One approach or many? What format? How to learn from groups’ fizzling?

One Permaculture artisan or many?  Plan or do? Collaborate or be the Lone wolf?

Some rambling thoughts on a subject that’s got a lot of energy for me. Forgive the phonetic spelling, as I dictated this, and the lack of coherence of some of it.

I find myself putting far too much mental energy into tiny decisions, like whether to bring the compost bucket in now from the sun or do it on my next trip, and procrastinating, attempting to crack open the big black book or do a whole new design for my land. Find myself thinking that people who just plant trees in different places and do things intuitively are really missing the boat, people who try to plan every detail and never put up in the ground or out to lunch. No, this is not about anyone else, but my inner critic talking about me, The point being that I find myself in the mirror of the other. I get oriented in relationship and finding relationship. Permaculture is a hard thing to do, at least it has been up till now.

Witness the lonePermaculturist, growing weird plants and ranting to anyone who will listen, which is hardly anyone we’re getting burnt out, unhealthy and having to put their land up for sale to someone who’s going to tear it down and build a man. Surely that there’s got to be a better leverage point for this person to use then brute force.

It would be better in Community, I can try one approach, you can try another, and now we have diversified our approaches. If one crashes and burns, but the other one thrives, that’s not bad. I’ll feel embolden to take bigger risks, as will you, and we can trade surplus of vegetables we’ve gotten sick of.

So now we’re fisted with the new question, what format should we use for our gathering? What will keep it together, instead of having it fizzle out  is so many things have before.? Should we use soy, is there someway that Permaculture principles can get applied to interpersonal relationship? I have this awesome tool that sends me over the moon, but the only people I’ve gotten to do it with me are more seeker types, not people with actual gardens.  You say let’s mastermind, and that’s sounding OK to me, but it is a tool that business people have used, not something specifically tailored to the ever-changing situation that a Permaculturist faces.  

And what’s under my need to connect, alongside the sense of wanting to have more different baskets to put different eggs in collectively, is a frequent sense of loneliness. Or just boredom. Shoveling dirt onto a Hugel culture bed was only entertaining for the first 15 minutes, And many podcasts later I’m actually really craving some actual human interaction.

So here’s my actual new realization, which all of the above was simply a lead-in to.  I don’t need just one perfect format or one perfect group of people, that’s gonna work for all time.  We could try either format, people will either show up or it’ll fizzle before the second meeting.  Either way, something will be learned, it’s not gonna be the end of the world, and we could try either end of the spectrum, really well planned on the one hand were flying by the seat of our pants on the other.  There’s also room for both, maybe I’ll do chores and chat over the phone with someone in the afternoons, and then have a really focused gathering of a group once a month.

I don’t have to find the one Perfect Permaculture artisan, there’s a balance point, using some percentage of one school of thought, and taking a little from others, there’s a balance point between planning and flying.  And there’s a balance point for different formats of collaboration gatherings.

Underlying the whole thing is my fear that they’re just won’t be enough. There won’t be enough time to have plants come to fruit before someone comes to bulldoze my garden. There won’t be enough time before people decide that I’m hard to love, and quietly exit or go to the group, or realize that they’ve got to go to their sisters, baby shower that day, or alphabetize their inbox.  I’m being a little snarky, but human beings will human.  That’s how it can feel to me sometimes, that I’m really swimming upstream, that America just shits on communal efforts constantly.

The other thing that I realizing that we’re in a different time now, and a format for gathering that really flubbed and fizzled five years ago might have reached its time now. Maybe today there’s enough momentum and appetite, and people are ready for it. maybe people are even hungry for , kind of gathering that they weren’t gonna do before, and maybe even willing to be more flexible with the rough edges, with people getting triggered or being loudmouths, with our hunger to be heard finally, with our tendency to get overexcited or suddenly deflated.

We Permaculturists are a lot.   I really like the idea that America is more ready for Permaculture to thrive then it was five years ago or even just one.  looking at things that way takes away a lot of fear and sense of scarcity.

Its good that you are feeling optimistic about the idea that maybe people are ready for things they weren't ready for in 2019, I think you're definitely right.

Lot's of interesting thoughts. I completely agree about community, it gives you purpose and, at least for me, turns a monotonous task like hugelkultur beds into something so much more when you can imagine the faces of the people eating their fruit. It does seem like there is a changing tide with more people being willing to step out of their comfortable lives and try the hard things like permaculture. Have you looked much into anthropology? There are many examples of groups of people living and working together in flexible arrangements that aren't driven by dogma. Curious to hear more thoughts on how that could look? I'm a big fan  of making ambitious but realistic plans and then executing them (as best as possible).

What caught my attention about the ramblings is the title.

What is groups fizzling?

I asked google who led me to believe that it means the end.  As in everything just fizzled out ....

Hi Joshua.
I'm not sure if this will help you but these threads are about prioritising your work:
the importance of doing something
dealing with permaculture overwhelm
how to prioritise garden tasks

About working with other people: I'm sure we have lots of threads there too, but I think that defining your goals may be a good start. As soon as other people become involved things get more complicated, but many hands and minds can achieve seeming miracles too.

I tend to be more of a loner than not. I have come to terms with seeing my efforts as fun.   Frankly, I would not be homesteading if it wasn’t.  I avoid over thinking.  Sometimes that does lead to wasted time and/or money.   I find that as a fair trade off for the fun I am having.

Hi, Joshua.
I'd say that another approach to all this is... seeking happiness.

Just doing something and asking yourself: is this making me happy? Can I do this for long? Maybe you never get tired of feeding your animals, maybe you like the smell of fresh watered plants in the morning, maybe you enjoy helping friedns weekly.

Mind you, happiness is not joy. Joy is the rejoice of gaining or winning something. Happiness is the feeling of being doing the right things you are meant to do, not the things you think you have to do. Maybe you think you 'must have' a forest garden, but if by working on it you don't get afterwards the sense of happiness it is probably because you are not meant to do that. In this sense, it is as if happiness is the moral guidance of our place in the system of all things.

When you find you path to happiness, suddenly the stars align themselves, you flow with them, the obstacles erase by themselves or with little effort. Doubts come and go. When you don't know if you are in the right path, look into yourself, try more things, see how you are feeling and be honest with yourself. Also, we are not on the same path for the whole life, so we need to be prepared to change.

The universe is so big that we all have the option to be happy and still the 'systems' will keep running. We don't need to feel forced to do things. We all need food and stuff and friends, and someone must care for them, but it doesn't have to be 'us' (though it could be us). We all live in communities, we do not need intentional settlements (but you live in one if that makes you happy). The communities where most of us live are based on greed and capitalism, but we can change that, grain by grain, as long as we understand that nothing is perfect, and where there is evolution there can be adaptation.

Let diversity happen, let everyone find its place. Nothing is done in vain.


Maybe I've poured too many ideas into very few lines, and it comes as obscure. I apologize if that's the case.

I'd suggest considering this from a permaculture perspective as well- groups grow, mature, sicken, weaken, and eventually die, a life cycle. Very few groups are giant sequoias or groves of bamboo that live for ages. I used to run a few groups: social, professional, identity-based, and only one lived through the pandemic. I'd venture it's not just the US either.
Life is busy happening for the people around us, and everyone has to choose their priorities and balance them against their goals, challenges, and fears. I try not to take it personally and do what I can, trying to notice life cycles and potential improvements.

I think that aloneness can sometimes be helpful. I know that for me, doing permaculture by myself is not easy, but in this difficulty and often failure there are many benefits to be found. One of those benefits is that I learn how to garden in the most labor- and resource-efficient ways possible. And it teaches patience, as well. I can only do a fraction of what I want to do each year, but if I spend enough years on the effort, then eventually it will happen.

But my preference is somewhere in between. Rather than try to create or join a permaculture community with a specified boundary, maybe "permaculture net" is a way to describe my approach: getting to know other permaculture and permaculture-adjacent people around and sharing seeds, vegetables, tools, hand power, social and emotional support and other resources, and working within / strengthening already existing communities, many of which are likely hundreds of years old. So rather than trying to become separate, becoming diversely integrated with other permaculture and non-permaculture people.