How close do nitrogen fixing plants need to be?

I am trying to get my Spring tree order together and thinking about ordering some Siberian Pea Shrubs to put near a couple of my apple trees. How far away should I plan to put them? I am sure the info is in Gaia's Garden, but I've scanned the book again and can't find it. Would I be better off with a N-fixing groundcover that can be planted directly under the tree? I was hoping for the Siberian Peas to feed to the chickens...

From what I've seen and read about... it depends.

Mostly it depends on:
- which nitrogen fixers you plan to use
- what you are trying to accomplish
- how you're planning to manage the overall system

Example:
If you are planning to plant a new siberian pea shrub under an apple tree, specifically to benefit that individual tree.
Then plant it in the same hole, or as close as possible to an existing tree.
Chop & drop the pea shrub when it starts getting too tall for you.
Using that method, the pea shrub should stay a small shrub, and continue to pump nitrogen into the soil.

Rule of thumb from the arborist literature is that tree roots extend 1.5 to 3 times the drip line, depending on soil texture... trees reach farther in sandy soil, perhaps due to the poverty of water and nutrients, but also ease of foraging. Also feeder root density tends to be highest around the drip line. I've heard others offer Matt's suggestion as well, planting a N fixer in the same hole, and just pruning it to allow the target tree to keep dominance for light. There is a goof G.Lawton video where he talks about a shifting dominance of soil builders to crop plants over the maturation period of a food forest (first 20 years), so at the beginning N-fixers are everywhere, annual, forb, shrub AND tree. Over time human intervention suppresses and recycles the soil builders in favor of the crop plants.

So I'd tend to plant both herbaceous and woody N-fixers to start a planting (locally I use cottonwood, willow, clovers, goumi, lupine, alder). I am still getting my head around processing and managing the quantity of wood that this can generate! This years brush piles become next years plantings. If you are water limited and not particularly nutrient limited, you may have to think through how you reduce competition for water (either by water harvesting, grey water, or timing your slashing to reduce summer leaf area in you n-crop).

EDIT - here's my Lawton groupie page with that video

the guys in the NW plant em in the tree hole. they have excellent results.

there is a discussion here somewhere....

I'm pretty sure in a mature system the answer would be 'it doesn't matter much'! I've heard that that soil fungi are extensive in an undisturbed soil, and can transfer nutrients many yards away from where the source is. Anyone else remember this, or am I making it up?

That's my recollection from "Mycelium Running How Mushrooms Can Help Save the World" by Paul Stametts!

"The mycelial network is a shared economy, where ecosystems flourish without greed. The mycelium underfoot ensures their close-by neighbors have the resources (nutrients, water, etc.) they need to flourish. But they also have formed ways to distribute nutrients across their entire network."

https://fantasticfungi.com/blogs/news/10-things-to-know-about-the-mycelial-network

I suppose this is a great opportunity to conduct an experiment yourself, and report back the results to us.  Why don't you try a variable distance planting and record your observations.  You could plant your pea plants at 1', 2', 4', and 8' spacing in different areas of your orchard, and measure the resulting nitrogen contents of the soil at periodic intervals.  A nitrogen percentage kit can be purchased at Home Depot.

Along with the effects of nitrogen concentration, you could also report on other effects, like the presence of wildlife, tree access to pruning, ect.

Keep in mind that nitrogen is NOT the only nutrient your trees need.  They also need Potassium, Phosphorus, and some other nutrients in smaller amounts.

Renee Stauffer wrote:I am trying to get my Spring tree order together and thinking about ordering some Siberian Pea Shrubs to put near a couple of my apple trees. How far away should I plan to put them? I am sure the info is in Gaia's Garden, but I've scanned the book again and can't find it. Would I be better off with a N-fixing groundcover that can be planted directly under the tree? I was hoping for the Siberian Peas to feed to the chickens...

i saw someone planted comfrey right up with the roots of a newly planted plum i will say and that stabilized the tree so he did not need to stake it.  also, if you are using biochar in the hole that helps to expand the networks of the N…..Fixinbacteria and fungi.

Nancy Reading wrote:I'm pretty sure in a mature system the answer would be 'it doesn't matter much'! I've heard that that soil fungi are extensive in an undisturbed soil, and can transfer nutrients many yards away from where the source is. Anyone else remember this, or am I making it up?

that’s true and I was hearing about that today in terms of biochar extending the reach of fungi, but this topic is about bacteria because we’re talking about nitrogen fixation.  fungi provide a broader reach within the soil community whereas nitrogen fixings bacteria are utilizing gaseous N as a resource

Trevor McDonald wrote:

Nancy Reading wrote:I'm pretty sure in a mature system the answer would be 'it doesn't matter much'! I've heard that that soil fungi are extensive in an undisturbed soil, and can transfer nutrients many yards away from where the source is. Anyone else remember this, or am I making it up?

that’s true and I was hearing about that today in terms of biochar extending the reach of fungi, but this topic is about bacteria because we’re talking about nitrogen fixation.  fungi provide a broader reach within the soil community whereas nitrogen fixings bacteria are utilizing gaseous N as a resource

Yeah, but nitrogen nodule bacteria two meters away fix the N2 and release it to the soil and then the mycelial (fungal) network transports it across the gap to the other plants with the deficit. They work together.