hmm! It seems to me this forum is practically an encyclopedia of how to do the things the OP asks about. Better still: they are done in creative and innovative ways that require little money, only effort and savvy.

The search function in the bar at the top of the page is quite effective. Start from permies.com/forums to search the entire forum.

As well, anyone can search the entire forum using duckduckgo.com by entering the search term followed by site:permies.com/forums

This is seriously worth a try! The answers are already here.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:Hmm! It seems to me this forum is practically an encyclopedia of how to do the things the OP asks about. Better still: they are done in creative and innovative ways that require little money, only effort and savvy.

Douglas, you are right!  There is just about any subject a person can think of right here on the forums.

If no one asked questions the forum might die.  Some of the forums I used to frequent have all died from a lack of people asking questions.

If you have any questions on these subjects ask away.




source

Haha, you're right Anne. Feed the machine!

Good morning folks. Could gallons of rain barrels work off grid in urban areas in case if electric power and water quit running for any reason and having a system that defrosts to keep water running throughout the winter? I'll go watch one of the videos being presented and go from there.

Blake Lenoir wrote: How I defrost the water to make way for drinking or washing?

Do you have a heated indoor space? Bring pails of snow and ice inside to melt. I do that to provide good water for my wife's houseplants.

Also, catch pails of liquid water off roofs during warm spells. Bring them inside. This saves energy because the water is already liquid.

And how I keep my pipes from being frozen? Any way to heat or cool water during winter from rain barrels or other places of water storage?

Rain barrels and pipes will freeze solid in winter. The water expands into ice and that cracks barrels and pipes open. I think the only practical way is to have your water storage inside a heated space.

Blake Lenoir wrote: Could gallons of rain barrels work off grid in urban areas in case if electric power and water quit running for any reason and having a system that defrosts to keep water running throughout the winter?

You would need a heat source that does not rely on the electrical grid. All of this is easier if the water is stored inside the heated space you live in.

In pioneer times, the large water tanks for livestock had a wood/coal heater immersed in them so the water would not freeze. These had to be fired up twice per day.

There is something to be said for simplicity.  

The problem is, most modern western people expect that they will have pressurized hot water on demand, and to have outdoor snow converted into that is complicated.    

I think the idea of heating snow purposefully, using electricity is a very inefficient use of energy since most of your water needs do not need to be hot, but converting electricity to heat is inefficient, and heating water is particularly so.  

Simply bringing buckets packed with snow into the house will result in water, with no additional energy.  It will take time, but inevitably the snow will melt.  As it melts, add more snow to it from a smaller pail; since the snow has a lot more volume than the water it will produce, this will take a few top-ups.  Multiple pails melting snow would help the cause.  

I once read a cool book by a lady who was living in the deep woods with her family.  Her husband created a system that involved a shute that could be opened.  The opened shute deposited snow from the roof through the wall and into a reservoir that was against the back of the wood heater.  The volume was large enough that the snow became water but was not hot.  Water could then be put in a pot on the top of the wood heater to make hot water.  No extra energy was needed for the operation, except that slightly more heat was needed as the hatch would bleed heat upwards when it was opened, and the water itself was a constant drain of heat from the wood heater, so a bit more wood would be required to supplement those losses.  An additional bonus, however, would be that the air would be humidified, which is a problem in the winter in many places.     Wilderness Mother by Deanna Kawatski

Seems to me the basic function requested here is met with a basic RMH install. Take some sort of (coated, food grade?) metal bucket, scoop a bunch of snow into it (or set up another collection process), and set it on top of the radiant chamber/barrel. The heat radiating in this direction is doing the least to improve the experiential environment of the home. The ratio of water to snow is small, so this is labor intensive in line with the idea of feeding a J-tube- more intensive than a 'normal' wood stove or batch box heater. Ways to streamline the process could be rigged. This would generally be for non-potable water, I think some of the posts above cover making the water more pure.

I have related questions about possible contaminants from various surfaces that might be used to collect rain/snow. Is something collected from regular metal roofing considered clean? Are 'food grade' gutters available from the industry?

Great post. We’re in the zone 7 mountains of western North Carolina. It can get cold at night but warm right up during the day. So I’m a bit doubtful our water barrel will freeze solid. BUT should we have a real cold snap is there anything I can do to prevent the barrel cracking should it freeze? When I was a child in Michigan I remember the local swimming pools were not drained during the winter but they would put floating objects in which I had assumed allowed for expansion.
And btw this is another good thread!
On a very side note: I can’t figure out how to give thumbs up?? Sometimes this site is a complete mystery to me!
Another thing is I can’t figure out pie - what it’s for, how to “use” it etc.

While this book may not address the questions in this thread it very well may prove to have some helpful information.

practical advice on how to quit the rat race and live frugally.

https://permies.com/wiki/51907/Possum-Living-Dolly-Freed

From the book cover:

she hopes to inspire you to do some independent thinking  how economics affects the course of your life now and may do so in the coming "age of shortages".

Just something that might be thought-provoking.

Blake Lenoir wrote: Greetings folks. I'm exploring some simple ways to collect water this winter for drinking or washing from rain or snow. I have a couple of rain barrels and gutters to wash down the rain or snow. How I defrost the water to make way for drinking or washing? And how I keep my pipes from being frozen? Any way to heat or cool water during winter from rain barrels or other places of water storage? Water has been viciously scarce these days throughout the world and it's time take control of our own water resources. Please drop some stuff at boxes below to make this topic more edifying. Take care.

There are 3 ways to keep drinking water from freezing solid when the weather turns cold:
Applying heat or keeping the water moving, or burying a cistern.
Simple but not cheap are all the electric tools to reliquify honey: Sometimes, honey will crystallize and folks often do not want to buy solid honey. Applying heat to the outside of the drum barrel with a wide belt device will save the day.
https://www.mannlakeltd.com/beekeeping/extraction-bottling/honey-bottling/immersion-heater/

I think the drum heater, lower left, might be useful to you. They can be placed around metal or even plastic drums with no risk to melting the drum.
Other than that, Painting the barrel black and placing it in the sun, away from cold winds might work, depending on where you are. The blue barrels won't crack as a result of thawing and freezing cycles like the white ones will.
Collecting water from a roof means that you are right alongside a building. Would you be able to wrap/insulate the rain gutter and poke a hole inside of the building and collect the water from inside the building? [I am sure it won't be up to code, but...] Is the building insulated, maybe even heated? [It might not look pretty from the outside, but hey. Water is important enough to make aesthetic sacrifices, right?] Just make sure you have a way to get rid of the excess water. [Have several barrels, connected in series, so that as one gets full, another picks up the surplus?
If not electric heat, a pond agitator might work on the principle that moving water does not freeze [solid].
https://www.livingwateraeration.com/collections/kasco-deicer-water-agitators

You would have to see if you can get a size that would fit inside a barrel. when you click on a picture, it leads you to a "page not found" screen. However, the literature on it is helpful. It advises to check near marinas: boat owners fear damage to their boats from ice forming on lakes.
You did not indicate where you live or how much cold you have to beat down to have liquid water or how much water you get per year [but you say it is scarce, so....
If none of this is helpful, you might try a cistern.
Many years ago, folks had cisterns right under their homes, with a pail and rope, and later with an electric pump. buried, the water would not freeze. There are still companies that will help you with guaranteed tanks to do just this. Here is one.
https://www.ntotank.com/underground-water-tanks
Depending on your needs, you might be able to get a smaller [and cheaper one] from companies  that deal with agriculture products. A cistern won't help for this winter, but maybe next?
Here, we have in my county [Portage, WI] serious problems with polluted water [nitrate contamination]. I am a strong proponent of cisterns: Rainwater is actually better for you than groundwater. It may be a bit acid, but not so bad that you have to get expensive osmosis systems to rectify your water!
New metal roofing will not leach metals. Asphalt shingles may be problematic [but still not as bad as nitrates!]
Other things to check are your yearly precipitation totals and how deep your water table is. Here, it is only 10 ft. but in some areas of Montana and the Dakotas, water has to be trucked.
What do your neighbors do for drinkable water?
Let us know where you are and what kind of precipitation you can expect. good luck to you.

I collect snow and rain in large, plastic or vinyl trash cans all year. I leave them uncovered, they fill and I use this for watering my garden during the spring and even during the summer months. I simply do not cover the cans, they sit behind the garage and I use the water as needed.

Several years ago, the town/suburb I live in distributed rain barrels, free of charge, to residents. I used this for two seasons but then I thought about the chemicals used in the manufacturing of roof shingles and the possibility of those chemicals getting into the water and then into my food. So, I moved the rain barrel away from the downspout. It still collects rain. I don't use chemical fertilizers or sprays in my vegetable garden, or on my ornamental plants.

Catherine Guzovich wrote:I collect snow and rain in large, plastic or vinyl trash cans all year. I leave them uncovered, they fill and I use this for watering my garden during the spring and even during the summer months. I simply do not cover the cans, they sit behind the garage and I use the water as needed.

Several years ago, the town/suburb I live in distributed rain barrels, free of charge, to residents. I used this for two seasons but then I thought about the chemicals used in the manufacturing of roof shingles and the possibility of those chemicals getting into the water and then into my food. So, I moved the rain barrel away from the downspout. It still collects rain. I don't use chemical fertilizers or sprays in my vegetable garden, or on my ornamental plants.

The shape of the barrels and their thickness will determine if they crack or not in winter. Vase shape is better than cutting the barrel at the very top, with a lip going back towards the center of the barrel.
I've had good luck with the 55 gallons blue plastic barrels. They are at least 1/4"thick through and through. Leaving them uncovered does indeed reduce the danger of cracking, but unless you put mosquito netting over it, in the summer, it may be a breeding ground for mosquitos.
As far as the possible contamination by asphalt shingles, yes, it may pose a danger as asphalt is carcinogenic. But if you think about all the surfaces our water touches before it reaches our glasses, you may be in a 6 of one and half a dozen of the other situation. Copper pipes with lead solder, PVC pipes with cement glue...
Rain water, ground water may both contain poop from birds doing their thing on your roof and the deer/cows/dogs too before water runs underground and hopefully is 'filtered' by a good amount of ... dirt. But humans have a long history of vanquishing these dangers. Chemicals are more dangerous, you are right.
Certainly, rainwater, even running over asphalt shingles is good for your garden and any livestock you may have:
Because they do not live as long as we do, any bioaccumulating chemicals are unlikely to affect them as much as they affect us. They also have different systems, as I'm sure you have noticed if you look at chickens scratching and pecking at dirt, eating questionable food and drinking from muddy puddles, dogs licking each other's... unmentionables, and still, they are doing fine.
I have well water and rain barrel water and I use both. I test my well and my rainwater. My well is quite good by local standards, and my rainwater is every bit as good. [But I should say my metal roof is only 3 years old, so not leaching yet. Knock on wood!]

Catherine Guzovich wrote:I collect snow and rain in large, plastic or vinyl trash cans all year. I leave them uncovered, they fill and I use this for watering my garden during the spring and even during the summer months. I simply do not cover the cans, they sit behind the garage and I use the water as needed.

Several years ago, the town/suburb I live in distributed rain barrels, free of charge, to residents. I used this for two seasons but then I thought about the chemicals used in the manufacturing of roof shingles and the possibility of those chemicals getting into the water and then into my food. So, I moved the rain barrel away from the downspout. It still collects rain. I don't use chemical fertilizers or sprays in my vegetable garden, or on my ornamental plants.

What about the materials in your plastic/vinyl cans? I would trust the water from a rain barrel, at least for a garden. They are usually from food shipping containers, but generic plastic cans are not food grade.

What about the materials in your plastic/vinyl cans? I would trust the water from a rain barrel, at least for a garden. They are usually from food shipping containers, but generic plastic cans are not food grade.

 

I agree.  The vinyl in particular, can be quite toxic, especially when exposed to sunlight.  

The inside of PVC (also a vinyl derivative, that's the V) pipes, are generally considered to be less of a problem for several reasons: 1. is that they are underground; thus not exposed to U.V..  2 is that the glue/cement that is used to bond sections are quite toxic but become relatively inert once they have done their job of joining the pieces of plastic together; some would say totally inert, but I doubt that to be 100% true, but they do have some testing for this that seems to ring true but I couldn't find it right off when I did a quick search for it.  The inner walls of pvc pipes, at least where I live, become encased in calcification or other mineralization thus protecting the running water from actually touching the vinyl walls.  The disposal of PVC pipes is the real toxic nightmare.  look that up.  Be wary for sure.

This is also a possible reminder that when considering buying roofing materials, think about steel (if not replaceable wood shingles), and to think about paying a premium for the highest quality longest lasting types of steel with good coatings that you have invested time in looking at.

As far as biological toxins, some of that can be dealt with with a first flush diverter (google or youtube it), and the rest with a homemade charcoal filter, or, if you want to spend some money, there is the one in the Ted Talk mentioned above by Anne Miller, or other drinking water filters.  

We have a 1000 gallon catchment tank (in zone 6) that collects water off our metal pole barn roof.  We put a small circulating pump down inside it over the winter, and that keeps the water moving.  We also have a small immersible pond heater that comes thermostatically set to just keep the surface from freezing over.  We've experimented with using one or the other or both of these and not had any issues with freezing.  The tank outlet valve is at the bottom and is "freeze proof" so we shut that and drain the hose before our first freeze.  The pump and heater do require electricity, but perhaps someone with electrical and solar experience could wire up a solar panel and battery like the ones used to run livestock fences or gate openers?

Originally we considered putting two or three smaller (275 gal?) square tanks inside the pole barn to help moderate temperatures and aid security, and routing the downspouts through the wall, but the space inside the building got filled up before we got to the water project, then we found a great deal on a never-used "used" round tank, so the tank went just behind the building on the north side instead.  I have materials on hand to sew an insulated weather-proof cover for the tank but have not gotten to that project yet.

I also do like Douglas and haul in 5-gal buckets of snow or rainwater to warm up and use for watering my tropical fruit trees that I bring inside for the winter.  They like that better than the well water.  If it all hits the fan, we'll be filling the buckets from the tank, attaching and detaching and draining the hose after each use, once a day or so.  And maybe using a 2x2 or something to break up any ice that starts to form on top of the tank water if we can't use the heater or pump.  I've been carting around for years a Waterwise non-electric distiller still in its original box, which I can set on the woodstove to distill the tank water for drinking or cooking.  

We also have a wooden recycled wine barrel that I catch rain off our deck roof in, and I have a hand pump that goes down inside it.  These I use each summer, then store the pump in the basement and turn the barrel upside down on the deck for the winters.  Since most of my potted fruit trees etc live on the deck in summer, this is much handier for watering them than going to the tank and hauling watering cans back and forth to the deck.  Plus the barrel and pump is quite decorative on the deck, and if it takes some time for the wood barrel slats to soak up enough water to seal each spring, any leakage just drains through the deck boards to the graded soil below, then continues out to the little butterfly/hummingbird garden I put right next to the deck (where the previous owners had a swimming pool) for my Mom to enjoy.  

Just came across this today in my email... check out this link for a different way to keep water in outdoor containers from freezing!  Don't know how it would scale up, but for smaller containers it sounds like it could help a lot.  (This is a whole article about livestock watering.)

https://f1v3ff69.r.us-east-1.awstrack.me/L0/https:%2F%2Fwww.oakhillhomestead.com%2F2020%2F11%2Fkeep-livestock-water-from-freezing.html/1/01000184dcfd91c9-6942c91e-c42a-4083-bd4d-09644c6b5cf5-000000/4buaMQAMElX_1dk1amv2hV8QQI8=298


In case the link doesn't work for some, the gist is to put 1/4 to 1/2 cup cheap table salt into an 18-20 oz. clean plastic (disposable/recyclable) water bottle.  Fill halfway with hot water, shake to dissolve salt, then fill rest of the way with water.  Put it into the water container you want kept from freezing.  She recommends it for 3 or 7 gallon livestock waterers.  Worth a try!  I'm guessing it is reusable for as long as the bottle lasts...

I just came across something called the Arctic Boy cooler. Apparently back before The Graduate came out (plastics!) and prompted McDonald's to flood the world with the ubiquitous football sideline plastic water coolers, they made those things out of metal. Being in a situation similar to the wheaton labs tipi, I could see a lot of utility in an insulated water container that didn't need to be kept away from direct heat. I'm not seeing details online though, any ideas if there is Styrofoam or something sandwiched between the sides of the galvanized shell? How does galvanization hold up to decades of use, could this be trusted for drinking/cooking water any more?

Coydon Wallham wrote:I just came across something called the Arctic Boy cooler. Apparently back before The Graduate came out (plastics!) and prompted McDonald's to flood the world with the ubiquitous football sideline plastic water coolers, they made those things out of metal. Being in a situation similar to the wheaton labs tipi, I could see a lot of utility in an insulated water container that didn't need to be kept away from direct heat. I'm not seeing details online though, any ideas if there is Styrofoam or something sandwiched between the sides of the galvanized shell? How does galvanization hold up to decades of use, could this be trusted for drinking/cooking water any more?

If you check this link, you can get a pretty good idea of how it works. The outside shell is a galvanized pail. I'm not sure what the rectangular box attached to it is. It looks like a device to hold cups.. The view from the inside reveals a liner like the enamel container you would use for a water bath. It has also a 2 piece lid that rests on it, apparently by gravity. It is hard to say what's between the 2 thicknesses to provide the insulation or if the liner is removable, but I doubt it because of the little tap: It sticks out, so unless it can be unscrewed from the liner, I don't think so.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283848761921?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D1110006%26algo%3DHOMESPLICE.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D243013%26meid%3D5600aebacd21477fbbe8a73702acdc7e%26pid%3D101195%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D383672174557%26itm%3D283848761921%26pmt%3D1%26noa%3D0%26pg%3D2047675%26algv%3DSimplAMLv9PairwiseWebMskuAspectsV202110NoVariantSeedKnnRecallV1BERT&_trksid=p2047675.c101195.m1851&amdata=cksum%3A2838487619215600aebacd21477fbbe8a73702acdc7e%7Cenc%3AAQAHAAABIEro4ql1SUJ1li87bKftud%252BHNR6f%252BZqZvMWaqvYIq1S%252FWkIBqj9FQDQRu6mAcNzuioXWUR932%252F68tDooavd6O6R6pT2TI0uP9Wo30Y%252FqHYHiwXyPZIg60HUdLzSFFG3g%252BLcaNRctDDgKcQOzpyUS8TOsrz6cfgyjORK44rPBeDJyYw%252BXXeBeH3A5k1OreQ%252FjVUHVkh9SR1mDuR1EFCU11xj%252FYf%252FoifCYkZ7W0zG5Whpm2soHef7u4g%252ByCZUQycQ6Tgdx%252FpVhDlF4yOcleX4CymITjU90qUP3oIz1cBuU8z4wrYwtFMhFvpXHrjADT51RlRKguVw6lIE%252FPTsu5GIwLby2HyINrwSTgZAuaTWROZmLh%252BSQAwYjv8KGMt%252BZ%252FZJR3A%253D%253D%7Campid%3APL_CLK%7Cclp%3A2047675
Yikes. That's a long URL.

Looks innocuous enough, but I get the feeling that if there isn't something gicky between the walls, it won't insulate very well anyway. Might be just as good as an uninsulated stainless or ceramic jug. I'll have to keep an eye peeled for old dairy equipment...

Coydon Wallham wrote:Looks innocuous enough, but I get the feeling that if there isn't something gicky between the walls, it won't insulate very well anyway. Might be just as good as an uninsulated stainless or ceramic jug. I'll have to keep an eye peeled for old dairy equipment...

Because it looks like it could have been the ancestor of a thermos bottle, that made me curious to see how Thermos bottles hold the cold [or the heat]. One is foam, the other is by vacuum.
https://home.howstuffworks.com/thermos2.htm
Depending how this container was put together, they might have been as good as our Thermos bottles, at least for a while: an inside jug with the inside covered in ceramic [to keep the beverage clean], some foam on the outside of that, then a galvanized metal envelope outside, welded, screwed or attached with a rubber gasket to the inside jug at the opening of the container and at the dispenser?
The thing could have been as good, depending on the care in fabrication, although the rubber seal might eventually dry and the weld not hold well, but the principles are the same: Foam and vacuum, I think.
I'd like to get a better view of the rectangular metal thingy attached to the back of it. In one of the photos, you can read "cups" so perhaps it even had its own cups to go with.
Pretty ingenious over all.
As far as building one, I would forget about the dispensing mechanism and place 2 containers, one inside the other, fill the wall with extruded foam like "Great Stuff" [not very "permie", I fear], build the cap in the same manner so it fits with the bottom container, then.. I'm not sure  because I'm not a machinist, but it looks possible. Fastening the cap and the bottom together could be done in a manner of ways.
It depends also how long the drink/ water had to be kept cold. I have insulated and carried containers of food wrapped up in several towels and kept the food quite warm for a long time [about 6-7 hours, without opening it].

Coydon Wallham wrote:Looks innocuous enough, but I get the feeling that if there isn't something gicky between the walls, it won't insulate very well anyway. Might be just as good as an uninsulated stainless or ceramic jug. I'll have to keep an eye peeled for old dairy equipment...

Also, to keep stuff really cold, there is a cryogenic storage "dewar", named after James Dewar [1842-1923]. So the knowledge of keeping things really cold for a long time has been around for a while. Here is the Wiki link, just for poop and giggles.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_storage_dewar
I think the affordability of such a device is not within everyone's reach, but it is interesting that there are ways to accomplish that.

Cécile Stelzer Johnson wrote:
Because it looks like it could have been the ancestor of a thermos bottle, that made me curious to see how Thermos bottles hold the cold [or the heat]. One is foam, the other is by vacuum.
https://home.howstuffworks.com/thermos2.htm
Depending how this container was put together, they might have been as good as our Thermos bottles, at least for a while: an inside jug with the inside covered in ceramic [to keep the beverage clean], some foam on the outside of that, then a galvanized metal envelope outside, welded, screwed or attached with a rubber gasket to the inside jug at the opening of the container and at the dispenser?
The thing could have been as good, depending on the care in fabrication, although the rubber seal might eventually dry and the weld not hold well, but the principles are the same: Foam and vacuum, I think.
I'd like to get a better view of the rectangular metal thingy attached to the back of it. In one of the photos, you can read "cups" so perhaps it even had its own cups to go with.
Pretty ingenious over all.

Paper cups came out of the public health scares at the beginning of the twentieth century, so no surprise that they would be incorporated into a water dispenser fifty years later.

My awareness of thermos technology of the time comes from seeing metal thermos vessels that used glass inside to create an insulating vacuum. I recall they insulated excellently, until they were inevitably dropped that is. These coolers just don't look like candidates for that elegant of a design. My money is on foam fill or just empty space.

I did find another one with pics that looked almost brand new with spotless ceramic inside. It would make a nice dispenser of some sort, but of course people want a premium when selling "antiques".

I can't wait to make one of those cement rocket stoves!  

How does galvanization hold up to decades of use, could this be trusted for drinking/cooking water any more?

We used galvanised corrugated iron water tanks for domestic use in homes here, they last about 80 years.
Tanks are usually about 1000 gal. minimum.