permaculture with unusual animals?

permaculture systems bison, camels, and deer in permculture systems heck maybe even mooses. i was wonder if anyone had any picture of any information of someone pulling this off? ive seen free ranging bison in a graze system but they are normally mow'd after.. but ive never seen a camel in the system-- video or picture or right up something. for that matter id love to see a system with gators, frog(harvesting). lol i know this is prolly weird but id love to have a system with more native American animals in the system (yes i know cows, sheep, pigs, chicken, are great) but i wonder if you could fold more into the system when thinking a little out of the box i know bison and deer would need pretty high fencing but if it was a living fence would they go for it? example prickly pear fence.. mind you the camel would just eat it lol.

There are bison ranches....enough so that you can find ground bison meat in a lot of grocery stores now. But they are a wild animal and one would need a lot more infrastructure to keep them than, say, cattle. So you couldn't just take the average cow operation and replace them with bison without a whole lot of other stuff and a steep learning curve. They will panic much quicker and stampede. A friend of mine once saw a bison tuck it's head up against the side of a full-size pickup truck and flip it clear over, upside down!! It seems to me you'd have to leave such ranching to big players, or perhaps sizeable communities. Some of the Native reservations in bison country are starting to do it, and marketing bison jerky, etc. Good for them!

Alder Burns wrote:There are bison ranches....enough so that you can find ground bison meat in a lot of grocery stores now. But they are a wild animal and one would need a lot more infrastructure to keep them than, say, cattle. So you couldn't just take the average cow operation and replace them with bison without a whole lot of other stuff and a steep learning curve. They will panic much quicker and stampede. A friend of mine once saw a bison tuck it's head up against the side of a full-size pickup truck and flip it clear over, upside down!! It seems to me you'd have to leave such ranching to big players, or perhaps sizeable communities. Some of the Native reservations in bison country are starting to do it, and marketing bison jerky, etc. Good for them!

yeah i heard people saying bison are dangerous and elk, deer, around the season. id hate to run the whole 500 or something crazy but a nice small heard of something off beat might be cool then again.. i should turn off my cow dislike cos your right they are easier to move without to much hurt but even good cows go bad

Rather than camels, why not try alpacas or llamas? Both are much easier to acquire than camels, which I do not think would be well suited to smaller farms. I also think that apex predators such as alligators (or wolves or big cats) should be avoided. If kept in large numbers, what they would consume would be far more than what they could return to the system. But frogs could be done very easily! A quick Google search turned up this article about Backyard Frog Raising.

Tom OHern wrote:Rather than camels, why not try alpacas or llamas? Both are much easier to acquire than camels, which I do not think would be well suited to smaller farms. I also think that apex predators such as alligators (or wolves or big cats) should be avoided. If kept in large numbers, what they would consume would be far more than what they could return to the system. But frogs could be done very easily! A quick Google search turned up this article about Backyard Frog Raising.

i said camels simply cos they are a 3.. meat, milk, fiber were as alpacas and llamas ?? im not sure if they milk well?

Caribou would be interesting., and theres a strong tradition of domestication the with other sorts of deer.

Logan Simmering wrote:Caribou would be interesting., and theres a strong tradition of domestication the with other sorts of deer.

caribou are almost domesticated in certain areas of the world

It's a great idea, thinking of incorporating less commonly farmed or kept species into a permaculture system.

Deer - in most (all?) areas of the USA, keeping most (any?) species of deer requires a significant investment i
n perimeter fencing, usually 8' high, and government permits.

Camels - could be a great choice for arid climates! Dromedary for hot & dry areas; bactrain camels for cold, dry
regions. As you say, there is a history of people keeping camels for milk and fiber, as well as riding and draft.
(Goats are also great in arid climates, either hot or dry.)

Alpacas & llamas - We raise these American camelids, mostly alpacas and a few llamas. (From the Andean region
of South America, it is interesting to note that the forerunner of these species originated in North America.) They
are raised throughout the US, but we would probably not raise them in the Gulf states, (we'd probably have Piney
Woods breeds, or breeds from Africa and/or India, or water buffalo or something like that if we were in that area) BUT
alpacas & llamas are pretty adaptable! With shade trees, breezes, and/or cool air moving up and down ridges
or hollows, they will do well further south than if they are just out in a bare field (but that's not permaculture, is it?!).

With shelter from the rain and wind, it is almost never too cold for alpacas, especially those with a good, dense coat
of fiber. Ours often sleep outside in the snow, in New England winters. They rarely spend time inside the shelters
(3 sided run-in sheds) unless there is a heavy cold rain, or rain and wind.

It's a touch subject for a lot of Americans... but alpacas & llamas taste great, but like deer and goats, they do not
marble fat throughout the meat, so they need to be cooked with that in mind.

The fiber varies a lot from one alpaca to another; some individuals & bloodlines produce 5+ pounds of fiber soft
enough to wear comfortably against the skin; others produce much less fiber, some more suited for outerwear,
or even carpets. Before the Spanish arrived, apparently there were different breeds of alpaca, with fiber suited
for different purposes, like breeds of sheep. Now we are in the process of recovering the genetic potential of the
alpaca, selecting for predictable fiber characteristics with a focus on super-fine and medium fine grades.

Llama fiber is even more variable (they were bred more for packing), and many are 'double coated', with a soft,
fine undercoat, and an overcoat of carpet or even rope grade fiber.

Some alpacas & llamas do produce an abundance of milk, but except when harvesting extra colostrum to freeze
'just in case', or to relieve the pressure of too much milk on a tender udder, etc we have never tried milking them.
The teats are short, like a mare's (another species that has been milked for human use), but they are easy
enough to milk with two fingers working against the thumb. I don't see why they could not be developed for milking.

Caribou - another great idea! Every winter we think of adding them to our farm, and...

...Yaks! Another domestic animal well suited for cold climates. And they can be crossed with Bos taurus (regular
domestic cattle). First cross males, (yak X cattle) are sterile from what I've heard, but the females will reproduce,
and can be crossed back either to a yak or a 'regular' bull.

Ah, the possabilites...!

While not as unusual as alligators or caribou... geese are a species that all too often gets overlooked.
At least in the USA. The fact that geese were very popular before industrial farming, when most people
produced most of their own food, and much of their other needs, speaks to the value of these birds.

They make good use of pasture, and can get essentially all their food from pasture in the growing season.
Geese are easy to herd, and have adapted well to portable electric netting. Their manure quickly disolves
into the grass especially after a rain. (Yes, they can be very messy if kept penned in the same place, but
that's not a permaculture technique, is it?) A kiddie pool or any shallow portable watertight container can
provide then the water they crave to bathe in.

Egg production can be increased by taking all but a couple of 'nest eggs', but they are also good setters and
great parents. Our traditional Toulouse and American Buffs begin laying as early as Feb 1st - even in
northern New England! We make them wait to set until the grass will be up when the goslings hatch, so we
eat LOTS of egg dishes in late winter; each egg from these breeds equals three+ average chicken eggs.
The whites are firmer than chicken eggs, but otherwise, they look and taste the same (just BIGGER).

Chinese geese look almost like minature swans, and reportedly lay the most eggs, but they are
much smaller than the European breeds.

Geese yield quite a bit of down, but that does make preparing the birds for the table take a bit
longer than plucking a chicken. Their feathers repel water (!) so scalding in hot water is not really
effective.

That said, a well cooked goose is delicious! And a time-honored tradition on the holiday table.

For those concerned about temperament or noise, try American Buffs. Ours are the gentlest, and the
quietest geese we have ever kept or been around. (African and Chinese are the most vocal, and the
loudest, making them great 'watchgeese', though no one, human or predator, arrives on our farm
w/out all our geese sounding an alarm).

For us, the only downside is that we tend to get very attached to our geese... much more so than cattle,
pigs/hogs, freezer lambs, whether goats, or most anything else we raise for the table.

BTW, most native American animals are protected by law, and keeping them requires government
permission, permits, inspection of facilities, etc. These days, the same is true of many non-native
animals, too, unless they are already considered to be a 'domestic' animal by the USDA.

Nevertheless, thinking beyond the usual farm residents is what we permaculturists should be doing,
eh?!

Lm McWilliams wrote:It's a great idea, thinking of incorporating less commonly farmed or kept species into a permaculture system.

Deer - in most (all?) areas of the USA, keeping most (any?) species of deer requires a significant investment i
n perimeter fencing, usually 8' high, and government permits.

Camels - could be a great choice for arid climates! Dromedary for hot & dry areas; bactrain camels for cold, dry
regions. As you say, there is a history of people keeping camels for milk and fiber, as well as riding and draft.
(Goats are also great in arid climates, either hot or dry.)

Alpacas & llamas - We raise these American camelids, mostly alpacas and a few llamas. (From the Andean region
of South America, it is interesting to note that the forerunner of these species originated in North America.) They
are raised throughout the US, but we would probably not raise them in the Gulf states, (we'd probably have Piney
Woods breeds, or breeds from Africa and/or India, or water buffalo or something like that if we were in that area) BUT
alpacas & llamas are pretty adaptable! With shade trees, breezes, and/or cool air moving up and down ridges
or hollows, they will do well further south than if they are just out in a bare field (but that's not permaculture, is it?!).

With shelter from the rain and wind, it is almost never too cold for alpacas, especially those with a good, dense coat
of fiber. Ours often sleep outside in the snow, in New England winters. They rarely spend time inside the shelters
(3 sided run-in sheds) unless there is a heavy cold rain, or rain and wind.

It's a touch subject for a lot of Americans... but alpacas & llamas taste great, but like deer and goats, they do not
marble fat throughout the meat, so they need to be cooked with that in mind.

The fiber varies a lot from one alpaca to another; some individuals & bloodlines produce 5+ pounds of fiber soft
enough to wear comfortably against the skin; others produce much less fiber, some more suited for outerwear,
or even carpets. Before the Spanish arrived, apparently there were different breeds of alpaca, with fiber suited
for different purposes, like breeds of sheep. Now we are in the process of recovering the genetic potential of the
alpaca, selecting for predictable fiber characteristics with a focus on super-fine and medium fine grades.

Llama fiber is even more variable (they were bred more for packing), and many are 'double coated', with a soft,
fine undercoat, and an overcoat of carpet or even rope grade fiber.

Some alpacas & llamas do produce an abundance of milk, but except when harvesting extra colostrum to freeze
'just in case', or to relieve the pressure of too much milk on a tender udder, etc we have never tried milking them.
The teats are short, like a mare's (another species that has been milked for human use), but they are easy
enough to milk with two fingers working against the thumb. I don't see why they could not be developed for milking.

Caribou - another great idea! Every winter we think of adding them to our farm, and...

...Yaks! Another domestic animal well suited for cold climates. And they can be crossed with Bos taurus (regular
domestic cattle). First cross males, (yak X cattle) are sterile from what I've heard, but the females will reproduce,
and can be crossed back either to a yak or a 'regular' bull.

Ah, the possabilites...!

I think you could get away with deer if you went to the investment of keeping them in the New Zealand style.. which prolly wouldnt go over well by the law. but if you could fence in say 50 acres in a round simple fence then use normal fencing such as "tree cover mix in with brambles" in a sorta shape that allows bottle necking.. i think you could do it if your goal was to move the deer along im told deer like to eat flowers so if you followed the deer with chickens or geese or ducks or something i think it could prolly work out.. ducks, geese or turkeys because they eat graze really well. Also i was reading a report about moving animals using sound. not just dogs but keeping animals in a tight herd by introducing a sound that isnt in nature. that they hate.. not anything that will cause ear damage or anything just annoying as hell. before that sounds plays play a sound not annoying. until the herd learns to move away from the sound "natural" without having to play the annoying sound.. it's a bit like what a wolf will do for large herds move them out of area without them eating the food down to nothing. setting a speaker up and turning volume up and down .. will move them through the paddock

Thanks for the inspiration! I just looked into raising reindeer, and learned that it is done as far south as Mississippi. I'm guessing as a meat and draft animal, there isn't much reason to breed a more manageable size. I better get my chickens started right first, but maybe someday.

We raise lab grade bullfrogs to supply the medical research market. We prevent more than 10,000 wild frogs a year from being used as research animals. We have a "sustainable" low input business but it's not permaculture.
There are lots of endemic terrestrial/aquatic animal/plant species waiting for you to figure out your culture methods, develop your market, and have your enjoyable and profitable farm business.
Just a few.
Ladybugs, praying mantis, edible snails, artemia, planaria, toads, grouse, cottontail rabbits, butterflys, leeches, white doves, soldier flies, leopard frogs, deer mice, dragonflys, hellbenders, sirens, silk worms, pack rats, dung beetles, freshwater mussels. . . . whew! Come up with some more. Think outside the pasture.

There is a perrenial proposal in the Alaskan legislature to allow families to raise a moose or two for the freezer. It's a good idea in my opinion. In the old days (like in the 30's) people occasionally raised orphaned moose calves. I have seen pictures of people riding moose with saddles.

The proponants point out the uncertainty of getting a moose during the hunting season and the fact that wild meat is relied on for food in the bush.

The proposal is always shot down because no one can tell if the moose in your freezer is your own or a wild moose. (That could probably be dealt with requiring the harvest to include a tag and be during the moose season). The reality is the state views it as a bag of worms they don't want to deal with.

Most moose I've dealt with try to stay away from you. If you get to close, they'll charge (I've had this happen many times in the winter), but if you run, they only follow you a few feet. Don't fall down when your beating a retreat though. They can and will stomp you. They are browsers rather than grazers.

One additional advantage to keeping a moose would be to stake out the female during the rut and harvest a male or two. Understand, I'm not talking sport, I'm talking meat hunting. It would also be a good way to get your breeding done without the expense and trouble of keeping a male around. Any male calves would need to be neutered for safety (at least during the rut, when they can get real aggressive).

Reindeer are domestic caribou and a layman can't tell the difference. They've been domesticated in northern scandinavia for a few millenia. A bunch were imported into Alaska around the 1900's, along with a bunch of Sami reindeer herders to teach the natives to herd them. It was an attempt to move the natives from hunting/fishing/gathering to livestock keeping.

It is illegal in Alaska for a non native to own a reindeer. I doubt this would stand up if it came to court nowadays, but the state tries to make it stick without going to court. There is a white guy in Palmer,AK who has had a small herd for years, basically daring the state to take him to court. They bluff and posture, but have to date refused to either remove the law, or take him to court.

Yaks are great but once the temperature is over 60 f. they are not very productive. There's a huge report out there that has all the stats.

I think if you could some how get people to try cream from water buffalo, they would replace cows over night for dairy. That stuff is awesome! !

I think that the 'conventional' farm animals have earned their position for good reasons. The cow, the pig, and the chicken are simply the most versatile, productive, and efficient tools for the job of producing food on a farm.

Exotic animals may be tasty or nutritious or rugged, but they generally have a serious flaw that makes them the fringe players that they are. I have neighbors that raise all sorts of interesting exotics, and I cant say I envy them one bit. The fencing and acreage needed for bison or elk are cost prohibitive. The handling dangers of yaks are serious risks. Alpacas also are difficult to fence and succeptable to predators. I imagine that fencing and handling a water buffalo is a bit of the worst of both worlds as well.

Additionally, the cost of breeding stock for exotic animals makes it a really expensive proposition to give a try.

I think that in specific environments, where our standard farm animals are atypically maladapted, that exotics open up interesting possibilities. But in general, there is a time tested wisdom to cows and sheep, pigs and chickens.

Caribou would be so awesome, I would think that the pelt would have lots of value as well. I know a lady that has bison and according to her they are extremely nice and tame, but to get them that way takes alot of time and training. Her and her daughters were also talking about how you can use natural horsemanship on alot of animals other then horses and get good results. I need to try it with my young milk cow that is a little to hard to catch right now. I think that water buffalo would be another awesome one to use. Especially is someone could breed out a miniature one the way they are breeding out miniature cows right and left.
One thing that I have thought would be awesome, and very unlikely, is a miniature elephant, like 400 or 500 lbs. I would totally want one but I think the likely hood is not very great. But what good is life if you can't dream.

I think Okapi would be neat critter to farm in a forest system, as they feed on tree leaves.

Here in France there used to be a system using carp, Frogs and crops on the same land/pond in rotation .

David

I've been looking for a browser that you can ride. I know this is a romantic concept but horses are off putting to me because of the huge amount they eat and health problems associated with a species that has been bred for one purpose for so long. Mules are great, but sterile. Not something your grand kids could enjoy.

Reindeer are an option, but can't quite carry 200 pounds even as a strong buck.

I came across takin at a zoo. They are perfect! Takin are large goats found in the forest and mountains of Central Asia. They look like wildebeest and could definitely carry me. The negatives are that they are a threatened species (permits?), and one zoo said that they can't clean their enclosure while they are in there because they charge. I wonder if they charge because they are in a little 50' by 50' enclosure like the zoo I saw and just bored out of theirs minds, or if they are naturally aggressive.

We have replaced our Angora herd (I still have a dozen or so and they'll live out their lives with us.) and our pigs with a new venture involving wild animals.

After spending over two years dealing with administration and paperwork, since March of this year we've created a wildlife park with deer, wild boar and smaller game. Our main income comes from hunters who use the park to train and exercise their dogs, or who want to learn tracking or other bushcraft skills but there are a lot of other possibilities which we have explored and will put into practice once we feel comfortable moving on further into certain areas.

When the bigger game become too big/old or - in the case of the boar - too aggressive for our dogs, we will offer hunters or members of the archery club we created a couple of years ago the opportunity to kill that specific animal and they purchase the carcass at x per kilo.

Tokunbo Popoola wrote: i know this is prolly weird but id love to have a system with more native American animals in the system (yes i know cows, sheep, pigs, chicken, are great) but i wonder if you could fold more into the system when thinking a little out of the box i know bison and deer would need pretty high fencing but if it was a living fence would they go for it? example prickly pear fence.. mind you the camel would just eat it lol.

Yes you are weird. Good thing you're on permies here in the land of tolerant weirdos.

American mega-fauna are FAR LESS DOMESTICATED than all those fancy eurasian animals you mentioned and do not yet really understand or respect human concepts like 'property lines' and 'fences'

Can you imagine a buffalo herd of 300,000 strong? can you imagine a fence in the world that would hold them?

Why would you even try. Antithetic to the cure. Just my 2 bits

Guarren cito wrote:I've been looking for a browser that you can ride. I know this is a romantic concept but horses are off putting to me because of the huge amount they eat and health problems associated with a species that has been bred for one purpose for so long. Mules are great, but sterile. Not something your grand kids could enjoy.

Reindeer are an option, but can't quite carry 200 pounds even as a strong buck.

I came across takin at a zoo. They are perfect! Takin are large goats found in the forest and mountains of Central Asia. They look like wildebeest and could definitely carry me. The negatives are that they are a threatened species (permits?), and one zoo said that they can't clean their enclosure while they are in there because they charge. I wonder if they charge because they are in a little 50' by 50' enclosure like the zoo I saw and just bored out of theirs minds, or if they are naturally aggressive.

Pretty neat critters. I have never seen those before.

something small: quail. Chinese love the eggs and you can have them in a courtyard.

Landon Sunrich wrote:

Tokunbo Popoola wrote: i know this is prolly weird but id love to have a system with more native American animals in the system (yes i know cows, sheep, pigs, chicken, are great) but i wonder if you could fold more into the system when thinking a little out of the box i know bison and deer would need pretty high fencing but if it was a living fence would they go for it? example prickly pear fence.. mind you the camel would just eat it lol.

Yes you are weird. Good thing you're on permies here in the land of tolerant weirdos.

American mega-fauna are FAR LESS DOMESTICATED than all those fancy eurasian animals you mentioned and do not yet really understand or respect human concepts like 'property lines' and 'fences'

Can you imagine a buffalo herd of 300,000 strong? can you imagine a fence in the world that would hold them?

Why would you even try. Antithetic to the cure. Just my 2 bits

Mostly because thinking inside boxes get's you more boxes. I think the buffalo herd could be manage by living fencing/ and the size of that herd would be a wild herd. I also started reading about using sound to move herds. teaching a herd the "bad sounds" followed by the real bad sound. a bit like wolves and humans would move a herd. if we were talking about a large wildlife park. it would also work with horse herds. wild mustang so forth

Soay sheep are unusual in that they require no medications, no hoof trimming, no dental care, no shearing, no supplemental feeding, no lambing help, and they weigh forty to eighty pounds so you can keep them on a small acreage.

And they're not so uncommon! They are on craigslist here in NH. That means they aren't cost prohibitive.

They are very tame and come when called, and they are easy to fence in with a three to four foot fence. I'm pretty sure if you bottle feed any mammal and visit once in a while with a calm attitude then that mammal will be friendly.

They were abandoned on an island during preshistoric times and now don't resemble either hair or fur sheep because they are their literal ancestors.

It's important to me to have livestock that require no care. Research and observe to find what works best. Why pay for hay when the animal can harvest?

Choose unusual animals because the typical animals have all been coddled by humans for so long that they require constant care. For example, people have helped livestock have birth so now those genes are carried on and now your goat needs help during birth. Or the horse who has forgotten what kinds of poisonous plants kill parasites and so now needs dewormers bought by you and administered by you.

Guarren cito wrote:Soay sheep are unusual in that they require no medications, no hoof trimming, no dental care, no shearing, no supplemental feeding, no lambing help, and they weigh forty to eighty pounds so you can keep them on a small acreage.

And they're not so uncommon! They are on craigslist here in NH. That means they aren't cost prohibitive.

They are very tame and come when called, and they are easy to fence in with a three to four foot fence. I'm pretty sure if you bottle feed any mammal and visit once in a while with a calm attitude then that mammal will be friendly.

They were abandoned on an island during preshistoric times and now don't resemble either hair or fur sheep because they are their literal ancestors.

It's important to me to have livestock that require no care. Research and observe to find what works best. Why pay for hay when the animal can harvest?

Choose unusual animals because the typical animals have all been coddled by humans for so long that they require constant care. For example, people have helped livestock have birth so now those genes are carried on and now your goat needs help during birth. Or the horse who has forgotten what kinds of poisonous plants kill parasites and so now needs dewormers bought by you and administered by you.

The more I read about Soays, the more I like. The one thing I don't like about them is seasonal breeding. Katahdins can have three sets of lambs in two years. This negated by that more Soays ewes can run on the same amount pasture. The one processor I have dealt with liked lambs under 6 months and under 60 pounds. Since Soay may not ever make 60 pounds, I'd have to sale more of them to make up the same return.

Scanning through the thread, I haven't seen mention of the book "Microlivestock: Little-Known Small Animals with a Promising Economic Future"

http://www.cd3wd.com/data/1005/_ag_microlivestock_bostid_en_lp_112440_.pdf

There's been some scientific work done attempting to rear the tropical Paca (a large member of the rodent family) in captivity, for example. I've got them on my property all over, would be easy to grow way more tree crops than I can harvest and have them even more all over.




Who's raising guinea pigs outside of the Andes??

Guarren cito wrote:They are very tame and come when called, and they are easy to fence in with a three to four foot fence. I'm pretty sure if you bottle feed any mammal and visit once in a while with a calm attitude then that mammal will be friendly.

They were abandoned on an island during preshistoric times and now don't resemble either hair or fur sheep because they are their literal ancestors.
.

Soays are best known from the island of St Kilda in Scotland, and they weren't abandoned but the humans forced to leave by their landlord/s less than 100 years ago. I'm not 30 yet but there were still humans on St Kilda when my uncle was born.

Also fences mean nothing to soay sheep. I have heard direct from the handlers of a soay ram getting out over deer fencing and being killed in traffic. Yeah you can get them friendly and pretty tame, but don't think for a moment they're easy to keep in one spot. Talking to those who care for soays the only time they will generally stay in the field you put them is when they have small lambs (because the lambs can't scale the fences). I would imagine that they were kept much like many of the sheep on dartmoor (which I have more experience with) where the sheep have their territories and roam within that space. Actually I hear that not only are the sheep like this on the moors but the cattle and the ponies too. And I know some deer species like roe are territorial. So if you wanted to keep beasties like that then it would be easiest if you could make your land their territory and be prepared for them to move around the whole thing.

Getting sheep to stay some where without fences is called hefting but you need lots of time and space to achieve this

David

pato van ostra wrote:Scanning through the thread, I haven't seen mention of the book "Microlivestock: Little-Known Small Animals with a Promising Economic Future"

http://www.cd3wd.com/data/1005/_ag_microlivestock_bostid_en_lp_112440_.pdf

There's been some scientific work done attempting to rear the tropical Paca (a large member of the rodent family) in captivity, for example. I've got them on my property all over, would be easy to grow way more tree crops than I can harvest and have them even more all over.

Who's raising guinea pigs outside of the Andes??

they are really cool and would work really well in a food forest but how would you keep them?

it would be so awesome to have a pet anteater that I could take on walks through an orchard. I just imagine looking on blissfully as it mops up all the aphids and ants... hahahaha

Tony de Veyra wrote:it would be so awesome to have a pet anteater that I could take on walks through an orchard. I just imagine looking on blissfully as it mops up all the aphids and ants... hahahaha

yea not enough ants to support it..altho you were probably joking but thinking outside the box. is sometimes worth it in permaculture.

for example im thinking about mice. for raw food pet market.

Joseph Fields wrote:I think Okapi would be neat critter to farm in a forest system, as they feed on tree leaves.

Okapi, my favourite animal! But please let them stay where they are (in the central African jungle), they are much too rare!