Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda Grape Vine Placement and Trellis

I have a tendency to "go overboard" some people would say. Normally I start out in some stage of analysis paralysis then I decide that I have had enough and then I make a decision and execute.

Some decisions I regret and some I am happy with. Such is life.

My question is, are you happy with your grape placement and trellising? If so, could you write a little on it or post a picture?

If not, what would you have done differently?

I have some scuppernongs I need to plant. I have 2 males and 2 females.

I currently have some other muscadines growing over the fully enclosed chicken run. 2x4 wire on top. I find that situation to be kind of a pain. Looks nice but not too practical to harvest.

My decisions are usually based on the information that came with my plants.

Our grapes were planted on the east side of our house when we lived in the Dallas, Tx area.

Thus I have no pictures.  I don't remember having males or females.  I don't believe that was a thing.

If I remember correctly we had some green grapes and some red grapes.

Life got in the way and we never used them for wine.

Our grapes are in full sun (perfect) and the trellis is sturdy with 4x4 wooden posts and 1 inch EMT conduit  instead of wire. It is a 4-arm cordon system. Looks (sort of) like                 |======|=====|. We didn't plant the grapes or put in the trellis. I think the trellis itself is well-done. Unrelated to your question, but I wish we had a more disease resistant variety. Western NC is not ideal for grapes, lots of fungal disease.

I don't have a photo right now, but it looks like a standard grape trellis. We did change our ties from nylon to jute as they started to show wear.

We are planning to place another trellis. We may start with fittings we bought from Planet Whizbang (Herrick Kimball) where you use T-posts and EMT conduit. Probably not as sturdy, but we will see.

Tanya White wrote:Our grapes are in full sun (perfect) and the trellis is sturdy with 4x4 wooden posts and 1 inch EMT conduit  instead of wire. It is a 4-arm cordon system. Looks (sort of) like                 |======|=====|. We didn't plant the grapes or put in the trellis. I think the trellis itself is well-done. Unrelated to your question, but I wish we had a more disease resistant variety. Western NC is not ideal for grapes, lots of fungal disease.

I don't have a photo right now, but it looks like a standard grape trellis. We did change our ties from nylon to jute as they started to show wear.

We are planning to place another trellis. We may start with fittings we bought from Planet Whizbang (Herrick Kimball) where you use T-posts and EMT conduit. Probably not as sturdy, but we will see.

That is super helpful about the 1" EMT instead of wire. I use that stuff all the time around here. Do you have a vine at each end or one in the middle going out both directions?

About how long is it total? I am assuming 20' long since the EMT is in 10' sections.

Tanya White wrote:Western NC is not ideal for grapes, lots of fungal disease.

I am pretty sure that most muscadine varieties, including the different scuppernongs, are very disease resistant.

Josh, to answer your question

The total trellis is 20 feet. There are 3 4x4 wooden posts (|) with holes drilled for conduit that sticks out the ends (one post is in the middle). There are 2 grapevines (V), each one in the middle of each EMT conduit; each conduit is 10 feet long.


|===V===|===V===|.

My grape trellis is 160 feet long. T posts driven into the ground, with old pieces of steel conduit as a single support at chest height. The posts are on 8 foot centers with one grape at each post. Touring European vineyards, it looks like I could space them as closely as 3 feet. I intend to add another grape between each existing plant, which I will support with what we call a "dancer" a stick tied to the upper support, but not buried in the ground.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:My grape trellis is 160 feet long. T post driven into the ground, with old pieces of steel conduit as a single support at chest height. The posts are on 8 foot centers with one grape at each post. Touring European vineyards, it looks like I could space them as closely as 3 feet. I intend to add another grape between each existing plant, which I will support with what we call a "dancer" a stick tied to the upper support, but not buried in the ground.

Knowing that spacing is helpful. Everything I read is geared towards commercial situations and they want 15'-20' between vines. I assume because of all the chemical inputs they use and room for machinery.

Josh Hoffman wrote: Everything I read is geared towards commercial situations and they want 15'-20' between vines. I assume because of all the chemical inputs they use and room for machinery.

Wow, that seems extreme to me. I agree, most of what's advised about anything, is based on maximum production or to accommodate machines and often in a commercial context. My grapes are just stuck along the back fence of the back garden and among the cedar trees just outside the garden and a few others growing on makeshift trellises or in the trees, here and there in the yard.

The road to my house is over 3/4-mile dead end with old fences along each side, for years I cloned and planted vines there too.  All together I have about a mile and a half of grapes.  None of them are in an ideal location or produce as much as they might, but I don't care, some are too high in the trees for me to even get to. All I want is to eat some fresh when I'm working in the garden or going for a walk and enough to make several pints of jelly each year. I'm also fine with it if the critters take a big share, which they do.

What I hope eventually happens is that they cross with our wild grapes and make a new race of larger, sweeter wild type and that the birds will spread them all over the place.

I’m following a system based off Ison’s muscadine design. Muscadines have a slightly different growth habit and pruning needs compared to traditional wine grapes. My great grandfather had a three wire trellis system which he managed religiously. However, finding grapes amid all the vines was tricky and three wire is no longer recommended. His vines were very productive, however.

My muscadines are on a single top wire attached to either side of my privacy fence. Fruit trees have taken up the majority of my yard space, so I’ve had to make do with attaching a 12 gauge wire to my 6ft privacy fence’s 4x4s. I had fun harvesting grapes this year (third or fourth year in ground and this was my first harvest). I put organza bags over the clusters of grapes post pollination to keep the bugs and critters away.

The fact that they are growing in part sun limits the grapes production, but I’m happy with any amount, mostly for nostalgia’s sake. I have many happy memories harvesting grapes from my great grandfather’s .25 acre backyard vineyard. I’m happy to carry on the tradition.

https://www.isons.com/instructional-videos

I am going to have a new trellis shading the big west-facing living-room window BEFORE SUMMER!!! The black locust posts are ready, (grew them myself) and I have some bamboos that will span E-W on cedar 2X6 "rafters" spanning S-N. The grapes have been in for years already: One is a Swenson's Red, which was my grape-breeding Phd. friend Lon Rombough's favorite, because it is so unique in flavor, and is NOT seedless: most all hardy seedless grapes have the same daddy: Tom. Not that I dislike them, they were mostly bred at Cornell and bear names form the Finger Lakes region of New York (and if you say Upstate? I'll reply WESTERN NY) So the small seeds in Swenson's Red are crunchy, and the seeds contain picnogynols, which are healthy for you. And you have to be real lucky at a farmer's market to find any. So: I will be able to see the grapes from where I am typing this, and the bird's are gonna entertain my housecat. The grapes will be on the trellis before summer, because the main vines were planted years ago, and are already bearing. (it took awhile to get the posts together, although most are from trees I planted in other locations.)

I don’t have any grape vines at present, but I have had them. I bought a concord grape which I will be planting out in the spring.

I think pruning is an important consideration when planting new grapes.  Most commercial grapes and wine grapes are pruned every year. But there are other things to do with grapes. I once saw grapevines left to climb up into the oak trees. The owners liked it that the birds could eat those grapes. I have seen grapevines used on shade structure.   It’s important to keep in mind, grapes are like Wisteria. Year after year, they get heavier and heavier and heavier.

I did have grapevines over my enclosed Chicken run. The wire in the roof of the Chicken run was about 7 feet off the ground. I planted the grapes outside the pen and let them crawl over the top. I enjoyed watching the chickens stand under a hanging bunch of grapes or leaves and jump up to try to get a bite of something good. I never even tried to harvest those grapes. Those were purely for the chickens.

Where I am now there are hundreds of deer. I think if I planted grape vines to grow on the barbed wire fence, the deer would eat them all. I would not even have vines. I will have to plant my grapevines in the area the dog patrols. She loves to chase the deer away.

I don’t have a picture, but some commercial wine vineyards have no supports for the vines.  Each vine stands independently, they’ve been planted on a grid.  They have been pruned over the years to resemble bonsai.  Strong branches come out of a central “trunk”.  The branches are strong enough to support the grapes.  I have seen these in dry farmed vineyards on central coast area of California.

It’s probably important to know where to cut, and where to leave a bud.  

What I like about this system is that in the dormant season the ground between the vines is accessible.  One could easily compost or grow green manure crops, or fava beans.

If I can find a photo I will post it.

For more, search old vine

About 40 years ago, I put in a 20x40 inground pool and with it, lights in the corners surrounded by a chain link fence about ten feet from the perimeter of the pool all the way around.  I planted Concord grapes on the east and west sides, to cover the fence rapidly.  I planted daylilies around the whole perimeter to keep any grass at bay and for color.  I planted wine grapes on the north side which I soon lost interest in and have been trying to eliminate ever since.  They are persistent little buggers! I have since planted four pawpaws on the outside northern perimeter.  Fingers crossed that they do well.  One is growing well, while another was weed whacked more than once and another was mowed over before I could do anything about it.  They came back, but obviously were set back a bit!  I had stakes marking them and daylilies growing around, but the guy who did it was oblivious.  Geez.
As a kid, my dad had built me a small arbor that acted like my "fort" and I used to love eating those Concords with friends every fall.  My "now" grapes have been producing bucketloads every year and I can access them either from the inside or the outside of the fencing. Since I've started canning, I steam-juice the fruit and can the juice for throughout the winter.  I get enough to snack on throughout the fall and then have juice throughout the winter from just those two grapes.  In the summer, they offer privacy from the neighbors when I'm back there in my bathing suit. I absolutely love them. I know it's not conventional, but I don't prune them in the winter, but wait until the summer and cut back the vines that don't have any fruit. I find it's softer and I can fit all of the trimmings into my cart whereas in late winter, they are stiff and don't allow me to fit much in the cart, requiring multiple trips to dump the debris out back.  They produce just as well if not better than the old way, and they get light and I get room back in my seating area.
I also had a large structure built, (10'Wx60'Lx7'H?)upon which I planted seedless Concords.  They would grow and produce, but as soon as the fruit would start to ripen, it would all fall to the ground.  Years of that, and I got rid of them.  I've since replaced the seedless variety with kiwi.  Last year, I got my first fruit.  This year, I plan to add maypops on the south side and schisandra on the north. I have a small aluminum bistro set set up underneath as a place to take breaks when I'm out picking blueberries or weeding back there.  It will be a lovely place to enjoy the fruits of my labor!

Josh Hoffman wrote:I have a tendency to "go overboard" some people would say. Normally I start out in some stage of analysis paralysis then I decide that I have had enough and then I make a decision and execute.

Some decisions I regret and some I am happy with. Such is life.

My question is, are you happy with your grape placement and trellising? If so, could you write a little on it or post a picture?

If not, what would you have done differently?

I have some scuppernongs I need to plant. I have 2 males and 2 females.

I currently have some other muscadines growing over the fully enclosed chicken run. 2x4 wire on top. I find that situation to be kind of a pain. Looks nice but not too practical to harvest.

I don't know yet. Last year I made a 'pergola' and planted a grape next to it. It was a little bit late, the grape did not grow much. But as far as I know it is still alive.
As soon as there's something to show I'll make photos and share them with you here.

Of course my situation is different from that of professionals who have a vineyard to produce wine. I only want to have a nice climber on my pergola to give some shade and (hopefully) sweet fruits to eat.

I have a 16x8 trellis that I have poured concrete piers piers above grade with 1/2” rebar protruding 6 inches so to mount the cedar corner posts. Tied it together with primed and painted 2x6’s as I didn’t want treated lumber which at some point would have to be treated or painted. Cross braced with 2x2’s on the ends and one long side then ran 2x2’s across the top to support the vines and to further strengthen the structure.