What problems do you experience with Livestock Guardian Dogs, and what solves them?

For the new dog owner, it might be helpful to have an overview of the challenges you can expect to face and some forethought on how to solve them.

Here's one that cropped up recently--he started climbing over the fence.  

The breeder said it's probably since some dog is in heat within a 3-mile radius, and his hormones are raging, so...

He's not neutered because we intend to breed him to sustain this somewhat rare breed and make a small-acreage-compatible dog available to more homesteaders.  And to recoup some of the expense too, I hope, though we may need to let go of all of that...

She said give him 3 weeks of being grounded, have him with you 24/7 and reestablish the bond. That meant walking a 120 lb dog...and he pulls.  He is not leash trained, because a) it's a ton of work to train him and b) why would I do that if I'm thinking he's almost never going to be on a leash?  So I sprained an ankle doing that, and it's a lot of time sink.  

Note--In our contact with the breeder we agree not to use any aversive methods, so we have to keep our word on that even if it would work.  (letting him reap the natural consequences of his actions is fine, but if that is getting shot by a hunter or hit by a car and injuring the driver too that isn't OK either).  I gather some breeders will ask for that agreement, I'm not sure how widespread this is.

The other solution we have come up with is getting him a friend...a dumber dog, who is more easily trained, and who we have no interest in ever breeding (so he can get neutered some day rather than hopping the fence along with Mule.).  We're trialing this other dog (fostering him, essentially), but of course that also cost a bunch of money since he had never been taken to a vet and needed antibiotics for Lyme disease.  He's a sweetiepie and we love him.  Also, we can lift him if we need to.  Whereas Mule (not his real name) is , well, at least 120 pounds of stubborn.  But the cost is a frustrating setback.  

It's working pretty well so far, but are we doing permaculture here?

Some would say that the best thing is to cull a dog who is ill, or let nature do that work.  Some would say the animal's wellfare is more important.

We could have made our fence a bit higher--but we never needed to until this happened.  

(This breed, Armenian Gampr, is bred to respect fences and 99% of the time he REALLY does.  It's like a vampire waiting to be invited in to your house, even a mesh lying on the ground that he could easily walk over he will respect.  He probably has gotten shocked by it in the past.  But climbing the fence, or tunneling under it, technically isn't the same as jumping a fence...)

I'm working on adding an electric line to the perimeter, which it would have needed anyway to make shifting the paddock more convenient, but meanwhile the new puppy is keeping him worn out enough to be more worn out.

Any other suggestions?

I'm hoping it's helpful to share this so you can be a little more prepared, and get your electric line up ahead of time or alternatively neuter.

My experience with dogs that climb fences is that is something that can't be unlearned.

One dog we just let go as she was a stray to begin with.

The other we built a shelter that was chain link fence to the ceiling so if she climbed there was still no way out.

Best wishes and let us know how you solved this.

I'm afraid the desire for a bitch in heat is a very strong natural urge. When our mastiff was in heat we had to keep her separate from out (entire) male labrador retriever to avoid an unwanted litter (They would have been so cute but..!) Della slept in the kitchen and Dyson in the study. Now Dyson isn't elderly, but he has never been the most agile dog, needing help climbing into the car for example. However he managed to scale a bookcase, and cluttered windowsill to climb out of the study window to try and get to Della (my thread about it here).
I have heard tales of people's front doors destroyed by wandering dogs in search of the interesting bitch within their house...Della is now neutered!

I suspect stronger fencing is a good first step, because you can't really expect the dog to withstand that attraction. It really does make them frantic.
As to walking on leads, I'm not qualified to give advice, because we so rarely do that too. Both our dogs although strong, are very affectionate and after the first excitement are happy to walk close with us. A handful of smelly treats also helps!
One thing that we do with Della even now, since we are rather nervous that she does stray (over, under, through the fence!) is that we attach her to an old tyre with a long chain. She is happy dragging this around most of the time, but would be unable to take it over the fence with her. Obviously we don't just leave her attached to the tyre in case she wraps herself round a tree, or otherwise gets stuck, so she is usually only out for short periods without supervision, and mostly with us and off her chain. Warning- if you do try this, the tyre dragging along the ground erases plants! We never need to trim the vegetation along the paths by the house now.

i agree, aside from supermax containment i don't think you're going to have many options til the heat is over. i've spent much time with my mother in law, who has only kept bitches and never spayed, and seen all sorts of craziness with dogs trying to get into her house. It's the most primal of urges.

Leash training, if he didn't get it immediately, is not going to be a quick fix.

My real concern is the assumption that there is a bitch he's going after: you don't know for sure. If it's a heat it will be done in a week, but maybe he's doing something else you don't know about, which will still be attractive in a week/month/always. Maybe he's just wandering for fun.

Getting a companion might help, but if he wants to wander he'll just leave the companion behind (and then there's the cost of two large dogs and their care).

If it were me**** I'd see if I could provoke the fence climbing and give him some serious natural consequence that would deter him from future escapes. See if you can provoke it and ambush him with a super soaker's worth of water to the face and lots of yelling, for example. figure out where he's climbing/digging and run a hot wire there.


**** Here i'm dealing with something similar. A guy around the block swears up and down my Malinois is scaling my 6ft fence, hanging out at his house, and then sneaking back home. My security cameras don't go back to when he said the last time was, and there's no way to be sure. I personally think he's full of crap, and I can't imagine the dog leaving the yard, family, or his companion dog, going on walkabout, and then jumping back inside the yard without anyone knowing it. Then again I've seen the dog go at least 7 feet on the training field (different circumstances, different wall/fence, different motivation), and the guy swears up and down it's true, and I don't know what to believe.
I'm adding another foot and a half of wire to the top of my fence tomorrow, like electric but not electrified- he won't be able to get over it, and it should solve that problem for good if/when he decides to try.

I am glad such breeders are out there and absolutely agree that hurting a dog for any reason, including discipline, is counterproductive and in my opinion, just wrong. From experience though, I do think it is important to have a way to physically control and calm a dog, and the larger and stronger they are the more important this is for their safety, yours, and others’. If they do not know who is alpha, they will assume it has to be them and this is more stressful and less safe for them.

So I use a technique from a book about raising Pyrenees that ties into their instincts and experience from puppyhood. If he is getting amorous with an unwilling partner, being overly protective of food or his cat toward other dogs, or whatever, I can get my 130lb Pyr-Akbash Willie on his back and submissive without hurting him. I grab his scruff just behind the ear (being careful not to hurt his ears), and turn him over on his back with just enough force as necessary. Two hands is easier and safer, but once you have them do it a few times they will generally just roll over without much force at all with just one hand. If he was doing something really dangerous that needs to be negatively reinforced I will bark “no! no jumps/humps/etc” in his face, but this has only been necessary a few times. I then hold him until he is calmed down and give him loving belly scratches for reverting to the good boy he is. I do have to be careful because his reach exceeds my own and he is stronger than me, but this technique cues their submissive instinct towards their mother. I only do this when I catch him in the middle of the unwanted act. If he is too far away and he stops and comes to me, he gets praise. He will now generally just stop what he is doing and roll over if I approach with a stern enough voice. He then gets belly scratches.

As for a climbing a fence, we have a 5’8” fence with the bottom 4ft woven cattle fence, and two wire lines 10” apart above that.  Walking the fenceline daily and peeing on it with him seems to help.

I spent about 20 years, maybe more, working dog rescue for various large and giant breed dogs. I eventually got a reputation for being able to "socialize" dog-aggressive and unsocialized dogs.

You have to know what motivates any particular dog to be able to get them to want to learn. Many dogs just want to be loved and to do their jobs - that's a real problem with people who get dogs that aren't suited for modern life or modern living situations. There's not much you can do for a dog that's being driven crazy by over or under-stimulation, or a LGD with nothing to guard.

It's an Important Safety Tip to teach all dogs to have certain manners so that they can be handled safely. Unless your vet does house calls, or you happen to be a vet, you'll probably have to bring your LGD into a vet's office at some point. Having your pup able to walk on lead, while not managing to choke itself or injure you (and the three people with other animals you walk past). You probably also want to be able to teach your dog to sit, lie down, and stay. Basic household manners.

Jumping fences happens with some breeds more than others and in some situations more than others. The Great Pyrenees local group wanted me to add another foot or two to the top of our fence for just that reason. There are other ways to keep a dog inside, some better and some more expensive than others, but they might all work to some degree.

I know there are dog trainers on this site who might have other or different views on how to manage large and opinionated canines. I do know that some basic obedience is usually suggested as small pups learn their lessons quickly and are easy to praise and pet.

If you have a determined fence jumper, is he using one particular area more than another? You can put a baffle there - a piece of PVC or pipe, strung on a wire so that it sits at the top of the fence, but spins when the dog puts his paws on it. If he can't get a stable point, the fence is harder to jump for most dogs. (Like all situations, it depends on the actions of the critters involved.)
Sure, a how wire is a deterrence. And a pretty good one. If the fence bites him every time he tries it, he'll stop trying after awhile.

You can also try deer fence - the fenceposts might be a bit much, but angling the fence inward makes it harder to jump up from the base, or extending it outward at the top makes landing a much more dangerous situation. Again, your situation will be different, but there are concerns with all fencing/barricade options.

I hope you find a solution that works for you and your dog, as well as hoping that everyone considering a n LGD does consider how they'd keep their pup at home, when it might want to go for a wander.
Trust me, I had the pleasure of sharing 16 years with a Siberian Husky who was only slowed a little by a fence if she wanted on the other side. We eventually figured out her tricks and temptations and were able to keep her safer, but it was a work in progress for several years.

Pro dog trainer here. I agree with the statements already made that:
1) if your guess about there being a nearby bitch in heat is incorrect, your problem will continue even after a couple weeks
1a) neutering usually decreases their sex drive immensely but is not a guarantee!
2) once a dog learns that they have the ability to jump or scale a fence (or dig under), it is often extremely difficult to train them not to - when they're out there unsupervised, they know that any training consequences from the owner are not in play
3) therefore the best solution is management - making a fence that the dog cannot get over/under/through. Making your fence higher is a very good solution, but beware making it "a bit" higher - you can end up training your dog to jump/climb higher and higher. You want to instead immediately raise it up enough that the dog is thoroughly convinced that he couldn't make it. The suggestion to make the fencing bend inward at the top is a good one. The PVC rollers (often called coyote rollers) can also work very well. And of course using electric strands will work well, if it's a strong enough current - dogs have been known to blow right through electric fences to chase prey, attack other animals, or get to bitches.

Getting your dog a buddy to play with will help if he was climbing out because of boredom or curiosity. If it was because of a bitch in heat, and the scent reaches him again, it probably will not help - though it might, if he's so happily tired out that climbing the fence just isn't worth it.

The one incident we had similar to this was within the property.  A younger Great Pyr female came into her first heat and the older un-fixed Sarplaninac male went bananas.  We didn't want puppies and had her spayed fairly quickly after finding the two of them tied.  But for a week or so after that, the male wanted access to her and keeping her inside the house even for short period resulted in damaged doors from the male scratching from the outside.  (Which sounds bad, but trivial in comparison to a 700 lb sow pig that wants at her 'stud muffin' who is enclosed in the bed of a Ford F150! :-P)  But for wandering, my wife finally just installed one of those perimeter fences around ~8 acres of the property that trigger a mild shock collar.  This is in addition to 4' high fencing with electric strands across the top.  For sure around here they likely would get shot if wandering and that's not a good outcome.  The biggest draw these days for them are deer (in summer,.... deer migrate elsewhere for winter) and coyotes/foxes/racoons.  Needless to say, they do indeed deter any predators from entering the property day or night....occasionally even charge out when seeing hawks and owls eyeing the chickens from above.