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Rocket stove basis, is efficiency worth it?

 
pollinator
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I'll be honest, I really enjoy watching a fire. We are an outdoor family and have a lot of fires. (In Season) I cook over a fire at least 3 days a week, use the fire to heat water, melt wax for salves/candles, make coffee and tea, etc.

I have been considering building a rocket stove. I have the E&E materials to do so and have read a lot on masonry heaters.

I am not sure if I am willing to trade the enjoyment/non-efficiency of a fireplace for some other apparatus. I have acreage and part of the acreage devoted to a woodlot and I enjoy processing firewood. Having recently been studying " A pattern language", I am not sure I want to sacrifice the enjoyment I get from a live fire in full view for the efficiency of these other ways.

You folks who have made these different stoves, does it satisfy the desire to build, congregate around and enjoy a fire? There are a few places in my household where people just naturally congregate, nuclear household and guests. The dining table and the fireplace.

After all, commercial farming and so many other things are a product of "efficiency". Just apply NPK and everything will be okay. Obviously, this is not the whole picture. Are we losing some very important communal and individual relationships for the sake of "efficiency"?

Thank you for replying and giving your 2 cents.
 
master pollinator
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I totally get the primal satisfaction that comes from sitting in front of a fire. We coevolved with it and fire was the catalyst for so much of our development, starting with the ability to cook food and not need enormous teeth and jaw muscles to power them...which meant that we could gain more "headroom" for our frontal cortex and all the things that came with it. Like language, social structures, culture, art, and everything that makes us human. At the same time, our ancestors used fire and spread it across landscapes, enhancing burning cycles where they already existed and creating mosaics of diversity (but also sometimes introducing it to places and seasons where it was detrimental, to be fair).

I've spent a half century processing firewood and using it for warmth and cooking, and admit that there is nothing quite as satisfying as hanging around a welcoming blaze. But I'm not a teenager or 20-something anymore, and something I appreciate about the RMH is the far smaller volume of fuel that it needs. That's less for me to cut, split, shift, and stack, and the older I get the more that angle appeals to me. And I do like sitting on the cob bench in the greenhouse on a cold winter evening, watching the glow of the J-tube and feeding it sticks every now and then.
 
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Josh Hoffman wrote:I'll be honest, I really enjoy watching a fire. We are an outdoor family and have a lot of fires. (In Season) I cook over a fire at least 3 days a week, use the fire to heat water, melt wax for salves/candles, make coffee and tea, etc.

You folks who have made these different stoves, does it satisfy the desire to build, congregate around and enjoy a fire? There are a few places in my household where people just naturally congregate, nuclear household and guests. The dining table and the fireplace.


It's great that you make use of your fireplace! I have one in my second story bedroom, so I use it just about never.

I wonder if you could have the open fireplace and a rocket masonry heater? If there is a different location in your home that would be suitable?
 
rocket scientist
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The 7"x 7" window in Shorty Core is large enough to enjoy the fire.
The glass and the metal frame radiate extra heat.
20241203_074515.jpg
Soaking up the heat
Soaking up the heat
20241203_080210.jpg
enjoying the view
enjoying the view
 
pollinator
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Josh Hoffman wrote:I have been considering building a rocket stove. I have the E&E materials to do so and have read a lot on masonry heaters.

I am not sure if I am willing to trade the enjoyment/non-efficiency of a fireplace for some other apparatus. I have acreage and part of the acreage devoted to a woodlot and I enjoy processing firewood. Having recently been studying " A pattern language", I am not sure I want to sacrifice the enjoyment I get from a live fire in full view for the efficiency of these other ways.



I haven't (yet) built a rocket stove, or any other thermal mass heater, either, so maybe I should butt out.

However, it seems to me that you probably need to decide what your objectives/needs might be, and the relative weight of those objectives, both for having a place for fire, in general, and the possible rocket heater, in particular.

I see that you are located about 200 miles inland from the Gulf of Mexico, at around 1000 feet of elevation above sea level.  Your USDA zone indicates that you have a long growing season, with a comparatively short cool season.  I'm sure you really do need the heat for practical reasons sometimes, but cooling is probably more important than heating, for much of the year.  I tried to find a weather station either reasonably close to Louisville, or as a reasonable proxy, but most of the weather stations near you are at lower altitude (Starkville and Jackson and so forth).

If a person was burning 8 or 10 cords of wood per heating season (or even more) in a plate steel box stove, and has dropped that down to less than 2 after implementing a thermal mass heater, the return on the investment is pretty significant.  In your case, you are probably already burning "1/10th the wood" of someone using a conventional stove for primary heating in my neck of the woods, so the potential payoff in reduced usage is already greatly diminished.

At the risk of being heretical, it seems possible to me that the juice isn't worth the squeeze for someone in your situation (though only you can be the judge).  Even if you decided to keep the fireplace, rather than replace it with a rocket stove, you could probably do quite a bit to improve both combustion and heating efficiency of the fireplace (though it will still be a fireplace, of course).  For example, you could Rumford-ize it, you could add an operable chimney-top damper and insulate the exterior of the chimney (keeping more of the thermal mass within the heated envelope), you could add glass fireplace doors to improve combustion efficiency by limiting the excess air, add a circulator/Heatilator insert, etc.

As a counterpoint, my own objectives for a solid fuel heater include having a heat source independent of the grid, capable of handling primary heating loads (maintain some livable heated space, even parts of the house get cold), provide comfort and ambiance when used as auxiliary heat, do no violence to the architecture of our house, which was built in stages between about 1890 and 1920, and has a lot of the original casework and leaded glass still intact.  In the longer term, these needs may be answered by a batch rocket or a contraflow thermal mass heater (I'm still noodling), but in the near term, I plan to install a fabricated chimney and a soapstone stove (still a thermal mass stove, just very low mass in comparison to a true masonry heater) with good combustion efficiency.  Whatever I do in the longer term, it needs to have an aesthetic which is consonant with the architecture of the house.

SO, my best advice is to make a list of all of the things you must have or would like to have in "a place for fire".  Note which of those are met by your current fireplace, could be met be adapting or improving your existing fireplace,and compare/contrast with which objectives could be mat by a rocket stove (of one flavor or another).  Intangible objectives as you've expressed are still objectives.  It doesn't sound like you need to make the decision in haste, so maybe give the subject some thought throughout this heating season, paying careful attention to how and how often  and under what circumstances you use your existing fireplace, and whether, as a thought experiment, those uses would be better met by a rocket (J-tube? batch box?) stove.

On edit:  I thought maybe I should mention that it is certainly possible to have both an open fireplace and something very like a batch box within the same thermal mass.  I hesitate to invoke Igor Kuznetsov's name yet again, lest people take me for a complete fan boy.  However, he does have a lot of information freely available, with a good bit of commentary in English (rather than his native Russian), mostly translated by Alex Chernov (a Canadian member of the Masonry Heater Association), and a bunch of free stove plans.  Igor was heavily influenced by Podgorodnikov, who was in turn a student of Grum-Grzhimailo, the first (as far as I am aware) to enunciate the theory of bells by analogizing to inverted ponds.  So all that being said, Kuznetsov has several thermal mass heater designs on his website which have both an open fireplace and a more conventional thermal mass heater firebox within the same mass.  At least one also has a heated bench.  He gives several arrangements with the stove portion either to the side or back to back with the open fireplace, or even to the side, but with the firebox and ash doors facing the same direction as the fireplace.

Try the "OIK K" plans here (OIK means a heating appliance, K means "kamina" = fireplace):
http://eng.stove.ru/products/oik_k

Especially, maybe see OIK K2 or K3 (back to back), the K1L (with the bench), and the PK1 (firebox door facing the same way as the fireplace) to get an idea of what is possible.  Poking around his other plans will show you what else can be done (e.g. the RTIK 6 sun. doesn't have a water jacket, as drawn, but does have a black bake oven and iron cook top plate, and also a heated bench - and the traditional arrangement would be to have a wooden framed bunk bed built at the height of the top of the thermal mass, and perhaps another beneath the bunk with a curtained and paneled enclosure to help retain heat; usually the young, old or sick  would have first dibs on the heated upper bunk).

With a bit of work, the standard firebox/ash drawer arrangement shown by Igor could be replaced by a batch box.  I have an evil scheme to do just this for an OIK-14 (i.e. strictly space heating)...

There are many other Eastern European and West Asian masonry heater designers and builders, but Igor's stuff is quite accessible (thanks to Alex) for those not speaking Russian, and he is well known and respected (though some seem to have had personality clashes with him, and I can't be the judge of any of that).  Igor is quite opinionated about the designs of other stove builders, and sometimes his elbows are a little sharp, so some of this friction may simply be due to his frank assessments of the perceived shortcomings of those other designs cutting a bit close to the bone.  He really has very little good to say about most of the state sponsored designs of the late Soviet period, though he does mention that Podgrodnikov's 77cm X 77cm (footprint) heating stove is "very good".  For a flavor of his design philosophy - and his certitude of rectitude! - see: "http://eng.stove.ru/stati/osnovyi_konstruirovaniya_pechey".
 
Rocket Scientist
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As already alluded to, your climate will have a big influence on how worthwhile swapping your fireplace for a RMH or similar would be. How much wood do you currently use in your indoor fireplace in a year? How many nights do you want heat overnight, compared to a cozy fire while sitting around in the evening?

A small, low-mass RMH with a glass-door batch box would give overnight warmth whenever you want. I would use the thinnest masonry walls consistent with safety, for quick heating and overnight warmth without making the place too warm the next day.
 
Josh Hoffman
pollinator
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Thank you for the comments. The location aspect is an important part of the conversation. With hot tent camping with the kids, heating, wood smoker and some outside fires when friends are here, I may use 3 cords per year plus or minus of course.

I imagine if I was tripling that, I may not find the same enjoyment in processing the wood. I have an old rusted but okay shape mountaineer stove that was here when we bought the place. I wonder if I can use the door or other parts to experiment.
 
Glenn Herbert
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Three cords is a fairly significant amount of wood, though it sounds like a large part of that use could be outdoors and thus irrelevant to possible RMH use/savings. Can you give a guess how much of that is burned in your fireplace or otherwise indoors?

The old stove door is probably not ideal, but would probably work for experimenting with. Does it have glass so you could see the fire?
 
Kevin Olson
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One more thought on improving the efficiency open fireplaces.

There is a beast, apparently once quite common in the Swedish countryside, called a "Rörspis":
https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B6rspis
It's basically a 5-channel contraflow, with the firebox as fireplace (either with or without doors - if ever I made one, I'd want doors, for sure, and probably some sort of screen as well, for when it is being operated as an open fireplace).

I found a paper (in Swedish) discussing construction of just such a heating appliance, with more or less step-by-step instructions, including color photos:
https://gupea.ub.gu.se/bitstream/handle/2077/81347/Lociale.Frida_2024.pdf

Not shown in these instructions, but I would definitely want a blast gate at the top of the masonry, to stop convective losses up the stack when the fire is out.

Though cosmetically different externally, this is quite similar in operating principle to some of the "pönttöuuni" Finnish stoves, and especially similar to a contraflow masonry stove shown in Figure 72 in G. E. Asp's book "Uuninmuuraaja", to which I have taken a shine (though Asp adds an extra thermal mass radiator, to improve heating on the opposite side of the wall).  Some of the section views of other stoves in Asp are very rocket-y looking, with tall refractory risers blasting stack gasses into a close-fitting bell, though the velocity might be too high to actually stratify as a bell ought to do.  I would think some minor adjustments in geometry from the given Rörspis instructions to make the firebox more Rumford-like (in other words, a bit shallower, with a broader spread on the wings of the firebox) would throw a bit more radiant heat when actively fired.  Depending on intended use (ambiance vs. exclusively space heating vs. cooking), this might be helpful, though building more or less as drawn is probably the safest as a first attempt.
 
Kevin Olson
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Josh Hoffman wrote:...I may use 3 cords per year plus or minus of course.



Wow, more than I expected, though considering you are at elevation, maybe I should have guesstimated higher usage.

Just to clarify, this is full (logger's) cords, not face cords?  In other words, you are using on the order of 384 cubic feet (11 cubic meters and change) of per year or heating season?

As I said before, only you can make this decision, but it seems to me that 3 cords per year would justify some effort toward improved efficiency (especially as you get older - my dad is now into his 80s, and just carrying wood upstairs from his basement is about all he can manage at times, to keep his plate steel stove stoked).
 
Josh Hoffman
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Kevin Olson wrote:

Josh Hoffman wrote:...I may use 3 cords per year plus or minus of course.



Wow, more than I expected, though considering you are at elevation, maybe I should have guesstimated higher usage.

Just to clarify, this is full (logger's) cords, not face cords?  In other words, you are using on the order of 384 cubic feet (11 cubic meters and change) of per year or heating season?

As I said before, only you can make this decision, but it seems to me that 3 cords per year would justify some effort toward improved efficiency (especially as you get older - my dad is now into his 80s, and just carrying wood upstairs from his basement is about all he can manage at times, to keep his plate steel stove stoked).



4'x4'x8' for a cord is what I had in mind. I cut my logs 20" long and so I may be a little off in one direction or another. I would say 1/3 to 1/2 of the total is used in the smoker year round, recreationally in a hot tent camping with the kids, or for an outside fire pit with company or kids.
 
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