Experimenting with the willow feeder idea...

I've used the Jenkins Humanure system, which involves handling lots of buckets, for around fifteen years.

And it's getting hard work for me. I'm beginning to dread the job of emptying all those buckets and cleaning them and covering the humanure heap and getting it all done before my energy runs out for the day.

My other half is beginning to express his view that he does not want to watch me grow old handling all those buckets and is threatening to install a flush toilet in the house.

But then my son managed to source a few free used plastic barrels and I'm wondering if we can experiment with a basic willow-feeder system, which would be a whole lot less work!  

The more I thought about it, the more it made sense to at least experiment.  

First things first, how many barrels would we need?

Paul's system is standardised on a 32 gallon can, which he feels with 5 people will take about 3 months to fill. Then you need enough barrels so you can store them for two years so they are pathogen-free by the time they are opened again.

We have five barrels so far, with no idea how big they are. 32 gallons is a bit over 120 litres. So the first thing to do was to take one of them and set it under the orange tree, which needs watering anyway, fill it with water and count out how many litres of water were in it by scooping them out one at a time and emptying them under the tree.



I'm pretty sure they are substantially smaller than the 32 gallon ones used at Wheaton labs, I just wasn't sure how much smaller.

So I got busy with my jug...



Turns out it holds 66 litres, which is 17.5 gallons, almost half the size of the wheaton labs barrels. My orange tree appreciated the experiment though!

Now, some quick calculations. If five people fill a 120 litre barrel in three months, then they will fill four in a year. So nearly 500 litres storage space needed for five people, so 100 litres each. 200 litres each for two years.

There are three of us (my son uses our humanure system even though he lives next door...) so we'll likely need 600 litres of storage space. So ten of our little 66 litre barrels as a rough guestimate. And we only have five so I've given my son instructions to keep his eyes open for more. I guess if necessary we could buy some, but we do have enough for a year-long experiment in the meantime.

Hi Burra.
Cool that you’re starting that experiment. Liters per person per year will be a very interesting number to find out, share and compare.

My guess would be that you need less volume using bigger barrels because the humanure has more time in the barrel, allowing for more compression and breakdown while still using it and filling it up more.
So maybe go for a couple extra barrels. Or empty them after under 2 years. Should also not be a problem.

Will you be able to fit the barrel under your current bucket system?

Benjamin Dinkel wrote:My guess would be that you need less volume using bigger barrels because the humanure has more time in the barrel, allowing for more compression and breakdown while still using it and filling it up more.

I'm pretty sure that will be the case. With the bucket system we use, there's a couple of inches of space taken up each time by fresh sawdust at the bottom, and there has to be a space left at the top rather then filling it up all the way, for the sake of practicality in using! And it doesn't really have any time to compact as they get changed out every four or five days. The end result is that we most certainly use more than the guestimated 200 litres each for two years.

I'm pretty sure that if we set up a very basic system we'll soon get a very good idea of how long one barrel lasts though.

Will you be able to fit the barrel under your current bucket system?

Unfortunately not.

We currently have rather classic loveable loo design, much like this one



And there's not really any scope for modifying it. And in any case I want to keep it in case we revert to using it or need to move it into the house (it currently lives in the shed...) in an emergency.

Next stage is to brainstorm an exceedingly simple structure to enthrone the barrels. With a step that doesn't look too intimidating on my bad days...

I find that as I get older there are a lot of changes.

Since I have a balance problem, I would have to use smaller buckets and empty them more frequently.

The way I compost is to feed the wildlife and let stuff happen.  I cannot walk to that area as often as I used to so many of my scrapes get dried and then put in the trash.

To me, if your partner is not into emptying the bucket then do it the way that you are able to.  Empty more frequently and let the compost do the work.

Anne Miller wrote: Empty more frequently and let the compost do the work.

But the idea is to have less work and less frequent handling. Humanure composting involves having to gather mulch, open up the heap, add the contents of the buckets, cover the heap, scrub the buckets, then clean myself up. Then after two years I have to dig it out of the heap and put it around trees. If I did that every time a single bucket was full I'd end up doing very little else. Plus every time I open up the compost heap there is the risk of flies carrying pathogens. I want to reduce the number of emptyings, not increase them.

If I can get a system where there's one bigger barrel that I can empty directly around a tree once every two months or so then all that has to be done is to get one of the boys to move the barrel to whichever tree is the chosen one and I just get to tip it out and put some mulch over.

The willow feeder is NOT a composting toilet. It just stores the poop until it is pathogen-free and can be used directly on the ground around trees.

I really want to experiment so I can do a direct comparison with what I've done for the last 15 years.

Burra Maluca wrote:
The willow feeder is NOT a composting toilet. It just stores the poop until it is pathogen-free and can be used directly on the ground around trees.

I really want to experiment so I can do a direct comparison with what I've done for the last 15 years.

I’m very interested in your results.

This might be knitpicky but it’s been on the tip of my tongue for a while. So I’ll spell it out here.
The lovable loo/humanure handbook setup is also not a composting toilet. No composting happens in the toilet.
The composting happens in the pile.

I understand that the goal of the willow feeder is a safe product with less interaction and less composting (less nutrient loss). Some composting will still take place over the course of 2 years.
Jenkins reviewed tons of studies about composting. How do we know the product of the willow feeder is as safe as the product of a 1 year composting process?

Benjamin Dinkel wrote:How do we know the product of the willow feeder is as safe as the product of a 1 year composting process?

It's a long time since I studied the humanure handbook, but I do remember that most of the pathogens were destroyed by the composting process and then he recommended leaving the heap for an extra year so that any remaining ones died. One year to build the heap, one year to let it stand and for the remaining pathogens to die.

In which case leaving it two complete years would do the job of pathogen killing.

Here's one of Paul's videos.



In that he says that after two years 99.999% of the pathogens will be gone. You'll have to ask him for sources if you want more than that.

For me, the current choice is Jenkins' humanure or a willow feeder. And I'd like to try the willow feeder so I can compare!

My other half is beginning to express his view that he does not want to watch me grow old handling all those buckets and is threatening to install a flush toilet in the house.

In my opinion the better half is sometimes right and in this case, I would have to agree. If you have the land and the finances for a septic system, it will almost certainly make your life easier and more comfortable. If the issue is toxic chemicals and the like getting into the rivers, all you have to do is not dispose of them in the drain, better yet don't buy them in the first place and you can also still pee outside if your so inclined. Pretty much the same rules as for a willow feeder, or so I assume without all the hauling, breathing and storing of feces or sourcing an ongoing supply of sawdust.

Mark Reed wrote:In my opinion the better half is sometimes right and in this case, I would have to agree. If you have the land and the finances for a septic system, it will almost certainly make your life easier and more comfortable. If the issue is toxic chemicals and the like getting into the rivers, all you have to do is not dispose of them in the drain, better yet don't buy them in the first place and you can also still pee outside if your so inclined. Pretty much the same rules as for a willow feeder, or so I assume without all the hauling, breathing and storing of feces or sourcing an ongoing supply of sawdust.

To be honest, I might let him when the time and finances are right. But it would be nice to have a greener alternative that will feed my trees that we can use when we feel up to it!

We're already very strict about what cleaners we buy. There is no drain, just a very basic grey-water system which waters my fruit trees. Nothing like a system like that for making you crazy strict about what chemicals you use.

Himself pees outside. I have a pee-bucket in the house which gets used on the garden.

Burra Maluca wrote:

Mark Reed wrote:In my opinion the better half is sometimes right and in this case, I would have to agree. If you have the land and the finances for a septic system, it will almost certainly make your life easier and more comfortable. If the issue is toxic chemicals and the like getting into the rivers, all you have to do is not dispose of them in the drain, better yet don't buy them in the first place and you can also still pee outside if your so inclined. Pretty much the same rules as for a willow feeder, or so I assume without all the hauling, breathing and storing of feces or sourcing an ongoing supply of sawdust.

To be honest, I might let him when the time and finances are right. But it would be nice to have a greener alternative that will feed my trees that we can use when we feel up to it!.

I like this idea! The bins of poop just sit, so it's honestly pretty low-maintenance when you can't use it. I hadn't thought about that aspect of how you can use it when you can, and ignore it when you can't.

Burra Maluca wrote:
First things first, how many barrels would we need?

Paul's system is standardised on a 32 gallon can, which he feels with 5 people will take about 3 months to fill. Then you need enough barrels so you can store them for two years so they are pathogen-free by the time they are opened again.

We have five barrels so far, with no idea how big they are. 32 gallons is a bit over 120 litres. So the first thing to do was to take one of them and set it under the orange tree, which needs watering anyway, fill it with water and count out how many litres of water were in it by scooping them out one at a time and emptying them under the tree.

I'm interested to see what your results are. We used 50 gallon barrels for a couple of years and found two adults would fill one in 2-3 months.  

Aaron Yarbrough wrote:I'm interested to see what your results are. We used 50 gallon barrels for a couple of years and found two adults would fill one in 2-3 months.  

Ooh that's interesting - a HUGE difference. That would mean I'd need an awful lot more barrels. Like about four times as many!

I think the only way to know how many barrels I'd need is to just get on with it and see how long the ones we have take to fill up. We can always revert to the humanure loo if we run out.

I wonder if we have enough bits of salvaged wood around...

We're finally getting the willow feeder sorted!

We had to buy some wood in to make a good job of it.

Roxa, my little purple dragon, is helping...

More progress is happening with the willow feeder...

This is the underside of the 'seat', with three bits of wood installed to make sure the top of the barrel stays in the right place.



Austin is sanding a notch so that the lid will be easier to lift, though to start with it won't be hinged so we can just slide it out of the way.



It's quite a heavy lid so we want it wide enough for four fingers, not just one. For this job, a simple hole isn't appropriate as we want it fly-proof.



The seat is hinged to the top of the frame. There is an opening to the right which will be covered by a door to allow easy barrel changing.



And the lid will fit here, complete with lifting-notch.



This will hinge up like this eventually, but we want to thoroughly test it first to make sure it's positioned where we need it to be, not just where we think it ought to be.



I haven't photographed it, but the rather heavy-duty base is made and very soon we will be putting the whole frame together, cladding it, and making the access door.

Superb work Burra
We love to see what projects you and Austin get up to, thanks

Very cool!
I have often thought that a storage tote could be used instead of a bucket or barrel, so the container would be bigger but remain low to the ground.
Easier to drag across the ground, and potentially stackable.

Roxa is delighted to report that the willow feeder is essentially ready to deploy!





Austin's been working on it with her in an attempt to keep her out of too much mischief.

We might take some more photos later to illustrate its finer points, but Roxa is exceedingly proud of her efforts and is keen to show the rest of the gang what she's been up to.

I'm also pretty sure a kid-friendly dragon story will ensue, too...

Oh, and I think she's going to name it The Philosopher's Throne.

A few more photos to show some of the construction...

The entire top/seat lifts out of the way to make changing the barrel easier. There's a chain to stop it flopping over and breaking its hinges, and a rod is pushed through to stop the lid flopping open.

One side panel is completely removable so the barrel can be more or less dragged out instead of lifted right up and over the sides, which sounds far too much like hard work for old ladies like me...



There's an eyelet in the lid to hold a bit of rebar to stop the lid flopping when we're changing the barrel.

Those three bits of wood are for accurate positioning of the barrel so the holes line up!



Removable side being replaced.



It's a nice snug fit and clips into place.

The chain just folds out of the way down the outside of the barrel when the top is closed.



Top/seat fits snuggly and is clipped into place.

The bit of iron bar that pinned the lid in place has been removed too.



It looks a long way down to a little plushy dragon...



Roxa is testing it by sitting on it.

Which isn't quite its intended purpose, but close enough. It is her Throne, after all...



The intention is to install it within the next couple of days and use some scavenged blocks as steps until we are quite sure what size we want them to be, and then build some more appropriate and permanent ones. We figured it was better to experiment until we got it just right, for us, rather then guess and have to live with it if it was wrong enough to be annoying but not quite wrong enough to be worth re-building.

Mark Reed wrote:In my opinion the better half is sometimes right and in this case, I would have to agree. If you have the land and the finances for a septic system, it will almost certainly make your life easier and more comfortable. If the issue is toxic chemicals and the like getting into the rivers, all you have to do is not dispose of them in the drain, better yet don't buy them in the first place and you can also still pee outside if your so inclined. Pretty much the same rules as for a willow feeder, or so I assume without all the hauling, breathing and storing of feces or sourcing an ongoing supply of sawdust.

Ah well, finances are a big aspect in fact.  The smallest/cheapest "official" septic tank is north of €600 to buy before you add in the plumbing, any needed licensing and installation.  Even if I do all the installation myself, it's likely gonna be not far short of a grand to get it all done right.  It's possible to make a multi-chamber septic system using IBCs, but that's more work and more digging and the geography of the place requires it to be underground.  Plus IBCs don't grow on trees either.

The total cost so far is probably around €200 for materials plus about €15 for 2 oldish second hand barrels to match the 3 we already had.  If we end up buying new barrels (for lack of second hand ones the right size) then they're around €35 each.  We're hoping to avoid that but even if we end up buying, say, 10 that still beings the whole project in under the price of just buying the septic tank.  We can readily get wood shavings for not too much money which are what we use anyway in the current Jenkins system.

We finally installed the willow feeder!

This is it, after hauling the old lovable loo outside and just before taking the new throne inside. Roxa and Austin both look very pleased with their handiwork...




Those concrete blocks are going to be pressed into service as makeshift steps. We want to test them out to make sure we have the size and design absolutely right before committing to anything long-term and thought they'd do until we're absolutely sure how we want them.

Even Newton came out to see what it was all about. I think he's trying to catch his tail in an attempt to explain something about closing nutrient loops. He can't quite reach it though. I think he might need a bit of help...



And we haven't quite figured out what that naughty raven is up to.



I'm sure the dragons will put it all into a suitable story before long though.

Now, I wonder how long it will take us to fill the first barrel...

Looks good!
I wonder whether a sawdust container could be built into the steps?

Nancy Reading wrote:I wonder whether a sawdust container could be built into the steps?

Well it's a possibility, though at the moment the steps are just a couple of breeze blocks and offcuts of wood left over from renovation jobs. Also, dare I say it, the shed is a bit of a dumping ground for stuff that doesn't have a proper home so fancy storage steps might be a bit of overkill. The wood shavings are currently just in a big bag.

Rosa seems to have moved in there and is waiting patiently for her friend Nigredo to come out of the barrel but he doesn't seem inclined to. I suspect he may be some time...