Mark Vander Meer on Soils

Mark gave a presentation last fall and handed a lot of stuff out. Today, he emailed me this stuff and gave me permission to post it here.

And here is the presentation:

more

Hi Paul.. These links to download the diagrams in the video are not working for me..
i'm using a mac, and tried to download from all of my browsers (Google Chrome, Safari, and Firefox)
hopefully you can get this resolved, as we would love to have access to these documents.
best of luck, and keep the great permies info comin!!!

Jared Williams wrote:Hi Paul.. These links to download the diagrams in the video are not working for me..
i'm using a mac, and tried to download from all of my browsers (Google Chrome, Safari, and Firefox)
hopefully you can get this resolved, as we would love to have access to these documents.
best of luck, and keep the great permies info comin!!!

Same here, didn't work.... Great video though!

Hello Paul,

I too am not able to download the handouts. Could the problem be the spaces in the file name when uploading or downloading the files? I tried to download by changing the spaces in the file name to % to try and download but that didn't work. I also tried the "%25" space substitution and "%2520" space substitution but neither worked.

Thanks for uploading the video!

Fascinating video, but it stops at 3:19, buffers and buffers and never comes back. I hope you can fix that.

Pamela Melcher wrote:Fascinating video, but it stops at 3:19, buffers and buffers and never comes back. I hope you can fix that.

I think this is an issue on your side. It works fine here.

The links do not work for me either.

We are looking into the issue. More to come.

I'm not sure if this is the place to ask questions about the video but I was wondering about the part where Mark mentions the dangers of terracing. I'm not sure I understood what he was saying but it sounded like he was warning that terracing can create a damming effect which could destroy the hydrology and collapse the terrace system through waterlogging. If this happens, what is the implication? Terracing is bad? Only certain types of terracing should be used? If so, what kind? Only certain slope grades should be terraced? If so, what grades? Only areas with a certain rainfall amount should be terraced? If so, what rainfall amount? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
If this is not the place to ask this question, could someone direct me to the correct forum? Thanks.

FYI, all, the problem with the attachments is fixed.

THANK YOU!
This is incredibly valuable information.
i appreciate you fixing the download links.

Was able to watch the whole thing.

FANTASTIC!

Such a simple, clear explanation of basic principles, practical and relatively easily implemented.

Enormously useful!!! Now that I get the process of how the soil is healed, I can better choose which specific technique to use where and when.

Now I understand what I have seen with my own eyes in how plants respond to various techniques I have used....conditions at the start, materials used, time frames, etc.

So I can go beyond rigid adherence to one system or another, know where to focus my efforts. I can proceed with more confidence and have more peace of mind as I patiently await the inevitable results.

I am doing an enormous amount of work on these issues, putting in a 1/4 acre Permaculture Food Forest in SE Portland, Oregon, and this makes such a huge difference.

LOVE IT!!! Thank you so very much to all involved. I can't thank you enough.

Richard Frame wrote:I'm not sure if this is the place to ask questions about the video but I was wondering about the part where Mark mentions the dangers of terracing.

This is the right place to ask the question about Mark's statement.

The way I understood it, he was saying that terraces that are not properly built are the problem.

Adrien Lapointe wrote:

Richard Frame wrote:I'm not sure if this is the place to ask questions about the video but I was wondering about the part where Mark mentions the dangers of terracing.

This is the right place to ask the question about Mark's statement.

The way I understood it, he was saying that terraces that are not properly built are the problem.

Thank you Adrien for the response. I would have been quite shocked if Mark was opposed to all terracing. I'm sure there must be many ways to build a terrace improperly. Would you have a guess as to what kind of improperly built terrace Mark might have been referring? That is, a terrace that might get waterlogged or interfere with the hydrologic cycle. I am interested because I plan to build many terraces on at least 50 acres and want to avoid building them improperly. Thanks.

I am really not an expert in that field. I think in Sepp Holzer's Permaculture, Sepp describes how to build them, but I don't have the book with me right now.

Adrien Lapointe wrote:I am really not an expert in that field. I think in Sepp Holzer's Permaculture, Sepp describes how to build them, but I don't have the book with me right now.

Thanks Adrien, I will look at that book again. Thanks for all the work you do.

No problem, the word HAS to get spread!

The links all worked for me. Thanks for fixing! Mac + chrome

Richard Frame wrote:

Adrien Lapointe wrote:

Richard Frame wrote:I'm not sure if this is the place to ask questions about the video but I was wondering about the part where Mark mentions the dangers of terracing.

This is the right place to ask the question about Mark's statement.

The way I understood it, he was saying that terraces that are not properly built are the problem.

Thank you Adrien for the response. I would have been quite shocked if Mark was opposed to all terracing. I'm sure there must be many ways to build a terrace improperly. Would you have a guess as to what kind of improperly built terrace Mark might have been referring? That is, a terrace that might get waterlogged or interfere with the hydrologic cycle. I am interested because I plan to build many terraces on at least 50 acres and want to avoid building them improperly. Thanks.

Richard,
I once took a course in soil conservation at university where we looked at soil practices such as terracing, gully restoration an, contour farming etc. It was a long time ago but this was the text book we used (I still have it), it contains some useful info on terracing, and loads of interesting stuff for permies into earthworks or dealing with steep land (unlike me):

http://www.amazon.com/Soil-Conservation-Norman-Hudson/dp/0813823722

I'll have a look around in my old notes and PM you if I find any useful stuff?

Greetings
Dave

David Buchan wrote:

Richard Frame wrote:

Adrien Lapointe wrote:

Richard Frame wrote:I'm not sure if this is the place to ask questions about the video but I was wondering about the part where Mark mentions the dangers of terracing.

This is the right place to ask the question about Mark's statement.

The way I understood it, he was saying that terraces that are not properly built are the problem.

Thank you Adrien for the response. I would have been quite shocked if Mark was opposed to all terracing. I'm sure there must be many ways to build a terrace improperly. Would you have a guess as to what kind of improperly built terrace Mark might have been referring? That is, a terrace that might get waterlogged or interfere with the hydrologic cycle. I am interested because I plan to build many terraces on at least 50 acres and want to avoid building them improperly. Thanks.

Richard,
I once took a course in soil conservation at university where we looked at soil practices such as terracing, gully restoration an, contour farming etc. It was a long time ago but this was the text book we used (I still have it), it contains some useful info on terracing, and loads of interesting stuff for permies into earthworks or dealing with steep land (unlike me):

http://www.amazon.com/Soil-Conservation-Norman-Hudson/dp/0813823722

I'll have a look around in my old notes and PM you if I find any useful stuff?

Greetings
Dave

Thank you Dave,

I followed your link and ordered the book! Amazon wanted $441.00 U.S. for it but I ordered it through a reseller for $14.95! Looks like a valuable reference book. Yes, please let me know if you find any more useful stuff. Thanks again.

Richard

Richard Frame wrote:

David Buchan wrote:
Richard,
I once took a course in soil conservation at university where we looked at soil practices such as terracing, gully restoration an, contour farming etc. It was a long time ago but this was the text book we used (I still have it), it contains some useful info on terracing, and loads of interesting stuff for permies into earthworks or dealing with steep land (unlike me):

http://www.amazon.com/Soil-Conservation-Norman-Hudson/dp/0813823722

I'll have a look around in my old notes and PM you if I find any useful stuff?

Greetings
Dave

Thank you Dave,

I followed your link and ordered the book! Amazon wanted $441.00 U.S. for it but I ordered it through a reseller for $14.95! Looks like a valuable reference book. Yes, please let me know if you find any more useful stuff. Thanks again.

Richard

Wow that was a fast decision to make! At least I'm glad you didn't go for the first price you saw, who pays that much for a book?!?
In the meantime, the only document on the computer I have left from that era is a powerpoint presentation on terracing, hereby attached. All the rest is paper notes and handouts, so not likely to be scanned in or uploaded any time soon! The presentation is a bit light in terms of content but maybe interesting all the same, bear in mind I was 20 and that at the time I could hardly fit it onto a floppy disc!

Curious to know where and what you're terracing with.

Sorry it won't let me attach a .ppt file, PM me your email if you're interested

Dave

I had another question about soil health, in particular in a suburban lawn setting. Mark mentions the importance of air in the soil, and even mentioned three different ways of achieving that. What about core aeration (where you end up with all those little lumps of dirt all over the place)? Is that effective, and is it good (or will it cause some other harm)?

Thanks!
---Brian

I guess the permie-people have been busy because Mark's video is one of the thumbnails on the front page of youtube tonight.

A late addition to the terracing issue.

I think Mark is not just critical of improperly built terraces. I think he's saying that whenever you take out a chunk on the side of a slope, and especially when you fortify the vertical part you've created, you are damming up water above, causing the soil there to be at risk of waterlogging and landslides. I'm sure there are ways to mitigate this problem, e.g. by creating opportunities for drainage, but it is a pretty fundamental isssue. If your slope is steep and your climate is wet, this is a significant risk.

Do you guys know what kind of stick he uses as a "penetrometer" to test soil compaction? He's starting to talk about it at Min 29:55.

I mean:

What material?

What diameter?

What does the tip look like?

Or to ask in a different way:
----> What do you guys use/suggest?

Currently I found in my scrap pile a stainless rod with approx. 8mm diameter (5/16). I did grind a semi-sharp tip on one end.
I might weld some kind of a handle onto it, so it will look like a "T".
Is this going in the right direction (see picture attached)?

I am especially wondering about diameter and material. I currently feel, that 8mm is somewhat thick compared to Marks stick, but am wondering if a thinner material will be to easy to bend - so mild (cheap) steel might not be an option...

Here they show different tools to perform such test and are talking about a standardized tip: https://youtu.be/GpDPwfABfRo. The "self build" penetrometer at Minute 3:43 (see picture attached) seems to be thicker than 8mm (5/16) from what I assume looking at it, and it seems that the tip is even wider in diameter...

The standardized tip seems to come from ASABE (American Society of Agricultural and Biological Engineers). I did try to find the information on their site. They did require registration, and then (if I read it correctly) require me to pay at least $255 to download this pdf. Side note: The $255 would buy me five downloads total. So I did not buy the pdf and am wondering what you guys know...
This is the link to the information from ASABE: https://elibrary.asabe.org/abstract.asp?aid=44232&t=2&redir=&redirType=

For the moderator:
Should this question go in a new topic? Is so: Feel free to move, or advise me. Thank you.

I recall Mark saying he uses the rod out of the bottom of a card-catalog drawer, like this:webpage