high protein diet: Vascular effects

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/36/15418.full.pdf+html

they do include the low carb info also.

Don't see any info on temp or work done tho..

Whew, good thing I'm not a mouse... and good thing most paleo folks I know don't eat processed, lab-mixed rations. That would probably kill humans, too.

Ya, I knew that the whole "humans aren't mice" argument would be used.
Paleo people are almost by default excellent at rationalizing their diet.
After all to continue doing it would be to deny all nutrition guidelines.


But ya, it's good research, thanks.
Yet another bullet in the anti-meat gun.

Haha, I love how these topics get people talking.

Just for the sake of discussion, I would point out that many proponents of paleo/primal/ancestral health/Weston A. Price diets do not really stress high protein, but rather high fat. Especially the Weston A. Price diet (which is very pro- pastured animal products) emphasizes that in traditional cultures, lean meat was often thrown to the dogs, while people would prize the fatty tissues and organ meats because of their extremely high nutrient density. Since the study in question compared diets with equal fat and cholesterol levels, it doesn't seem to address high fat/low carb diets at all.

It may be popular for casual paleo eaters to prize a lean steak, but many of the really devoted paleo folks are more into liver and other organ meats, fatty fish, pastured lard, etc. We eat our yolks with our egg whites and drink our cream, but give the skim milk to the pigs...just like people have been doing for thousand of years.

Oh high fat eh? well did a quick search on vascular effects of high fat.

bad for cardiovascular (heart arteries)
" The findings of the present study are consistent with the hypothesis that even a single high-fat meal may be associated with heightened cardiovascular reactivity to stress and offer insight into the pathways through which a high-fat diet may affect cardiovascular function. "
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/137/4/935.long

bad for neurovascular (brain)
"These results indicate that HFD negatively affects neurovascular coupling and cerebrovascular function even in the absence of dyslipidemia. These early cerebrovascular changes may be the cause of greater cerebral injury and poor outcomes of stroke"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23576615

I posted this article awhile back here on permies. Thought it may be of some interest in this thread. I've been following up on this very interesting research. Hope to have more information to post in the near future.

NYTimes Health section an article by Gina Kolaata

"Culprit in Heart Disease Goes Beyond Meat's Fat" http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/08/health/study-points-to-new-culprit-in-heart-disease.html?hp&_r=0

I know I will be accused of "rationalizing" again but heck, this is the paleo forum, right? I feel like I would be remiss if I did not point out a few things...

First, the "bad for cardiovascular" study analyzed people who had eaten a McDonald's breakfast as the source of their fat. The "food" they ate:

hash browns: potatoes, canola oil, hydrogenated soybean oil, safflower oil, natural flavour (vegetable source), salt,
dehydrated potato, vegetable monoglycerides, corn flour, dextrose, sodium acid pyrophosphate, extractives of
black pepper, citric acid, dimethylpolysiloxane and cooked in vegetable oil (Canola oil, corn oil, soybean oil,
hydrogenated soybean oil with THBQ, citric acid and dimethylpolysiloxane).

sausage McMuffin:
: Enriched bleached wheat flour, water, yeast, high fructose corn syrup, corn flour, salt, vegetable oil
(canola and/or soybean), cornmeal, calcium sulphate, calcium propionate, citric acid, diacetyl tartaric acid esters of
mono and diglycerides, artificial flavours, natural flavours (plant source), calcium silicate, enzymes AND MAY
CONTAIN ANY OR ALL OF THE FOLLOWING IN VARYING PROPORTIONS wheat gluten, leavening
(monocalcium phosphate, calcium sulfate, calcium carbonate), barley malt, ascorbic acid, potassium sorbate,
wheat starch, azodicarbonamide.
Cheese (Milk, modified milk ingredients, bacterial culture, salt, calcium chloride, microbial
enzyme, lipase), modified milk ingredients, water, sodium citrate and/or sodium phosphate, salt, potassium sorbate,
citric acid, soy lecithin, colour (annatto).
Sausage Patty (actually contains mostly food)
Canola oil, water, salt, hydrogenated cottonseed oil, soy lecithin, palm oil
monoglycerides, potassium sorbate, artificial flavour, calcium disodium EDTA, colour (plant source), citric acid,dovitamin A palmitate, vitamin D3.
Margarine

egg McMuffin:Canadian Bacon
: Egg (Canada Grade A Large). Cooked on a grill, lightly seasoned, with trans fat free cooking spray (Canola
oil, water, salt, hydrogenated cottonseed oil, soy lecithin, palm oil monoglycerides, potassium sorbate, artificial
flavour, calcium disodium EDTA, colour (plant source), citric acid, vitamin A palmitate, vitamin D3)
Plus all the other nasties listed above for the sausage McMuffin.

Not that the "low fat food" was any less processed. The point is, let's not pretend the study actually tested people who ate real food. Paleo folk wouldn't touch that meal with a ten foot pole. I think for the sake of this discussion, that study can be completely discounted.

I unfortunately could only read the abstract of the second study, but the HFD (high fat diet) fed to the rats was probably the same nasty, rancid seed-oil crud given to the mice in the study mentioned by the OP.

The New York Times article seems to prove the same point as the original high protein study, too, since the carnitine is an amino acid which would be found in the protein, not the fat, of the meat.

Yes, we all hope that research lines up with our own points of view. It is unfortunate, however, that thousands of dollars are spent by researchers who make sweeping generalizations to "prove that fat is bad" by feeding people McDonald's meals. Ridiculous.

Fortunately, the experimenting I have done for myself (and many other die-hard paleo converts would say the same) proves that I feel incredible when I eat coconut oil, pastured butter/cream, raw milk, and eggs, and crappy when I skip them. Maybe I will die at 85 instead of 87, but I have healed lifelong chronic disease, upped my energy level, toned my body, lost belly fat, cleared up my skin, and de-fogged my brain, so I am going to keep doing what's working, even if a poorly designed study tells me not to.

And last time I checked, aren't those "nutrition guidelines" created by the same government that subsidizes monoculture and hires Monsanto employees to head the FDA? No thanks.

Danya, Right on again!

Logan, the only bullet in the anti-meat gun is aimed at one's own head. Vegetarians usually have no clue on how the lack of healthy protein and fats has a huge effect on ones ability to think for one's self. Let alone survive in the wild.

Lets all agree to automatically discount studies done by, or for, the government or other huge corporations that profit off of ignorance.

Fortunately, the experimenting I have done for myself (and many other die-hard paleo converts would say the same) proves that I feel incredible when I eat coconut oil, pastured butter/cream, raw milk, and eggs, and crappy when I skip them.

Coconut oil has the most beneficial saturated fat lauric acid,
wheras the others have palmitic acid, similar to trans fatty acids aren't so good,
though eggs at least 2 eggs a day is advisable due to lecithin content, if not using alternatives i.e. sunflower lecithin.

Maybe I will die at 85 instead of 87, but I have healed lifelong chronic disease, upped my energy level, toned my body, lost belly fat, cleared up my skin, and de-fogged my brain, so I am going to keep doing what's working, even if a poorly designed study tells me not to.

Oh I'm sure if you've stopped eating the SAD diet you've improved your life, it's very easy to improve from a fast food diet.
That's not to say there is no way of improving further.

And last time I checked, aren't those "nutrition guidelines" created by the same government that subsidizes monoculture and hires Monsanto employees to head the FDA? No thanks.

"the government" isn't really a singular entity, nor is there only a single government that has nutrition guidelines.

If you check, the vast majority of guidelines around the world, promote having vegetables and fruits as the largest category, followed by grains, only then followed by meat&alternatives, dairy&alternatives and other.

Admitedly governments are influenced by lobbiest from the meat, dairy, and grains they subsidize, in terms of Non-government recomendations.

"The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine uses the Power Plate, which promotes a vegan diet and is divided into equal parts fruit, grains, legumes and vegetables." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nutrition_guides#Other_guides

Well that's an interesting paper that completely contradicts my own experiences. Years ago I made dietary choices where I increased my protein intake, wasn't afraid of healthy fats, and greatly lowered my carbohydrate intake to simple watery fibrous carbs and cut out all sugars and complex carbs that my body processed exactly like sugars. I guess nowadays it would fall under the auspices of the hip trendy meme of "paleo." After years of maintaining these dietary choices I visited my doctor to run the gambit of age related tests like cholesterol. My results were interestingly different from this study. Put simply, my bad cholesterol was very low and my good cholesterol was high, so high in fact I was told by my doctor that I was bad for business, to keep doing whatever I was doing, and that my good/bad cholesterol ratio would actually reverse plaque deposits if I had any. Hmmm, maybe those mice needed a treadmill. Just saying.

My understanding of the problems associated with the modern carb rich diets is caused largely by the chronic overload of the insulin response system, triggered by long term levels of high blood sugar.

Studies, due the expense, tend to concentrate on short term effects and time horizons - looking at the health of a large cohort over a long enough period of time would be phenomenally expensive. Ultimately comparing the 'health risks of a single fatty meal' in people already struggling with overloaded insulin systems is not going to be In anyway meaningful when you want to compare the long term effects of two very different diets.

My personal story - i've cut down on carbs and increased the proportion of 'good fats' in my diet. I've lost around 8kg, no longer feel hungry between meals and feel generally healthier. My appetite has shifted, so that I am satisfied by smaller portions of protein rich meals - if you pile potatoes on the side of the same plate the balance goes out the window.

Well, I'm glad we can all at least agree on coconut oil and eggs.

Oh I'm sure if you've stopped eating the SAD diet you've improved your life, it's very easy to improve from a fast food diet.
That's not to say there is no way of improving further.

I guess I should have been more clear: I did not go from a SAD diet to a traditional/WAPF/paleo diet. I went from a "real food/whole foods" diet rich in carbs/whole grains and low in fats to one where good fats are the cornerstone of a steady, healthy metabolism! Switching to real foods from SAD is wonderful, but I didn't see all the health benefits I mentioned until I switched to high-fat/low-ish carb. And I feel cruddy when I eat lots of beans and too much fruit without fat, even though those are "whole foods."

Admitedly governments are influenced by lobbiest from the meat, dairy, and grains they subsidize, in terms of Non-government recomendations.

Yes. Yes they are.

The myth about how saturated fats are bad for you has been thoroughly disproved. Also, any study that claims meat or protein is bad for you most certainly used factory farmed meats and probably included protein from legumes. Show me a study that proves grass-fed meat is bad for you and I'll give you the Golden Gate Bridge for free. Dave Asprey from the Bulletproof Executive website has ALL the resources and legitimate scientific studies that prove how healthy a paleo diet is.

I lived most of my life eating a vegetarian diet. It wasn't a bad diet either, most of what I ate was from scratch and I made such to do things like combine for proteins and eat lots of leafy greens.

Then a couple of years I dropped the grains and legumes and "wet paleo". My health is so much better. I now eat meat a couple of times a day and eggs for breakfast. I eat larger portions of meat than I used to, but I do also eat offal and make bone broths. I also eat a lot more veg than I used. For example I often used to have sandwiches for lunch. Now I'm more likely to have meat and veg, or a salad with meat or fish. Now there's no pasta or such on my plate there's more space for vegetables.

I have had blood tests done regularly over the last couple of years, but they have more been more affected by my medication (a medical condition I was born with rather than something that has developed) in that time than anything else.

In the end we all need to do what we feel is right. A vegetarian diet was not right for me. I am now have improved digestion, an immune system which fights most it encounters quickly and easily, and I generally feel better. I would urge people to at least give a diet without grains and legumes a chance for a month.

Dayna Williams wrote:Whew, good thing I'm not a mouse... and good thing most paleo folks I know don't eat processed, lab-mixed rations. That would probably kill humans, too.

LOL good one buddy

OK so it says the mice were fed standard "chow" with milk fat Now I assume that means it has whey and soy protein. So basically standard "chow" with milk fat +?=LCHP or bullshit. (WTF. that don't apply to my diet at all). Assuming that grains where also in the "chow" the study seems to have nothing to do with a Peleo diet. Furthermore there were probably chitenases in the chow and high quantities of other anti-nutritional molecules. How much omega 3 and 6 was there? was there any kale or squash in there.

In my opinion these educated people should be ashamed at their unscientific data rendering

the government" isn't really a singular entity, nor is there only a single government that has nutrition guidelines . . . Admittedly governments are influenced by lobbyists from the meat, dairy, and grains they subsidize, in terms of Non-government recommendations.

I don't believe anyone said "the government is a single entity", or that "there is only a single government with nutritional guidelines". Every US government department or agency I'm aware of that does testing are guilty of flawed procedures and inaccurate results. Probably one of the worst factors are the corporate lobbyists; and I'm not aware of a single government in the developed world that is not subject to this corrupting influence. So - I for one - will not accept ANYTHING stamped by, approved by, or recommended by the USDA, FDA, EPA or the E.T.C. I could cite dozens of anecdotal examples why I'm so jaded, but I suspect - with this Permies group - it isn't necessary. All that IS necessary is that we all start thinking independently ... rationally. Far too many Americans just simply want to believe everything our government says ... everything the AMA says ... everything the media says. Have you never caught your government in a lie or even just a mistake? How many lies or mistakes do you suppose have gone undetected - at least by you?

Once a lie (or a mistake) has been perpetrated for a sufficient length of time - the perpetrators (usually the government, sometimes institutions or industries like the AMA, the Am Dental Assn, Big Pharma, the Asbestos industry, etc. etc.) cannot come clean. The liabilities are too high. Like fluoride in our drinking water (a boneheaded decision that they can never reverse). Like mercury in our fillings. Or the sanctioning of GMO's, refusal of fair labeling, or just the ability for a private organization to patent a living organism. It's similar to Congress' inability to repeal laws; no matter how bad they are, they stay on the books forever, with only very minor modifications. In a way, this propensity for avoiding liabilities makes sense: if the error was admitted and atonement required - who pays? Our already broke government and the NEXT generation of taxpayers?

... If you check, the vast majority of guidelines around the world, promote having vegetables and fruits as the largest category, followed by grains, only then followed by meat&alternatives, dairy&alternatives and other.

True. But why? The vast majority of the people on Earth cannot afford meat. In our modern agriculture - the amount of money, time, land, petroleum and carbon footprint required to feed a population MEAT is 10 to 20 times greater than it is to feed them vegetables and grains. And that figure is based on the meat manufacturing system in the USA - AFTER ALL OF THE GOVERNMENT SUBSIDIES are factored in. The expense of including meat in our diets WITHOUT subsidies would be even greater than a 10-20 factor. The average American could NOT afford to eat meat on a regular basis if it were not for the feed-lots and meat-factories funded by those subsidies. Now - if that's true for us privileged Americans - imagine how true it must be for the billions living in underdeveloped, underfunded countries?

So what's a government to do? Tell their masses
"If you want to be healthy - you must include large amounts of meat and animal fats in your diet? And not that cheap meat that McD sells - it must be the very expensive grass-feed, antibiotic and hormone free meat. BUT - there's not nearly enough of it for YOU - so, sorry."

Or - do they publish the official nutritional guidelines that the government and the people can actual obtain and afford? I think the later. Very often - it makes perfectly good sense WHY our government lies to us. But that doesn't change the fact that it's a LIE.

Feel free to move this, as it may need its own thread, but this thread crystallized a few things that have been swimming around my head for a while... And please forgive the flights of thought; it's 2300 on a downer of a night at work.

n.b., I work in healthcare, the last decade at a University teaching hospital. I've done Atkins and now Paleo (even with non grass fed meat) and always lose weight and have improved cholesterol, etc numbers. When I get sloppy about eating and go from meat and veg to bread, my pants get tight again. Anecdote is not evidence of course, but those two facts suggest the philosophical questions to follow.

First, one objection is that high fat shortens your life. Every year here at our annual hospital wide rah-rah, we hear about out "mortality numbers". But no one has yet proven to me that mortality is necessarily a bad thing. To paraphrase Denis Leary (on smoking):

Well it's the ten worst years, isn't it folks? It's the ones at the end! It's the wheelchair, kidney dialysis, adult diaper f--king years. You can have those years! We don't want 'em, alright?

I have started a bit of black humor that the marketing department has yet to adopt: "More patients who come here, live... (They do it in a nursing home with a tracheostomy and a feeding tube and diminished mental capacity, but hey, that's a save!)

The Dartmouth study http://www.dartmouthatlas.org/downloads/reports/Cancer_brief_090413.pdf showed that 25% of folks with advanced stage cancers are dying with escalating, "go full tilt boogie" care. The Fenton study out of UC Davis http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22331982 suggests that in the push to make people "happy" (poor customer satisfaction being a metric Medicare will use to cut your reimbursements), healthcare spends more money and provides worse outcomes.

We're permies, who care for people and the planet, and when I look at the system and consider it as resources in/ resources out, and energy in/ energy out, I don't see that we can justify spending a trillion dollars a year (federal only, ~30% of which is borrowed money from our great grandchildrens' salaries. Similar numbers on private sector insurance.) and countless tons of waste, from plastic IV fluid wrappers and syringe boxes (and the fuel that ships them from the single use tray factories in Pakistan and Mexico), to the detergent for washing the sheets to keep granny going another day?

Before the anecdotes of spry grannies begin, I know them, I see them, and I don't advocate Logan's Run. But "Live well, fall over dead" sounds like the best possible, and frankly the most permie way to live.

Second, there is a lot of talk on the ethics of meat. Natural free range/ grass fed/ "let the pig express its pigness" is the goal. As such feedlots are decried. Instinctively, they repel me as well. But considering what I've detailed above, is a feedlot any worse? Might not a cow, if capable of a rational argument, be told, "We will keep you in this small cage and milk you every day. After a couple of years you will be painlessly put down and recycled into food. In return, you will have three square meals a day, a warm place protected from predators, quality veterinary care, and a prolific number of offspring from high quality males." I suspect a certain number of cows would sign themselves up, because we see rational humans signing themselves up for all manner of slavery, both "stuck in a nursing home drooling on myself" ("He'll come back. Grandpa's a fighter!") to soul crushing jobs, and the forced extractions by the government.

As such, enjoying a good steak may be the better way, even if it does mean you die early of a heart attack. Just plant me in the orchard and recycle me into apples.

. . . I for one - will not accept ANYTHING stamped by, approved by, or recommended by the USDA, FDA, EPA or the E.T.C. I could cite dozens of anecdotal examples why I'm so jaded ... here's a recent one:

A "normal" mangosteen powder will typically show only 0.12 to 0.17 ppm of lead. But this USDA certified organic mangosteen powder contains nearly 100 times the typical levels of lead (and is obviously contaminated). This also tells you that in some cases, "organic" means nothing at all. - - Mike Adams, Natural News

http://www.naturalnews.com/044540_mangosteen_powder_heavy_metals_lead_contamination.html