Search...
Home Subscribe
Pie
Home Subscribe
Recent topics Flagged topics Hot topics Best topics
Search...
Search within skip workshop Search permies
Advance search Google search
Register / Login
world domination gardening permaculture chickens movie hazelnuts thread How to build a cheap underground house
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education skip experiences global resources cider press projects digital market permies.com pie forums private forums all forums
Building a Better World Book with earth bricks 100th Issue of Permaculture Magazine SKIP kickstarter learn permaculture and homesteading Permaculture bootcamp with people wielding tools PDC ATC vids
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Carla Burke
  • Nancy Reading
  • r ranson
  • Jay Angler
  • John F Dean
  • Pearl Sutton
stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • paul wheaton
  • Anne Miller
master gardeners:
  • Christopher Weeks
  • Timothy Norton
gardeners:
  • thomas rubino
  • Jeremy VanGelder
  • Matt McSpadden

Rebekah and Paul's Mentoring and Projects

 
Paul Fookes
gardener
Posts: 2125
Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
1008
6
I like...
hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
posted 4 months ago
  • Likes 5
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
This Page is for Rebekah and Paul to grow PEP 2 projects and make notes.

Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

 
Rebekah Harmon
Apprentice Rocket Scientist
Posts: 941
Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
459
3
I like...
kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
posted 4 months ago
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yay! Morning, Paul! This week I am going to finish the firewood bb :
https://permies.com/wiki/101204/Split-stack-dead-standing-wood
Unfortunately, I've been working with Aspens for this wood. I don't think there is any specific direction in the species. But in my area, sagebrush high mountain dessert, trees are very scarce. My husband and I get trees folks have cut from yards and golf courses for our firewood. Fir, spruce, pine, usually. But those are delivered to us in green logs and we process them and store them next to our house, with no roof over them. So, to meet the requirements of cutting dead-standing trees, I've asked people in town if I can cut down their dead trees in their yards, and I've gotten several responses, but they are all old, aged out aspens. They aren't straight and tall pines, that's for sure. So getting the pile to be all within an inch of eachother has been a challenge. I have NOT used several of the rounds I cut just for this bb, because of how they bowed, and therefore didn't look clearly 15.5 inches in the pile. Also, I had to find a roof to stack them under. I'm about halfway through, and I've been waiting for toddler-free time to use a chainsaw. Do you see any problems with what I've got so far?



Secondly, I've been getting ready for building a RMH. I've got the barrels burned and the paint peeled, most of the stovepipe pieces, and I will pick up the rest today, including the flashing and double walled pup that Opalyn said I needed in the clarification thread. I've got the site prepped and sand ready for leveling. My husband and I are still arguing over what materials to use for the bench. And until yesterday, I hadn't found soil clay-heavy enough for the cob around the feed box. But now I've found some! I think! Soil test pending. Any suggestions there?
20241109_170851.jpg
Firewood stack so far
Firewood stack so far
20241112_135307.jpg
Burn tunnel mock-up
Burn tunnel mock-up
20241113_091053.jpg
Failed soil tests, all with less than 10% clay
Failed soil tests, all with less than 10% clay

Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

 
Paul Fookes
gardener
Posts: 2125
Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
1008
6
I like...
hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
posted 4 months ago
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hi Rebekah,
Remember that one of the rules is that it has to be your work:

and we process them and store them next to our house,



I will look at the requirements so we can discuss on Wednesday (MT)

Will discuss RMH options.  Look at what you have.  I had an acquaintance who always said "you have enough"

Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

 
Rebekah Harmon
Apprentice Rocket Scientist
Posts: 941
Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
459
3
I like...
kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
posted 4 months ago
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Oh, yes, I am careful to work on this bb firewood stack by myself. All our family wood is pine/spruce, so it's easy to tell my aspenwood apart.

Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

 
Rebekah Harmon
Apprentice Rocket Scientist
Posts: 941
Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
459
3
I like...
kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
posted 4 months ago
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
    Number of slices to send:
    Optional 'thank-you' note:
    Send
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Mentoring Meet-up 1:

In this call, we covered the firewood bb clearly, going over
  • ideas to "clearly" show the wood is all the same length (as the requirements state)
    different ways to mark length as well as pile size of 4x4,
    successful submissions of other's in this same bb, and how they chose to show the requirements were met
    Also, I was concerned that some of my wood won't make a certifier happy, because it's not split and there are several small pieces. Paul pointed out other's piles in approved bbs that have 4-inch rounds which are not split, as well as very small pieces. He says there is no requirement covering these ideas, so not to worry about them too much.


    • We also discussed how, in some cases, such as a fireplace that doesn't fit a 15.5 inch log, or an area of the world that doesn't have poplar trees, a SKIPper could submit a bb as a Permaculture Experience according to Rebekah (PER, or whoever was posting the bb) instead of PEP. I had no idea this was an option! If I am unsure, it's a good idea to ask beforehand in the bb clarification thread. The bb would still need to have similar work involved.

    Next, we went through Paul's routine of bbs, and he showed me how he manages them. He keeps a journal with
  • bb requirements copied and pasted,
    pictures of each bb put in a folder on his desktop. One folder for ones he is still working on, then moving them to finished bb folders.
    the layout of his photos in the journal helps him double check that he meets the requirements
    finallly, he makes notes of what he learned during the bb process.


    • At the end, we discussed the idea of making a protocol for all folks who certify bbs.  We both have a feeling that some training for new certifiers would help everyone.
    This was a good, and careful discussion that will help me come up with my own routine for bbs. I hope to start on that this week :)


    Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

     
    Paul Fookes
    gardener
    Posts: 2125
    Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
    1008
    6
    I like...
    hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
    posted 4 months ago
    • Likes 2
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Great first meeting.  Looked at different options for submitting BBs and proper labeling of photos to make identification easier.
    Parts of a BB submission:
    - Intro to BB and discussion points.
    - Notes on requirements
    - Written proofs
    - Photo or video proofs
    - Final notes (if required)

    PER - Permaculture Experience Rebekah to manage BBs that are too specific to complete outside of the Lab
    Prior to submission, Rebekah will need to discuss on forum https://permies.com/t/120/210060/skills-inherit-property/BB-clarification-thread#2435746
    Rebekah is a great person to work with.  Loving the experience.

    Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
    Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

     
    Rebekah Harmon
    Apprentice Rocket Scientist
    Posts: 941
    Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
    459
    3
    I like...
    kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
    posted 4 months ago
    • Likes 1
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    So for a long while, I've been working on this bb:
    permies.com/wiki/150149/pep-food-prep-preservation/Store-Food-Living-State-food#1173161

    It has these requirements:
    Minimum requirements for this BB:
    - Storing food in a living state (possibly in a root cellar)
    - At least 20 pounds of each food
    - Six different species - Possibilities include:
     - Tree fruit
     - Root crops
     - Onions
     - Garlic
     - Cabbage
     - Tubers
     - Winter squash
     - Nuts
     - Seeds

    To show you've completed this Badge Bit, you must provide proof of the following as pictures or video (<2 mins):
      - at least 20 pounds of 6 different species of food
      - preparing the storage space/medium for the food stuff
      - food in stored in a living state (obviously not spoiled in any way)

    I've got my 6 species: apples, potatoes, sunchokes, parsnips, onions, pears. I'm not sure how to show the food obviously not spoiled in any way. How would you show this in a picture, Paul?

    Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

     
    Paul Fookes
    gardener
    Posts: 2125
    Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
    1008
    6
    I like...
    hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
    posted 4 months ago
    • Likes 2
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    I've got my 6 species: apples, potatoes, sunchokes, parsnips, onions, pears. I'm not sure how to show the food obviously not spoiled in any way. How would you show this in a picture, Paul?


    - Show the setting up of the storage spaces being set up
    - Take a wide photos showing the product on the scales, then stored and a close up of some of the product showing its quality.
    My thoughts would be to play to the strengths of the product.
    I know that some onions can last 12 months or more hung in a cool, dark, and airy space.  IE, a larder room, where the walls allow for free air movement but exclude vermin and insects.
    Research areas could include how to store apples.  Potatoes, chokes and parsnips do well in a root cellar.  There is a 'how to' here on Permies using a large garbage bin with a lid burried in the garage shed.

    Pears can be stored on the tree until ready to pick and from my experience last 2 - 3 weeks once picked.  They do not ripen on the tree but go to juice suitable, fermented or otherwise.

    Once it is stored and you have completed the BB you will have the opportunity to bottle (can), pickle, or dry the pears and apples.

    As discussed, look at what the others have done and select the best bits.
    Speak Monday

    Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
    Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

     
    Rebekah Harmon
    Apprentice Rocket Scientist
    Posts: 941
    Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
    459
    3
    I like...
    kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
    posted 4 months ago
    • Likes 1
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    This week, I am still working on the RMH build bb. It has these requirements:

    To get certified for this Badge Bit you must provide:
     - pic of area before build
     - pic of core (exterior of burn tunnel, heat riser and manifold) without barrel
     - pic of ducts or stratification chamber before mass
     - 3 pics of manifold
     - pic of completed product
     - pic of vertical exhaust going into the ceiling
     - pic of vertical exhaust coming out of the roof
     - 2 minute video of starting the fire and proving there are no smoke leaks
    lots of photo and video proofs

    In addition to these, I've been given specific direction from permies staff to improve the existing chimney in alignment with codes in my area. I think I have all the parts for that now, so the build can go on.

    Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

     
    Rebekah Harmon
    Apprentice Rocket Scientist
    Posts: 941
    Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
    459
    3
    I like...
    kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
    posted 4 months ago
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    In the background, I'm working on a textiles bb, knit or crotchet a sweater. It will take me most of the winter. I also have two bbs I am waiting for neighbors help with. Moving scoops with a tractor bucket and butchering a pig. As soon as those neighbors are ready, I'm jumping in on those, although they may be this week or next.
    For this BB, the minimum requirements are:
    -Start with 1 Live Pig
    -Killed in a humane manner
    -Processed and properly stored

    To document your completion, provide proof of the following as pics or video (less than two minutes):
    -Living Pig
    -Pig after slaughter, depicting the method used
    -Organs separated into suitable for human consumption / not suitable for human consumption
    and
    Requirements:

     - it must appear that at least five scoops was moved

    To get certified for this BB, post five pics.  

     - The pile of material before you begin
     - The destination before you begin
     - action pic
     - a pic of the source pile at completion
     - a pic of the destination at completion

    Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

     
    Rebekah Harmon
    Apprentice Rocket Scientist
    Posts: 941
    Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
    459
    3
    I like...
    kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
    posted 4 months ago
    • Likes 2
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    For our second mentoring session, Paul and I discussed these things:
    1. success of the firewood bb!
    2. A plan for the 5 scoops with a tractor bb, to make a video for ease of proof.
    a. Show source pile and destination piles untouched.
    b. show driving between piles
    c. each dump
    d. after shots of both piles
    e. option to show the clock and how long it takes me.

    3. Paul taught me about differences in butchering a big versis a sheep, both of which I hope to have a crack at this winter. There are differences in organs, kill processes, and treatment of the skins in the animals. *research is the key* Paul suggests pointing out when I receive help with the heavy lifting of the carcasses, that it was the only time I was helped.

    4. For the RHM build, Paul suggested starting a thread where I could post all my pictures as I go, since it's a long process.
    5. The storing food in a living state bb is finished, and I'm ready to turn it in. I've looked at what other successful submissions looked like, as suggested.
    6. For the Ruth Stout composting bb, it is not allowed to bury the food scraps under soil, only under mulch. I will remember that for future verifications.

    Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

     
    Rebekah Harmon
    Apprentice Rocket Scientist
    Posts: 941
    Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
    459
    3
    I like...
    kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
    posted 3 months ago
    • Likes 4
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Hello, Paul! I hope you had a great holiday :D

    Since we last mentored, I turned in the Store Food bb. I learned some things in the process, such as:
    a. My little outdoor root cellar works fabulously for all 3 types of roots I stored in it,
    b. Pears don't last nearly as long as apples do.
    c. My  freeze dryer is in my indoor food storage room. I've been running it, which contributes to the temperatures in there to be too hot. The onions haven't had any problems with this, that I can tell, but the apples and pears have been more mushy. I need to move my freeze dryer out of the room when I'm using it.

    I've also turned in some natural medicine bbs. I only have a few left in order to finish this badge.

    I haven't had a chance to help my friend butcher pigs or sheep yet. Or move those scoops with my neighbor's tractor. Hopefully those happen this coming week.

    Finally, I have been working on the RMH build every day. The system is already a success, in that it doesn't smoke-back into the room, and it heats up the greenhouse space very nicely in a short time with little wood. The cob is not quite halfway finished, and I plan to put about 2-3 hours into this every day this week until Saturday, when I hope to finish the build. I have started a thread for this build, and I have all the picture proofs I need, besides the "finished" pic and the lighting video.  I've been putting all the pictures into a specially designated folder, so turning in all these is easy. :D permies.com/t/270223/Rebekah-inch-RMH#2834738

    I've also been working on a weaving project for textiles: permies.com/wiki/164743/pep-textiles/Weave-cotton-linen-hand-towel#1292430
    I'm about 1/3 of the way through this project as well. It's the most intimidating of all the textile bbs I have left for the sand badge.

    Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

     
    Paul Fookes
    gardener
    Posts: 2125
    Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
    1008
    6
    I like...
    hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
    posted 3 months ago
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Great work
    Will catch up next week.  Safely back

    Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
    Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

     
    Rebekah Harmon
    Apprentice Rocket Scientist
    Posts: 941
    Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
    459
    3
    I like...
    kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
    posted 3 months ago
    • Likes 2
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Hey Paul! I've got the pictures ready for the RMH bb, I believe. Help me double check?

    To get certified for this Badge Bit you must provide:
     - pic of area before build
     - pic of core (exterior of burn tunnel, heat riser and manifold) without barrel
     - pic of ducts or stratification chamber before mass
     - 3 pics of manifold
     - pic of completed product
     - pic of vertical exhaust going into the ceiling
     - pic of vertical exhaust coming out of the roof
     - 2 minute video of starting the fire and proving there are no smoke leaks
    20241216_125346.jpg
    The area and existing chimney before
    The area and existing chimney before
    20241216_125541.jpg
    The manifold
    The manifold
    20241203_181322.jpg
    Stratification. Chamber before mass
    Stratification. Chamber before mass
    20241215_142621.jpg
    Completed product
    Completed product
    20241216_125456.jpg
    Vertical exhaust exits building
    Vertical exhaust exits building
    20241205_151401.jpg
    Vertical chimney going into ceiling
    Vertical chimney going into ceiling

    Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

     
    Rebekah Harmon
    Apprentice Rocket Scientist
    Posts: 941
    Location: 4a, high mountain dessert
    459
    3
    I like...
    kids foraging rabbit fiber arts medical herbs bee
    posted 3 months ago
    • Likes 1
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator

    During this week's mentoring with Paul, we covered several rocket bbs:
    a. heating a space for 1 week with a RMH, along with some temperature and thermometer ideas
    b. Build a j-tube RMH bb, looking over pictures to make sure I had what I needed for picture proof
    c. metalworking bbs that need a forge, and some ideas to make a simple forge at home
    d. electrical philosophy and a bit of good practices like using a volt meter and starting small when I get going with the electricity bbs

    Paul also teased me with the idea to write a book about my SKIP journey and how I've been able to support my family in being happier/healthier as I build a better world in our backyard
    We also discussed what's involved in being a staff member for permies.

    We are taking a holiday break before our next mentoring session. I have 10 more sand level bbs left to complete all 22 sand badges. I hope to work on them, 2 or 3 a week til then and finish them in the early new year, then turn my attention to straw bbs in 2025

    Being weird is easy. Making it mainstream is hard. Be brave! https://www.youtube.com/@healthygreenbrave

     
    Paul Fookes
    gardener
    Posts: 2125
    Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
    1008
    6
    I like...
    hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
    posted 2 months ago
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    For discussion: https://permies.com/t/197210/PEP-Woodland-Care-Sand-Badge#2832326
    8 Jan 25

    Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
    Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

    Staff note (Paul Fookes) :

    AAP Cleared.

     
    Paul Fookes
    gardener
    Posts: 2125
    Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
    1008
    6
    I like...
    hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
    posted 2 months ago
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    This is a thread example link https://permies.com/t/269382/Rebekah-Paul-Mentoring-Projects#2832987

    Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
    Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

     
    Paul Fookes
    gardener
    Posts: 2125
    Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
    1008
    6
    I like...
    hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
    posted 2 months ago
    • Likes 2
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Rebekak and I had a great mentoring meeting.  She has a plan for completing sand badges which will require the development of new skills and pushing out of her comfort zone.
    Worked through some activities such as attaching a thread/ post link.
    This completed our agrees 6 sessions.

    Plan moving forward is that we will do Q&A here with zoom meetings by exception.
    Rebekah will engage with other Permies members to develop new skills.

    PEP 2 or bust😊

    Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
    Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

     
    Paul Fookes
    gardener
    Posts: 2125
    Location: Gulgong, NSW, Australia (Cold Zone 9B, Hot Zone 6) UTC +10
    1008
    6
    I like...
    hugelkultur fungi chicken earthworks wofati food preservation cooking bee building solar rocket stoves
    posted 2 months ago
    • Likes 4
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
      Number of slices to send:
      Optional 'thank-you' note:
      Send
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Well done on the slaughter and clean a sheep BB.  Dropping with a shot is instant and does not allow for the adrenaline rush to toughen the meat.
    It will be good to hear how it cooks up and tastes.
    As a side note, your photo of the pistol shows great handling technique 👍

    Failure is a stepping stone to success. Failing is not quitting - Stopping trying is
    Never retire every one thinks you have more time to help them - We have never been so busy

     
    I guess I've been abducted by space aliens. So unprofessional. They tried to probe me with this tiny ad:
    Learn Permaculture through a little hard work
    https://wheaton-labs.com/bootcamp
    reply
    reply
      Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
    • New Topic
    Boost this thread!
    Similar Threads
    More...