Wood siding

I posted this question in the natural building forum as well but added some variables to the situation and am looking for as many opinions as possible.

Im looking to side our house with wood from our property. Its a 3 bedroom ranch style house in Michigans upper peninsula, so relatively humid summers and cold, snowy winters. We have eves and gutters all around the house and the siding doesnt start until about 18” off the ground. Theres good air flow around the house due to a large field across the road where our prevailing winds come and some shade due to a few trees on the south and west sides of the house.

I have access to several red pines, several poplars/aspens and a few large basswoods. The trees all run from 12”-20” across at the base. I can drop, limb and cut the trees to length myself and have a friend and 2 different uncles with portable sawmills so the milling should be cheap. I probably wont be doing this until next summer and will probably cut the trees about a year from now in winter before the sap starts to flow, get them milled in spring and let them dry throughout the summer while I tear off the old siding and prep the house.

Trying to decide on which species to use. My understanding is none of these are ideal but my thoughts are, wood wont rot without moisture and with our eves and gutters and the fact that the boards will be dry when installed and stained, they should last quite a while regardless of which species we use. But if Im wrong, please let me know! We dont want paint, at least not right away. We would much rather use a stain of some sorts and figure if we ever want change we can paint later.

I used red pine to side our chicken coop and its doing just fine but its less than 3 years old and was treated with a product called “internal wood stabilizer” which was way too expensive to use on an entire house. That was all air dried red pine. A local wood shop owner said unless kiln dried at high temperatures, red pine knots will bleed for years as they bake in the sun. He recommended air drying vs kiln drying to help prevent warping and twisting. He also said “old timers” in the area used to use basswood for siding and it worked fine but other locals Ive talked to have never heard that and wouldn’t recommend it. Most of what I read online about poplar for siding is actually about tulip poplar which isnt even a poplar and not what I have access to. We have aspens, cottonwoods and their hybrids here.

Im kind of torn between board and batten or live edge lap siding. Or maybe lap siding down below and board and batten on the gables.

Any advice or opinions about this would be greatly appreciated!

An old timer near me had a family hunting cabin in the woods that had poplar shingles on it and they held out water for 30 years.  I think I'd trust poplar over basswood but that's just a hunch.

I have kiln dried white pine in my greenhouse and it weeps sap :(  I don't know if it was winter cut or not though...

If doing lap siding, I'd try to research if any of those species is more likely to cup.  If doing board and batten, be sure to nail it on correctly.  I hear the best way is to nail down the center of the boards only, nail thru the battens but not also thru the boards.  That way the boards can shrink and expand and won't split themselves apart on the nails.  I think maintaining air flow behind the siding is important but not sure how to do that without making space for an ant farm.

Mike Haasl wrote:An old timer near me had a family hunting cabin in the woods that had poplar shingles on it and they held out water for 30 years.  I think I'd trust poplar over basswood but that's just a hunch.

I have kiln dried white pine in my greenhouse and it weeps sap :(  I don't know if it was winter cut or not though...

If doing lap siding, I'd try to research if any of those species is more likely to cup.  If doing board and batten, be sure to nail it on correctly.  I hear the best way is to nail down the center of the boards only, nail thru the battens but not also thru the boards.  That way the boards can shrink and expand and won't split themselves apart on the nails.  I think maintaining air flow behind the siding is important but not sure how to do that without making space for an ant farm.

I just read a study from the 80s about testing Aspen lap siding with different finishes in Washington, Mississippi and Wisconsin and it sounds like rough sawn is always better than planed, latex paint is the longest lasting but can hold in moisture and semi transparent oil based stain can last 10 years depending on a variety of factors.

The wood shop guy here told me pine knots will ooze sap unless the sap is “set” in the wood at high heat and his steam kiln doesnt get hot enough. At least not with a tremendous electric bill.

I believe you’re right about nailing board and batten and i think furring strips/horizontal nailers are used which helps with air flow a bit. But yes, definitely a convenient space for critters to hang out, and we do have lots of ants and yellow jackets here. Although lap siding would also give plenty of hiding spots for them. I think poplar/aspen tends to move quite a bit when drying. The air dried red pine lumber we made several years ago warped quite a bit, but the 1” thick live edge boards stayed pretty flat for some reason.

I have no knowledge of your timbers.
BUT I have nailed a lot of 'weather boards' as we call them.
Nails are often the weak point so I use galvanised bullet head nails.
I use one nail per board, per stud.

If you paint the boards you do not need to fill the nail holes to protect the raw nail.

John C Daley wrote:I have no knowledge of your timbers.
BUT I have nailed a lot of 'weather boards' as we call them.
Nails are often the weak point so I use galvanised bullet head nails.
I use one nail per board, per stud.

If you paint the boards you do not need to fill the nail holes to protect the raw nail.

What you call weatherboards look to be the same as clapboards or beveled siding. What kind of climate are you in and what type of wood do you typically use? If nails are the weak point, wouldn’t something with a larger, flat head hold better than a bullet head? Seems like the board could cup and pull through those little nail heads.

We use these boards all over, hot dry or wet damp.
Flat head nails are not used because they break the timber, bullet heads sit in nicely.
If plain nails are used they need to be punched in and putty filled prior to painting.
If Galvanised plated bullet nead nails are used no punching or filling is required prior to painting.
50mm x 3mm nails are used, they do not 'pop' through because of cupping, if you study the system, cupping cannot happen.

In Australia, timber weatherboards are manufactured from either imported or local timber, with common species including Cypress Pine,
preservative treated pine (usually Radiata, Slash, or Hoop), and imported timbers such as Baltic Pine.

John C Daley wrote:We use these boards all over, hot dry or wet damp.
Flat head nails are not used because they break the timber, bullet heads sit in nicely.
If plain nails are used they need to be punched in and putty filled prior to painting.
If Galvanised plated bullet nead nails are used no punching or filling is required prior to painting.
50mm x 3mm nails are used, they do not 'pop' through because of cupping, if you study the system, cupping cannot happen.

In Australia, timber weatherboards are manufactured from either imported or local timber, with common species including Cypress Pine,
preservative treated pine (usually Radiata, Slash, or Hoop), and imported timbers such as Baltic Pine.

How do flat head nails break the wood? Do they cause splitting? And do you putty the plain nails so that rust doesnt develop and stain the siding boards?

Brody, best to try nailing yourself.
As I said, flat heads break the timber, yes splits it.
The putty work stops rusting and staining.

Any opinions on spruce vs red pine for siding? Leaning towards board and batten except for maybe doing some live edge lap siding on the gables.

Was planning to use red pines but I have a lot of obstacles to avoid dropping them and kind of like where they are at. But then remembered we have at least 8 big spruces on the property and have access to more nearby. They are in a bad spot and would be good to get out of the way. Plus, spruce are getting sick and dying around here so it could be good to get some use of them soon.

Would one be more desirable than the other for siding? Or are they more or less interchangeable?

I'm not sure about which would last longer as siding but you may want to check if they're sound before counting on the spruce.  By me they tend to get rotten on the inside a while before they die.  Same for balsam fir...

Mike Haasl wrote:I'm not sure about which would last longer as siding but you may want to check if they're sound before counting on the spruce.  By me they tend to get rotten on the inside a while before they die.  Same for balsam fir...

That’s a good idea, thanks.

Flat head nails split and finish nails pull out if the wood moves too much. Which is better depends on the species, thickness of board, and where the nail is placed. And how it’s driven—over driven flat heads definitely split worse. I don’t know the right answer for your situation, test your options and pick your poison. Finish nails definitely look better in my opinion, unless you overdrive them with a gun and then they are ugly.

Galvanized nails for a nail gun are a slight premium over regular, stainless are available but $$$.  We would use galvanized ring shank nails in a regular air gun turned way down, then finish driving them with a hammer and a special punch—it has a guide collar so you can’t miss or bend the nail. I think they call it a trim nail punch.  Made for driving nails into aluminum trim.

A quarter inch air gap between the siding and sheathing will do WONDERS for letting the siding dry and last longer. You can rip pieces of plywood or 2x material or buy the stickers material from a lumber mill. They make bug screens for the top and bottom, some are like heavy filter material used for ridge vent (cobra filter) and some are perforated metal and some are corrugated plastic. None are cheap, but if you have a Menards they sell sheets of Coro-plast you can rip down for a decent price.

R Scott wrote:Flat head nails split and finish nails pull out if the wood moves too much. Which is better depends on the species, thickness of board, and where the nail is placed. And how it’s driven—over driven flat heads definitely split worse. I don’t know the right answer for your situation, test your options and pick your poison. Finish nails definitely look better in my opinion, unless you overdrive them with a gun and then they are ugly.

Galvanized nails for a nail gun are a slight premium over regular, stainless are available but $$$.  We would use galvanized ring shank nails in a regular air gun turned way down, then finish driving them with a hammer and a special punch—it has a guide collar so you can’t miss or bend the nail. I think they call it a trim nail punch.  Made for driving nails into aluminum trim.

A quarter inch air gap between the siding and sheathing will do WONDERS for letting the siding dry and last longer. You can rip pieces of plywood or 2x material or buy the stickers material from a lumber mill. They make bug screens for the top and bottom, some are like heavy filter material used for ridge vent (cobra filter) and some are perforated metal and some are corrugated plastic. None are cheap, but if you have a Menards they sell sheets of Coro-plast you can rip down for a decent price.

As of now I think we’re going with Spruce, and maybe 3/4” thick. Unless thicker or thinner would be better. Seems to me that nails shouldn’t pull out from wood movement if the boards are only nailed on one edge or in the center right? I thought I read for hidden fasteners you want to nail on one edge of a board where the batten will cover it but if you arent worried about seeing nail heads, just put one in the center of the boards and let the battens hold the sides down. If nailed on both edges then nails pulling our or splitting boards seems inevitable. No experience here though, thats just my logic. I would consider using screws instead of nails if puling out is a concern regardless of how their nailed. And if I do use nails, I will likely hammer them in. I dont mind swinging a hammer and dont get to do it often.

As for an air gap goes, Im still planning that. We have 2x4 walls so are considering adding some insulation to the outside and not sure how thick or which route to go on that. Also looking into rain screen materials like nylon mesh strips and whatnot. I forget the brand names but there are a few products out there that I could lay 1/4” thick by 4” wide strips horizontally across the sheeting and it would allow air flow and water drainage behind the siding. Im sure they are expensive and maybe coro plast would be just as good and cheaper, Im not sure. And bug screen is also going to be part of it. Not sure what to use for that yet but definitely will be putting something in the gaps on top and bottom.

Nails will still loosen as the wood swells and dries in thickness, but shouldn’t split or get loose enough to be an issue. My preference for board and batten is to nail the boards on one edge, then finish the boards if you’re going to. Then screw the prefinished battens in place with stainless or color matched screws. That way you can tighten the battens if they dry a lot or remove them to re finish. You can also screw a few boards on the same way if you need an access panel.

Clapboard/bevel edge/weatherboard siding is traditionally edge grain.  The earliest manufacturing would have been by riving (splitting).  Later, they were sawn with radial kerfs on the log, nearly intersecting near the heart.  As of a few years ago, there was a mill somewhere in the American South (Tennessee?  Kentucky?) still making them this way on an old saw mill, mostly for historic restoration/preservation, or (at the asking price) for the discriminating buyer.  This method requires bigger diameter stems than plain or tangent sawn clapboards, which are what you'll get as commodity clapboards, at least on the US market.

The clapboards I bought a couple of years ago to patch a few spots on our house are most definitely not edge grain, though they are from clear wood.

Here's a tour of a homemade clapboard mill:

This seems like one of those things that could generate some cash income at small scale if someone had the skills to cobble one up.

On edit, here's the commercial mill's website:
https://www.wardclapboard.com/
I was dead wrong - they're in Vermont.  Maybe there is another in the American South?

Anyway, here's the Ward Mill in action:

Conjecturally, someone might rig up a rotisserie to fit the bunk/rails of a swing blade mill, similar to the mill Tommy Bolin has shown in his recent skidable shed build thread, which would be a much simpler project than building the entire thing from scratch/scrap, as the bush engineer in the linked video did.  My hat's off to him, though - he made something out of what a lot of people would consider nothing.

Alternatively, I've also noodled on whether a rig could be built for use with a gnarly circ saw - rotisserie and guide rails.

I have a Makita 5204 (old model, all die cast and no blade brake, 20 amp draw @110 volts), which has a 1"/25mm arbor and can swing a 16-5/16" (415mm) diameter blade.  Max depth of cut with base square to blade is about 6-1/4" (160mm).  I bought this saw desperately cheap as "for parts only", and returned it to operating condition.  Ideally, I'll eventually make a new base plate for it from aluminum plate, but it does work with the stock stamped steel plate, as is, and I have used it a bit to cut framing lumber (it will cut a nominal 6X6 in one pass, which is nice).  Serious timber framers use these to drop cut tenon cheeks, but I'm not there yet.  There are blades for swing mills which might (just barely) fit into the blade guard of a saw like this (for example: https://baileysonline.com/lucas-mill-17-saw-blade-for-model-6-sawmills.html), but I have a sneaking hunch that this would be pretty rough duty, even for the big Makita.  Even with multiple passes to reach full depth of cut, it might be asking a lot of a hand saw to rip clapboards.

I've also kicked around whether a DIY portable band mill head could be driven with the big Makita.  That seems more likely than the circ saw clapboard mill rig, but still might be a bit much for it.  Potential application of the band mill would be 2- or 4-siding timbers on site.  However, with a different rotisserie arrangement, it still might be possible to use a band mill to cut proper edge grain clapboards, but it seems like it will get tricky as you near the end, cutting the last few weather boards from the (halved) cant.  At least, I think that's what I'd try - first rip the log in half, then slice off wedges from the exposed free face, lather-rinse-repeat.

R Scott wrote:Nails will still loosen as the wood swells and dries in thickness, but shouldn’t split or get loose enough to be an issue. My preference for board and batten is to nail the boards on one edge, then finish the boards if you’re going to. Then screw the prefinished battens in place with stainless or color matched screws. That way you can tighten the battens if they dry a lot or remove them to re finish. You can also screw a few boards on the same way if you need an access panel.

I might screw everything and skip nails all together. I just dont want issues since its my house and it seems like screws will just hold much better