Rooster Flock and Chicken Composting

Long time lurker, first time poster. I want to preface by saying that I don't have any land to work with at the moment, so all of this is theoretical and I'm really just looking for peoples' thoughts.

I really like the chicken composting runs I've seen online, namely Edible Acres system for a number of reasons. Here's the playlist of some of his videos talking about his system, it's a tad meandering but very interesting. For one, it's composting and thus handles food and carbon waste really well. I also like the idea of having a constant supply of microbial rich compost as an "amendment" of sorts for other areas with less soil life for one reason or another. On top of that, Edible Acres has used the compost from this system as a heat source for his winter run and a high tunnel which I would love to try. I could go on, but we all know that compost rules.

Here's the catch: I'm vegan. The traditional permaculture view here would be that you want to stack functions, and have an egg yield from hens that live in this system. I have no doubt that chickens living in this type of system are happier and healthier than those in most any other system, but I won't be changing my mind on eggs (especially since the number of chickens required to make a system like this work means that I would need to sell/distribute eggs). Which left me questioning if it's possible to have a system like this without buying into what I find to be unethical systems (large scale, industrial breeders).

This is where rooster flocks come in. The premise being that it's very difficult to sex chickens when they are young, and often times people will buy (or hatch their own) chicks only to discover that they ended up with a few too many roosters than they can handle. Roosters near hens will get very territorial, and this ends up either making a lot more work for the chicken farmer to separate the roosters, or they kill the extra rooster(s). However, if roosters are kept in an all male flock, with no hens in sight (or hearing range), they can get along (at least based on what I've read online). To me, this seems like a win-win. The chicken farmer who is raising chicks can sell me a rooster or two to make up for their losses for however much they paid (or ideally hatched), I get to have my chicken compost system w/o having to deal with eggs that I won't eat and probably cannot get rid of fast enough, and my personal favorite is that it avoids a lot of unnecessary culling of baby chicks as is seen in industrial chicken farming.

I'll also note here that roosters tend to be more affectionate than hens, are better able to defend them selves against predators (probably not by much), and depending on the breed can have their feathers used for fly fishing lures (not my cup of tea but an interesting yield).

What are your thoughts on a rooster flock? Do you have one? Anything that I might be over looking?

Hi,
I am not a vegan, so please bare with me, if I suggest something that is against your beliefs.

I too dislike the large scale commercial farms that treat the animals like pieces in a factory. And doing this, will give the chickens a great life. I too have heard that roosters can settled down if there are no hens around, but I have never actually done this myself. Please note that chickens are individuals, and whether or not they are nice or affectionate has much to do with how they are raised.

I think it would be an interesting experiment to see how it would work. You would need some level of protection for the chickens... even roosters. You would need a way to produce or haul a lot of material for the compost. I don't know what scale you are thinking of, but many places use the bodies of animals and animal manure as a large portion of the material. Would that be ok within your beliefs?

Also, perhaps you could get hens that are too old to lay eggs? Or at least don't lay many? Would you be comfortable using any stray eggs as further compost?

Hi Matt,

I would 1000% still do protection! I guess I more meant if (hopefully not when) something goes wrong I trust a group of roosters more than I would just one! I have some interesting ideas with flock protection as well but probably not worth getting into as I haven't played around with the ideas enough.

You raise a good point about bird personality, I should probably do more research there!

As for input material my thought process is to use mostly food waste (my own, and as things scale up, ask local restaurants/supermarkets), and worms. The idea being that anything the roosters deem inedible will get eaten by worms, and turned into more worms which the birds will eat. Edible Acres also does soaked organic grain seed which I will likely replicate as a way to account for minerals/vitamins that food waste does not hit.

Lower laying hens is something I've thought about, but I think has a few problems. Chickens can eat their own eggs, and I would be fine feeding them back to the hens. Unfortunately there will almost certainly be surplus, and the issue with composting excess eggs is that the smell can attract predators. I think it might be possible if I were to find eggs pretty quickly after they're laid but seems like more work on my part. Not to mention that egg laying in general is taxing on the birds, and might require supplementing more calcium than I would with roosters.

Old hens could work, but I think there are less people trying to get rid of old hens as opposed to getting rid of roosters. Maybe I'm a bit off base but I think the general consensus is that once the hen is too old, she's turned into a meal. Roosters on the other hand are realized to be a liability much earlier and thus people aren't as eager to eat them since they are not full sized. Again I could be wrong about that, I don't really know how chicken farming works in that regard.

I don't know anything about rooster flocks, but I'm interested to read more.

I'm curious what vegans feed to carnivorous pets. If you have a few cats and dogs, I bet they could be convinced to eat a lot of eggs. And every can of meat that you don't buy because your happy, healthy hens made your dogs some eggs, represents animals not slaughtered far away. I get how, for any of a number of reasons this might not work for you, but since it might, I thought it was worth bringing up.

I'm really intrigued by what you have proposed.

I, too, have no experience with a bachelor flock but I have heard that they can work rather well. I would love to have a coop of many different beautiful roosters with their long tail feathers and striking colors. I wonder the frequency that they crow, if at all? A couple here or there wouldn't bother me, but if they start trying to harmonize...

An unfortunate part of chickens are that roosters tend to be undesirable. It'd be nice to change that, even for a few of them.

Christopher Weeks wrote:I don't know anything about rooster flocks, but I'm interested to read more.

I'm curious what vegans feed to carnivorous pets. If you have a few cats and dogs, I bet they could be convinced to eat a lot of eggs. And every can of meat that you don't buy because your happy, healthy hens made your dogs some eggs, represents animals not slaughtered far away. I get how, for any of a number of reasons this might not work for you, but since it might, I thought it was worth bringing up.

This could be a whole topic of conversation! I know that cats and I think dogs can eat eggs, but I'm not sure if that becomes problematic if you were to then take away meat entirely. I do however know that there are dog foods that are yeast-based and from what I understand are healthy. I personally only have pet bunnies, but I much prefer eggs to meat in this regard! I find it interesting to balance permies ideas with vegan ideas to find happy middle grounds like this :)

Timothy Norton wrote:I'm really intrigued by what you have proposed.

I, too, have no experience with a bachelor flock but I have heard that they can work rather well. I would love to have a coop of many different beautiful roosters with their long tail feathers and striking colors. I wonder the frequency that they crow, if at all? A couple here or there wouldn't bother me, but if they start trying to harmonize...

An unfortunate part of chickens are that roosters tend to be undesirable. It'd be nice to change that, even for a few of them.

Yeah I've been trying to think about this to... I know that you can turn old/thrifted/cheap towels into sound-proofing panels but I'm not what you would do about them when they are outside...

Z Winigrad wrote:I personally only have pet bunnies...

Well there you go...Easter eggs! ;-)

This is a very thoughtfully researched question.

We have White Leghorns, RIR's and crosses between the two for layers. Those breeds are known for egg production. I would say that the seasonality of egg production slowing toward the winter solstice and increasing towards the summer solstice would make for a challenge if you aimed to sell the eggs exclusively. Between our family, the dogs, and barter, we can go through all of the eggs but it would be a challenge if we did not eat them. We increase our egg product consumption with the excess and tighten up in the lean times. We do not want an artificial light for the darker times of the year so we embrace the seasonality.

Do you have dogs to feed them to?

We hatched 50 eggs in the spring and waited for the layers to lay and sold them. We put all of the roosters in chicken tractors and grew them out for the freezer. 2 tractors with 15 in each one. 6'x10' John Suscovich style with metal roof. There was absolute pandemonium during the sunrise and sunset but otherwise, they all played well together. During sunrise and sunset, there was a lot of fighting and doodle dooing. I personally like the crowing so that was not a bother. No chickens were seriously injured or killed so that was not an issue either.

My wife is on FB and I get on her account to sell chickens. There is one group, out of many, called poultry lovers of Mississippi. In the late spring, if you have transportation, you could get as many roosters as you wanted, for free. That seems to be the time folks bought all of the TSC straight run chicks and started to figure out that they do not want the roosters. You could also get a few at a time throughout the year as they are always offered for free intermittently.

I do not see your location but I would be this is true all over the country.

I keep our meat rabbit breeders on wire suspended in the chicken coop/run and tractor the kits. Between the chickens and rabbits, we have an endless supply of some of the best compost I could ask for. I think what you propose is a good idea and worthwhile endeavor given your vegan convictions. I would only add that chickens can get injured or get sick and you will have to cull them "out of the blue" so to speak. Have a plan for that. Can you cull them yourself or should you have someone lined up to do so?

You can compost the carcasses.

Josh Hoffman wrote:

We hatched 50 eggs in the spring and waited for the layers to lay and sold them. We put all of the roosters in chicken tractors and grew them out for the freezer. 2 tractors with 15 in each one. 6'x10' John Suscovich style with metal roof. There was absolute pandemonium during the sunrise and sunset but otherwise, they all played well together. During sunrise and sunset, there was a lot of fighting and doodle dooing. I personally like the crowing so that was not a bother. No chickens were seriously injured or killed so that was not an issue either.

My wife is on FB and I get on her account to sell chickens. There is one group, out of many, called poultry lovers of Mississippi. In the late spring, if you have transportation, you could get as many roosters as you wanted, for free. That seems to be the time folks bought all of the TSC straight run chicks and started to figure out that they do not want the roosters. You could also get a few at a time throughout the year as they are always offered for free intermittently.

I do not see your location but I would be this is true all over the country.

Super interesting stuff here! I hadn't really considered rooster tractor before, I figured they would be all over each other if they could hear the hens. This feels like a great answer to having too many roosters if you are hatching them and eventually putting them in the freezer! I'm curious if you found that moving 2 rooster tractors was a lot of work or not. To me, moving one sounds like a lot of planning and heavy lifting so I'd love to hear your perspective!

Sorry about the lack of location info, this is planning for Finger Lakes region NY, so Zone 5a/b ish and a fair amount of rain on well draining soil (wine country).

Josh Hoffman wrote:

I keep our meat rabbit breeders on wire suspended in the chicken coop/run and tractor the kits. Between the chickens and rabbits, we have an endless supply of some of the best compost I could ask for. I think what you propose is a good idea and worthwhile endeavor given your vegan convictions. I would only add that chickens can get injured or get sick and you will have to cull them "out of the blue" so to speak. Have a plan for that. Can you cull them yourself or should you have someone lined up to do so?

You can compost the carcasses.

A couple questions here if you don't mind:

1) I take it the rabbits are a meat breed? I have angora rabbits more as pets (I'm still in an apartment) but I've been thinking a lot about how to incorporate them into a more permaculture-y system. Keeping angoras outside probably doesn't work due to rain and dirtier fur but maybe someone with more experience can chime in on that. I do like the idea of a mesh bottom and having rabbit poop end up in the compost area, but I worry about bumble foot/associated health concerns with the rabbits. I don't mind my current system of scooping poop but it won't scale well if we get more rabbits.

2) Roosters and kits together in the same tractor? Are there more than 2 tractors? I admit that I don't know much about animal tractors, I should look more into this.

3) Sickness is something I'm not looking forward to dealing with, but I can manage as the time comes. I am curious about the carcass thing though, I would think that could cause problems for the live birds if they are in close contact?

Thanks for all the info you've given, I really appreciate it!

Z Winigrad wrote:
I'm curious if you found that moving 2 rooster tractors was a lot of work or not. To me, moving one sounds like a lot of planning and heavy lifting so I'd love to hear your perspective!

I am not sure what my John S. tractors with a metal roof weigh. He uses a tarp for a roof in his design so I imagine they are much lighter than mine. I do not have wheels on them, I made the runners curved on the ends. I used a 5 gal bucket lid for the curve profile to give you an idea. I can lift up on the rope and pull them without wheels. Moving 2 is not a big deal and I did so manually for a season. Now that I have an old electric golf car, best purchase ever btw, I move them with the cart mostly.

Z Winigrad wrote:
1) I take it the rabbits are a meat breed? I have angora rabbits more as pets (I'm still in an apartment) but I've been thinking a lot about how to incorporate them into a more permaculture-y system. Keeping angoras outside probably doesn't work due to rain and dirtier fur but maybe someone with more experience can chime in on that. I do like the idea of a mesh bottom and having rabbit poop end up in the compost area, but I worry about bumble foot/associated health concerns with the rabbits. I don't mind my current system of scooping poop but it won't scale well if we get more rabbits.

They are "mutts" I guess I would say. I select for size, friendliness, and heat tolerance. They are a mix of breeds but selected to do well for us, in our environment. They stay under cover and 3 walls around their area but no ac or heat or anything. This makes the rain and most environmental factors a non issue.

I have not had any issue with keeping them on wire. There is part of me that wants to test out a colony setup with a few of the grow outs but another part of me realizes that the rabbits I have, and their offspring I select, have been kept on wire for generations and generations. I may build out a colony setup to try next year anyway. It is on my list...

Z Winigrad wrote:
2) Roosters and kits together in the same tractor? Are there more than 2 tractors? I admit that I don't know much about animal tractors, I should look more into this.
I'm curious if you found that moving 2 rooster tractors was a lot of work or not. To me, moving one sounds like a lot of planning and heavy lifting so I'd love to hear your perspective!

I am sorry I was not clearer on this point. I do not keep them together. I breed the rabbits in the fall/winter/spring due to the heat and tractor them then. In the winter months, the grow outs are on wire due to lack of grass. Once the tractors are empty of the rabbits, it is time for the broiler chickens to go in so it works out really well with out seasons.  

Z Winigrad wrote:
3) Sickness is something I'm not looking forward to dealing with, but I can manage as the time comes. I am curious about the carcass thing though, I would think that could cause problems for the live birds if they are in close contact?

I should have been more clear on this also. I do not tolerate aggressiveness in my laying flock of roosters or hens. I have 6 children from 9 YO to newborn and the older 2/3 help with the animals. I teach them to respect the animals and be cautious but I cull any chickens that are aggressive. These RIR hens and roosters have been the worst so far. I allow most behavior in the broilers because they end in the freezer anyway and I am the only one to go in the tractors after they are 6-8 weeks old.

I say that to say that any unscheduled culling is due to sickness or aggressiveness. Sick birds do not get eaten, Aggressive ones usually get skinned. I put the (not sick) skinned carcass in the coop for a day or two to let the chickens pick it clean.

I put the whole sick or injured chickens and the picked clean carcasses in the active humanure pile, not the chicken deep bedding.

1. Some rooster breeds are definitely more aggressive towards each other than other breeds, so I'd research that and choose accordingly. You may need to be prepared to cull or isolate an aggressive rooster if you end up with one.  Having lots of space, lots of "different areas", lots of different perches, will go a long way towards birds not fighting with each other.

2. I would not feed a dead chicken back to live chickens. There are reasons there are strong taboos about humans eating humans, and it goes for the rest of the animal world.  I've been told there needs to be at least 2 levels between, eg, Dead chicken fed to worms or Bl Soldier flies, worms or grubs then fed to fish, fish then fed to chickens.

3. Yes, the more roosters, the more crowing. They tend to compete and get each other going to it isn't a straight line increase either. I would think you would have to have a sound deadening night accommodation, because they will crow at any time of the night.  However, you may even find that you need to do things to break up the daytime noise as well. You don't have a property yet, but choose carefully where you set up the system, so the neighbors aren't overly bothered by the noise.  

So much information Josh, thank you again! The electric golf cart is incredibly smart, I wonder how long batteries last/ how replaceable batteries are, and how tinker-able those are for a more hilly landscape...

Aggressiveness is a definitely a pain point, and I imagine will be something I learn more about as I trial run a system. Jay brings up a great point about space and enrichment, and it makes me wonder about how much that plays into aggressiveness. I 100% understand that genetics play a role, I guess I'm more thinking out loud as it seems that rooster flocks aren't the most well-researched concept. While I am vegan, if push comes to shove, I'm willing to do what's best for the most animals whether that's separating or culling.

Sound is also tricky... inside a coop it shouldn't be too hard to dampen noise, but I'm not sure how that would work outside. Sound absorbent materials are porous, so they would quickly get damp/moldy which I don't think is desirable for me or the roosters. There might be some way to integrate it into the run fencing but I'd need to think that one out a bit more.

Z Winigrad wrote:So much information Josh, thank you again! The electric golf cart is incredibly smart, I wonder how long batteries last/ how replaceable batteries are, and how tinker-able those are for a more hilly landscape...

The batteries are very easily replaced but can be $800-$1000 for the set. They can last up to 10 years if taken care of but there are so many variables to that. I charge mine about every 3 weeks.

I put small knobby 4 wheeler tires on the back of mine and do not have any problems with traction.