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Jami McBride
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Got questions - Get answers 

Q-1:  You never mentioned Sepp's one book in English by name, I have looked and didn't find it - can I buy a vowel?  And was it good, or do you find the video's a better resource for his philosophies? 

Q-2:  And how are his methods working in your neck of the woods?  Can't wait for the Show-n-Tell update.  This stuff is all so great, in theory, but it's the every day application and reasonings/needs behind it's use that brings it within the reach of us all. 

Q-3:  Are you raising pigs yet?  What are your reasons for wanting pigs?  (I'm not sold on pigs yet

Q-4:  Have you made your own rocket stove?  Is there reasons why you haven't made one yet?  I assumed, because you paid for the workshop, that you were needing one.

~Jami
BTW: I love the info about cast iron.  Always been a struggle keeping things from sticking, but then I use coconut oil and felt that added to my woes.  Thanks for the great articles!

 
paul wheaton
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(well, this should probably be split into five threads, but I'll make the best of it!)

Q-1:  You never mentioned Sepp's one book in English by name, I have looked and didn't find it - can I buy a vowel?  And was it good, or do you find the video's a better resource for his philosophies?


Sepp Holzer: The Rebel Farmer

This is the only book of sepp's currently translated to english.  Apparently, two of his other books are currently being translated. 

This book is really a biography.  So it doesn't go much into the details of how-to or why, as much as it goes into stories of his childhood and dealing with the goverment. 

But even his childhood stories are riddled with permaculture wisdom.  Did you see the video on my sepp holzer page where he talks about the crocodiles?

I would say that the book covers a lot of stuff not covered in the videos:  http://www.green-shopping.co.uk/dvds/dvd_pages/dvd1.html

Q-2:  And how are his methods working in your neck of the woods?  Can't wait for the Show-n-Tell update.  This stuff is all so great, in theory, but it's the every day application and reasonings/needs behind it's use that brings it within the reach of us all.


I have pictures of shaping the land and all, but shortly after doing the work, I left that farm.


Q-3:  Are you raising pigs yet?  What are your reasons for wanting pigs?  (I'm not sold on pigs yet



I have raised over a hundred pigs.  Have you seen my articles?

I think pigs are an excellent animal to have on every farm.

Q-4:  Have you made your own rocket stove?  Is there reasons why you haven't made one yet?  I assumed, because you paid for the workshop, that you were needing one.


I will be moving to montana in the next few months and will most likely be building my own within the next year.

BTW: I love the info about cast iron.  Always been a struggle keeping things from sticking, but then I use coconut oil and felt that added to my woes.  Thanks for the great articles!


Does coconut oil lead to sticking?



 
Jami McBride
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Does coconut oil lead to sticking?


That's what I wonder.... it does have a tacky feel when cooking with it, but that could also be my cast iron pans.  I tried to get some good fat (grass feed organic beef) to test out against it, but the deal fell through.  So I have no comparison - yet.

I have raised over a hundred pigs.  Have you seen my articles?


No - I just read some of your debate on pigs and water areas.  I'll go look for 'em.

I will be moving to Montana in the next few months


Wow, Montana - definitely not the PNW!  Your weather will come from the North just like the books talk about, and not off the pacific ocean.  I hope you'll have land to reform  and some forest/hills ♥

Wish you the best with your move....

~Jami

 
paul wheaton
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CurrentWave wrote:
That's what I wonder.... it does have a tacky feel when cooking with it, but that could also be my cast iron pans.  I tried to get some good fat (grass feed organic beef) to test out against it, but the deal fell through.  So I have no comparison - yet.



Look for organic shortening.  It's very good and easy to find.


 
Joel Hollingsworth
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I've used butter, canola oil, olive oil, schmaltz, tallow, lard, sesame oil, rice bran oil, etc.  I find the type of fat matters much, much less than the temperature of the pan.  If it looks glossy, and beads of water dance around rather than bubbling or just vanishing, it should do OK.

Coconut oil is mostly saturated fat, so for high-temperature surface chemistry purposes should resemble hard animal fat.  Vegetable shortening is, chemically, most of the same stuff in different proportions, probably made from palm oil.  I doubt this will change much for you.
 
Leah Sattler
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montana! I thought you just moved to a new place! you don't like it?
 
paul wheaton
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Leah Sattler wrote:
montana! I thought you just moved to a new place! you don't like it?


I am looking for land.  While I'm looking, I have a free place to stay - for a few months.
 
Leah Sattler
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whenever I think of  montana I think of the news story last year of the dude and a woman from here in oklahoma that moved up there. they weren't prepped for winter and the lady and two dogs starved to death. the man was checked on finally by his neighbors on snow mobiles and they found him starved and delirious, they said the only food he had left was  boullion cubes in his pocket. if ever I thought I could live up north that totally wiped out any desire. I would die from clautrophobia if i was trapped in by weather to that extent.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=6758924
 
Gwen Lynn
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Me too, Leah! I have seen some beautiful pictures of Montana though. Paul, I hope you're moving into a scenic area!
 
Jami McBride
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Look for organic shortening.  It's very good and easy to find.


Cool - Thanks Paul.
I have 1/2 organic grass feed beef in the freezer, but when I cook up the meat the little fat I get off of it I reuse in flavoring soups, beans and such.  So I -need- another source.

I find the type of fat matters much, much less than the temperature of the pan.


Hum.... so I'm to hot, very possible as I'm still learning my way around a non-modern kitchen and patience isn't one of my virtues - 

I am looking for land.  While I'm looking, I have a free place to stay


Are going pioneer on us?  I've only been to Montanan in the summer time, up in the northwest corner, next to Idaho and Canada - where abouts are you heading?

hundred pigs.


Okay, I've read the article and you could have covered what I'm about to ask long ago in the forum somewhere, but I haven't found it if you did. So please forgive me if you've covered this before, but.....

I still don't get the benefits of raising pigs - to me they are like chickens in that you have to confine them due to the damage they do on the land.  And you say their hoves really pack the ground - is this good for vegetation growth?  Maybe if a person raises them as Joel Salatin does (mass production - natural style), but for the family farm how do pigs benefit the land, animals and people without being a lot of work?  How can they find most of their own food without tearing the farm apart?  I understand that they eat anything and grow fat quickly, but besides that....?  What if I don't have a bunch of land I want cleared/plowed? *grin*

I'm asking because I'm trying to picture and learn natural methods and benefits of animals on the farm/ranch, and I just don't see how pigs can be raised without  pig chow/feed, confinement and mess. 

Are there smaller breeds of pigs that do less damage, more wild, which are self reliant and easy on the land to raise?  (Am I dreaming?)

Thanks Paul,

~Jami
 
paul wheaton
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Part of me thinks "hey, this isn't about permaculture, I need to move it to the meaningless drivel forum" but it does seem to be about me ... so ... well ...  i guess i should leave it here ... tough call (trying to be a good moderator).

Paul, I hope you're moving into a scenic area!


I lived in missoula for nine years.  I am very excited to get back there.  The rocky mountains.  Real mountains.  Real weather.  Real cold and real heat.  Really cool people. 


I still don't get the benefits of raising pigs - to me they are like chickens in that you have to confine them due to the damage they do on the land.  And you say their hoves really pack the ground - is this good for vegetation growth?


They are a lot like chickens

Pigs are a product and a tool.  First, I do enjoy pork, so if I'm gonna sustain myself, I'm gonna raise pork.

Second, pigs can be too destructive to the land - it is true.  Although I did some of that in the past, I regret it and would avoid it in the future.  A rotational system is better. 

Third, pigs can harvest food all year and then provide you food via pork.  If you do things right, you won't have to buy any feed. 

Fourth, pigs can help to deal with what would otherwise be "waste" - they eat the offal of other animals and they eat cow poop.

When I have an area that is too overrun with brush, it's time to run pigs in there.

If I have a pond that isn't quite sealed, drain the pond and run pigs in there.

The advantages of keeping pigs is very multifaceted.


 
jeremiah bailey
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So, in a nutshell:
Pigs taste good
Make great seasoning for cast iron cookware
Feed themselves
Ease the need for a dino powered bush hog.
Play the role of leaky pond repairman.
Make great game accessories for your favorite winter sports (I added that one)
Eat poop and turn it into more poop.

I wonder if they make good roller/crimpers for no-till crop killing?
 
rose macaskie
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  Jeremiaha baileys getting funny, thats new for me. i am curiouse too but tonight i can't remember what questions i had to ask you.
    I have a lot to say well not so much about farming by rivers i have a really good book magick muck by lady muck, the father of lady muck the author of the book  who got her into selling his manure, had trouble with the river authorities which is what got his daughter into the manure buisness. They were taken to court for mucking up the river and had to pay the fees of the case instead of the fine, as a a favour to her father for being a normally responsible farmer, the same price but less humiliating i suppose. Their answer to the problem was to buy a seperator that divided the muck, cow muck into solid and liquid manure. It seems it is the solid part of muck, that caused the problems in the river because deoxygegenating bacteria that kill life in the rivers stick to the solids in the slurry. so they went on using the liquid part and sold the solid after composting in ¡t and mixing it with peat. She became an expert in manure and composting and gives lectures on these subjects and wrote this really good book that has another bit in it i plan to add to another bit of forum here.
  I thought of you and thought that maybe the english answer was a good one, you fine the farmers and they find a way of keeping their live stock without ruining rivers, instead of absolutely prohibiting livestock near rivers.
  I suppose i would like to know all about your adventures with permaculture, a hundred pigs is a big digging tool. agri rose macaskie. 
 
rose macaskie
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  Caste iron that gets rusty can taste nasty. I find that omlettes fried in my cast iron pan tasty a bit fishy and things cut with my really good iron, rather than stainless steel, knife can taste the same. A non stainless steel knife sharpens easier or never needs sharpening, the scotch brit keeps it sharp. it is great it is the only knife i use, a french make makes them, called sabatier. The knife does not usually smell, i scrub the rust off it with more brio than i srub my pan, i am not frightened of things sticking to the knife I don't cook with it. My iron pan does not seem to effect the taste of a steak however. Eggs take up scents more than other things do.
      I have a recipe that says keep your eggs in a basket next to your trufas and they will take up the taste of the trufas because eggs pick up the taste of other things easily. I have never had any trufas i could keep next to eggs.
      This cookery book writer says the most important thing is to inspire your cook. She said that she hated rice pudding but she read a recipe for rice cream, rice pudding that you then put cream in and leave iin the fridge for a while to soak up the cream, you serve it cold, served in a silver bowl, stuck with a few almonds on top if i remember right . This recipe changed her attitude to rice puddings. agri rose macaskie.
 
Jennifer Smith
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I accidently posted this on grapes... Sorry all
Hey Rose, a tip for you...

If I start to get the funny taste/color you talk of from my pan I wash as usual (hot water no soap) Then as I dry it and oil it on the stove, I scrub with much Brio and a clean luffa (which I grow and think a great addition to the home) and oil as I heat (sometimes add salt). Wipe with clean paper towel and it is again good for my fresh yummy eggs.
 
rose macaskie
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I have never known a scrubbed pan that does not then stick.
  How do you grow lufers? Do you live by the sea?
  A thick bottomed stainless steel pan also does not stick if you don't scrub it shiny clean, i soak and rub anything stuck on with a wooden spoon and clean the grease of but don't scour it. Stainless steel pans don't have that strange taste of iron that cast iron pans have that most especialy appears on a non stainless steel knife for example if you cut some types of vegetables with it, the ones with more corrosive juices.
      I found oiling frying pans  a nuiscance and it feels like a waste of oil but i might try scrubbing with a luffa and oiling, i should in all honesty to my belief in the worth of communication at least try other peoples suggestions though I feel lazy about trying them.
  you need to washh a knife that is not stainless steel imediatly after cutting corrosive things with it or holes appear in it an dnot leav it in the washing up water.
        I try to spend as little time as possible in the kitchen, that always considering i have been strictly brought up to prepare a balanced meal, vegetables proteins and carbohydrates, to, feel responsible for the health of the family and my husband is strangely addicted to the more expensive foods a sort of snobism his parents induced in him a desire to have a really posh meal which means that the occasional light meal which though healthy is not splendid, is difficult to pass off. My father is much worse he wants soup and third course in his main meals. No time for women to do permiculture under a regime of that type and you get called lazy if you don0't comply to whats expected of a woman though you have not stopped all day.
  The food snobism  that make him get annoyed if you serve him good but cheaper types of food chicken, fresh fried sardines, bacon etc. more than very ocassionally though he is not consistent in this dislike of cheap foods loving haburgers for example, the food snobbishness makes him want a full meal and makes it difficult to pass of an occasional liight one. I think bacon woud be as expensive as caviar if it were in short supply but in some people an idea about how dignified a food is leads them to find that humbler ones are less good. food snobbisms distort peoples perception of the aesthetical qualities of a food.
  This conversation about the psychological replies to food can be important, I have heard that the quakers took maiz to ireland in the potatoe famine and that the irish were so  averse to eating food they weren't accostomed to that they refused to eat it would rather die the same was true of fish they could get out of the sea if i remember right, so in introducing healthy diets, a bit of strategy is usefull. The king of france wanted to introduce potatoes so he planted them in his Versaile gardens i think it was with the order no one was to touch them, they were royal food or some such story, sure that such a tale would persuade his subditos to steal and try them and influence them in favour of liking them. inducing a temptation to indulge in immoral behavior. I read the line today or yesterday the man who steals a tree ends up in prision the man who steals a forest ends up sleeping in the lincon bedroom. 
  I hate manipulations you usually perceive the manipulation and feel embarrased by the necessity of uncovering the manipulator and too a bit desperate about the way such behavior take away all fair opportunities of presenting your case from you . How it reduces and makes a fool of you. Manipulations are normal in those who think they are above you, in elitist systems and they prevent full explainations that would educate you.  agri rose macaskie.
 
rose macaskie
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I read a good self help book on starting a business, and it said that if you try to start one both experts and friends who don't have a clue aboutr it will say you aren't apt for it, have no chance and that people will try to whittle away your time and money, i found all this plays out with my life experience trying to do something seems to attract negative notice of others towards  oneself as a owl sitting in a tree attracts cross little birds.
      A book by the English writer Muriel Spark has, as its protagonist, a woman writting a book and things get pretty violent and a friend of hers says that her book causing such a lot of reactions is a good sign. that it must be a worth while book.
      The self help book says that if you make a success of it then everyone suddenly stops being a nuisance and jumps on the wagon.

  If you  have lot of pigs you could may be get a job for yourself taking them to dig other people land. The same maybe goes for hens and geese and other animals, a way of earning money for permiculturists could be to hire out their animals services in farms and gardens and wildernesses. also a way sfor the people suffering fromthe depression oucld be to gt htemslves some animals to work on other peoples lands with. My tehered goat can save you a bit of lawn mowing and fertilise your lawn.

    I have been wondering about the hens and geese in permaculturists gardens and i have thought, thinking of how slowly things have grown in my garden and how quickly professional permaculturists gardens seem to grow, that may be the manure off all these animals really speeds things up. Maybe they are simply keeping a lot to themselves, not talking of how they manure it at first. They do talk of buying in or acquiring a lot of outside organic matter mulch at first something i have not done.
  In my garden i don't have the canals and berms to better the water infiltration so my garden is not like theirs and there is no knowing from my garden which of these things is most important for getting your garden producing at a great rate from day one.
      I thought that the same amount of vegetable matter lands up on the land pass through an animals digestive system or not so that it does not matter not having animals to eat your plants but maybe things are more complicated than that.

      paul stamets method of getting publicity is a good one, enough of his books is published in internet for you to learn a lot from it, to orient you really well  but if you want all of his information you have to buy them. Maybe it is better for sales, i have felt absolutely convinced of the usefullness of his books while i have wondered about the usefullness of books of people who give less nearly complete information. Other people cut too short on the freely available information.  agri rose macaskie.
 
Joel Hollingsworth
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rose macaskie wrote:
I have never known a scrubbed pan that does not then stick.
  How do you grow lufers? Do you live by the sea?
 


Enamelware is very nice, especially for eggs.  Unfortunately, the two most common types are cheap, stamped mild steel (reminiscent of the coffee kettle and cups in most cowboy movies), and super-luxurious cast iron with a Teflon coating that completely ruins the whole thing.  Old cast-iron enamelware is probably the best; perhaps similar pans are still being made for the European market.  I have one small, deep skillet of this design, and it gets about as much use as my large cast-iron one.

It doesn't pick up odors, can be scrubbed with steel wool, can be cleaned with heat like a cast iron pan, and doesn't use much oil.

Luffa is a cucurbit, grown like a melon or squash.  Young ones can be eaten, old ones dry out to leave a fibrous skeleton.  Processing photos I found just now:

http://justgourds.com/Gourd%20Info/luffaprocessing.htm
 
Jennifer Smith
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Rose, if I didn't make it clear, scrub with oil over a warn stove, not with soap and water.
 
                    
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Le Creuset makes cast iron skillets with a black enamel coating on the inside.  It looks like teflon, but it's not.  I own the 11 1/2" one and I use it everyday.  It's completely taken the place of my regular cast iron skillet.  Expensive, but they'll last pretty much forever.  A good mother and/or mother-in-law gift, also, for the older ladies in our lives who are STILL using the same deadly teflon and aluminum pots from their wedding showers.....  (so says I from experience this christmas)
 
rose macaskie
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jennifer smith thanks for i scrub with warm oil over a flame i had not understood you the first time.
  Paul Wheaton i think they sell expensive cast iron enamelled pans in expensive shops. Mind you i have not tried to find one for years. Normally good cooking shops go on selling old fashioned things.
In your local big town in the sort of shop you find wedding present, it is worth it, that sort of things seems to last for ever, though i broke a new one of my parents once throwing it on the floor. Really i dropped it on the floor by a mistake. rose
 
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