After the Herbicides?

The local electric company decided to use herbicides under their power lines last year.

I went to town one day, and returned home to a very irate son and neighbor.  He had stopped them from spraying as soon as he was aware of what they were doing, but it was too late for a lot of my property.

It is difficult to stick to the point of my question here, as I am still very angry about this action. 

My question is this:  I have no reference in how to deal with the dead mess left in the wake of their herbicidal binge.  It is a dead dank nasty mess!  Do I put on gloves, and protective masks and clothing?  Do I cut it down, bag it, and put it in a landfill?  How do I get rid of this mess?

Can I still use the soil and simply replant the area?  Is that land ruined for who knows how long?  My garden is less than 6 feet from the site of the spraying.  I was so mad, so concerned about over spray!

I am filing a no spray request with them for the future, and putting up signs that say: NO SPRAY. 

Every time I look at what they have done, I get angry all over again, so I really need to get it gone so I can quit getting angry about it.  I just don't have a clue where to begin to clean up this toxic waste!

Government is complaint driven.  I think you need to call all of your elected officials and complain. 

I have a call in to the head of spraying at the Electric Company.  Of course, it is always, we will call you back!

I have 3 questions:
1.  What did they use?
2.  When will they be coming to clean this mess up?
3.  How do I get on the no spray list?

If I don't get reasonable answers to this, I am definitely going to protest more forcibly.
I took photos of the mess.  Wonder how that would look in the newspaper?

They sent people to spray who would not know a daffodil from a cactus... Just if it is under the line, spray it!  I am beside myself.  And it makes it worse, that I don't see this kind of disaster anywhere else as I drive along!  Just because I gave them right-of-way to cross my land, does not take away my ownership of the land, and I can use it, as long as I am not impeding their use of it... how about them impeding my use of my own land?

Post the photo here. Also send it to you paper and national ones they might not  publish your letter but they might read it and pass it on to the people who do articles on land and ecology in the paper, it might get them to write an article sooner or later . I write letters  to papers on the principle that i am, we all are a source of information for them, so telll them so they know, not because you want your letter published.
Paul stamets says that fungi break down the molecules of poisons, so put a lot of chips down and hope the right fungi turn up and start to break down the poisons. Paul Stamets  says that fungi grow where there is lot of mulch agri rose macaskie.

herbicides are nasty, for sure.  fortunately, some of the more popular varieties break down relatively quickly and end up harmless.  if you're lucky and they used glyphosate, for example, your dirt should recover just fine.

I don't know the ins and outs of the easement the utility has on your land, but you may have grounds to demand compensation.  if that's the case, don't go easy on them.

pardon my french but glyphosate HARMLESS???!!!

BULLSHIT

Why do you think everything is dieing in america? why are the frogs and the fish and the birds going away?
Why has the life in the water vanished since the time i was a pup til now a young adult (23)?

It's Roundup and the rise of Roundup Ready crops and that stuff IS toxic waste

I hope it wasn't wet when they sprayed and therefore the spray would not have penetrated the root system very much.



If i were you i would cut and burn or otherwise put it somewhere else where the land has been poisoned.


Want proof that it's toxic? Look no further to the "Eco friendly no-til" that is sweeping the united nation and check out their LIFELESS DEAD DIRT... where naught but the most noxious weeds can grow and thrive...
or try doing some real sleuthing and find out how 7 parts per million in water given to mice increased abortion rates 20%

I remember clearly some time in the 90's

there was this old swimming pool that was filled with frogs

FILLED

giant bullfrogs, 12 inches long

all kinds of tadpoles that i would raise that turned into all different kinds of frogs and salamanders

one day... it was filled with nothing but upside down dead frogs!!!

could have been something else besides toxic farm runoff? perhaps, but this was out in the middle of nowhere...

These were taken from my front door.  I own both sides of the driveway, and the land the other mobile is on.  I just happened to be taking photos of my new atrium and decided to get photos of this.  I don't have photos by the garden at this time, I will get them tomorrow.

The Electric company guy called me back.  It was roundup.
I asked when are they going to come clean up their mess.  He hemmed and hawwed.
I was insistant, so he is coming Wednesday to look it over, and discuss it with me.
Hey, not compensation, I am sure, but, inconvenient to them, just like it is inconvenient to me.

See the pretty elderberries on the left?  That was a tiny patch compared to the one they killed, there are also raspberries and blackberries next to them.
If you look close at the carnage, you will see dead grape vines, and rose bushes.  How were they hurting the power line?

I am definitely making some noise about this, whether it gets me any where or not.  I bet they won't let anyone spray my land again!

I don't think Tel was asserting that glyphosate is harmless. He was saying that soil eventually breaks it down in to harmless stuff. That's no reason to use the stuff, but it may mean compost from the dead vegetation is salvageable.

And as to why I think so many things are dying here, I agree that glyphosate is a big part of the problem, but there are a lot of other causes behind the effects you're alluding to. Your experience with the swimming pool might have been due to herbicide or even fertilizer, for example, but much of what is making frogs so scarce is nearly un-detectable long-lived endocrine disruptors, often halogenated hydrocarbons: very different stuff from glyphosate, and in my opinion a whole different category of badness.

asmileisthenewak47: glyphosate is certainly not harmless.  if that's what it sounded like I was implying, I'm sorry.

it is, however, broken down fairly rapidly by soil organisms.  of common herbicides, it is one of the least toxic.  I am certainly not defending the use of glyphosate, but there are much, much worse things that the utility company could have sprayed on this easement.

Ozark Lady: you might ask which formulation of Round-Up was used.  turns out the surfactants and other chemicals added can be rather more toxic than the active ingredient.  either way, your land will recover.  it's devastated right now, but things will spring back.

everyone else: let this be a lesson.  post no spray signs on any easements or rights-of-way on your land.

Also everyone, be alert.

The spraying issue was an opt out type thing.  In order to avoid being sprayed you had to actively refuse to be sprayed.

I did not read the "junk mail" enclosed with the electric bill.  And one of those "junk mail" things was the notification that they were going to spray, unless you got on the no spray list.

So, you have to be very careful to read even "junk mail".
My land will recover, I have 20 acres, so I have other options, just I am so annoyed to have this in my driveway, and have to see it daily!

When you post NO SPRAY signs, be sure to include other languages.  The crew here spraying did not speak english at all, and my son had difficulty getting them to stop.  Perhaps use a picture of a spray can with a red x through it?

Just take heed, learn from my mistake in not reading the "junk mail".  Don't let this happen to your land.  The more of us who band together to prevent this, the less this will happen.

Speaking of killing off the frogs.  I am uphill from a very beautiful lake, I have a seasonal view of it.  Where does the wash off go?  Downhill of course.  And how many other right-of-ways got sprayed between mine and the lake?  Do a google search of Beaverlake in Arkansas, it might even extend into Missouri, it does go through more than one county.  The overflow from it goes to Table Rock Lake in Branson Missouri.

I may post a sign on the highway... Protect our lake, get on the No Spray list!
What do y'all thing, should I become a "rabble rouser"?

Paul stamets says that fungi break down the molecules of poisons, so put a lot of chips down and hope the right fungi turn up and start to break down the poisons. Paul Stamets  says that fungi grow where there is lot of mulch agri rose macaskie.

I agree with Rose.  It might be possible to chip all the dead stuff in place and inoculate with the proper fungi and after a few months, problem solved.

I don't think you should call the party responsible.  I think you should go over their heads.  And over those heads.  And over those heads.  Complain to the county commissioners.

Go down to their offices.

Complain, complain, complain, complain, complain. 

As my dear sainted moma (dead these 6 years now) used to tell me; "Dont just complain about it, come up with a solution".

As for your problem Ozark Lady, putting up "no spray" signs and getting on the "no spray" list is a start, but please keep in mind that people are not perfect.  The spray crew works long days, mistakes get made, and finallyl, other people may not hold the same beliefs about herbicides as you do. 

As my moma would say, go to the source, find out why the Electric Co. needs to control the vegetation under their power lines, and start to affect change there. Then, from the why move on to the how, and be prepared to confront the biggie, the Elec. Co. has to control costs and because of what you get the Elec. Co to do costs go up and rates to the customers go up.  You become the bad guy. Good luck.

Gee, Hank, I could have sworn that is what I am doing in having a walk through with the head of the spraying.
We are looking for ways to not impede their use of the air space, nor my use of the ground space.

I think, my educating them on what they are killing and what animals and folks are dependant on it, goes alot farther than a price increase.  And I think that they need to educate the permies, and me, on exactly how we can help them to not need to cut or spray!

This is mutual here, we all live together and should work together.
And we share the same air, water and resources.  If they are polluting my drinking water to keep my electric costs down, do I care, if I get cancer and am dying from it, that my electric bill is at least $5.00 a month less?

I do understand costs, I do understand efficiency, but I also understand pollution, I also understand chemical induced toxic waste, I also understand bloom of algae on lakes and rivers that are becoming problematic.  The simplist and best answer is underground lines, but again costs enter into it.  So, we search for the next best answer... that does not pollute my air, water, or vegetation and does not increase their or my cost.

Oh, I could play ostrich, and let them do whatever they want, but it is my environment and my world too.  And I am sorry the dollar is not what this is all about in any direction.  The dollar will not keep me, you, or animals alive if we live in a cesspool of toxic waste. 

Isn't that what permaculture is all about?  Isn't it about preserving diversity, preserving life human and animal?  Isn't it about keeping things safe?

Okay, I accept the role of bad guy, if I can keep chemicals out of the ground, the groundwater and the lake and help just one person have a better quality of life, and I will pay the extra dollars to save lives, because it could well be my own.

I don't mean this as an attack, just I am very passionate about keeping the land, vegetation, air and water as pristine and pure as possible.

Not to worry, I dont take passion for attacking. 
Who knows, by talking with the "head of spraying" you might just be the catalyst he/she needs to get an "alternatives to spraying" program started at the electric co.

Hank

one time a company (i'm not allowed to mention their names or $ settlement) ..sprayed my property without my permission..and we found out when they left a bill on our door..we sued them..and won.

was worth the lawsuit..but doubt if you can sue the government

The electric company guy aplogized for what was sprayed, today on the phone.  But, he is transferring me to an arborist who works for them. 

And we had a long discussion about permanent no spray lists.  They don't honor no spray signs!  He said for now they will honor no spray requests, but might not in the future.  I got a bit heated, and told him, I would stop the spraying on my property if I must put cement under the power lines.  That I was not trying to be difficult, I am trying to get the electric company educated on what to spray and what not to spray, and to find a way to educate the public on what is good thing to do under the power lines.  But, make no mistake, I won't allow spraying on my property!
I told him, this is still my property, I still pay the taxes!, and we would see if I must live in a sprayed world.  Well, he backed down when he realized that I mean it.  And for now, we are in agreement that we need to work together, not fight this in court, but that is where it will go, if they dictate to me, that they will spray, no matter what I do!

This is not the government, this is the electric co-operative.  And I want to be cooperative, but I don't want to be sprayed.
I want my power lines safe, and my electric to flow well, I am reasonable, but I won't put up with spraying!

So, I may definitely be playing the bad guy here, before this is done.  I want to find out what they can do, and what I can do.  But, I will not be bullied!  I can be reasonable and logical, but don't push, that just gets my hackles up and reason and logic go by the wayside.

So, the soap opera of me versus the electric company sprayers continues.
But, if we don't stand up to corporations, we will be walked all over.
And yet, I am a member of the corporation, so I don't want costs higher.
I feel like David facing Goliath, and I hate confrontations, but I am not backing down.

WELL DONE!

Thank you for being noisy.

Here are my general thoughts on working on issues from the outside of our governments (this may be an overreaction to your situation… but its fodder for discussion)

I don't know the politics of where you live, but I think Paul W's comments are right on--if you don't get a response, don't bother getting too angry, just get dangerous and go up the chain of command.  Think about how to be scary... fire hazard of dead material... years of work or cost of replacement... words with legal implications like "injury to my private property, inadequate notification".  Angry people are a dime a dozen.  The goal is to appear dangerous.

Get clear in your mind exactly what you want them to do... Permanent signage provided to property owners upon request, written commitment to no future spraying based on signage, chip dead material to prepare site for replanting, future notifications are on red paper with the words "WARNING" with information on how people can opt out.  You provide them with the answer to the problem you are creating for them.

It is useful to know the timing of things... if they have a seasonal spray program; you want to hit them before they mobilize.

It is useful to understand where there budget comes from and when it is reviewed, and who reviews it.  If you want to be dangerous, understand the sources of budgets.  Your utility likely has a board of directors--some of which may be more sensitive than others.  One inside ally is worth a lot.  A whole program can be gutted with the flash of the right angry pen.  Government can be belligerent on its face, but programs are weak.

You want to engage elected officials--they have greater incentive to listen--and despite the corporate mauling we are experiencing we still live in a society of 'soverign people'.  You are not weak, you are not alone.

Find allies in local NGOs that are already lobbying in your jurisdiction, and help them build networks of likeminded people.  Audubon society does a lot of work around here.

In general, generalizing about the evils of government is not very productive.  The alternative to government is unconstrained corporate rule.  Instead, exercise control over  government, and redirect it toward useful actions.

It might be a nice idea to come up with some alternatives?Around here that means a loud oil driping exaust beltching machine.I think they are maintaining the lines to get cheap electricity to places.I boycotted the company and have since recieved no bills or spray.Of course im writing this by the glow of a candle but Im not sure if we can have a non toxic industrial society(have our cake and eat it too)

Thanks folks,
Excellent points Paul.  I like it, instead of just being an issue, be a problem solver!  Cool!

I have spent more of the last 30 years living without electricity than with it.
We were totally off the grid, our home paid for etc. for 10 years, but jobs grew scarce, and even with few bills, and place paid for, with a growing family you need income.  So, we moved, and honestly proximity to power was never an issue.  If we got power fine, if not, oh well.  I informed the head of spraying that to me electricity is a convenience, not a necessity!  And told him, check your records, I have lived here for going on 16 years, I have had electricity for less than 8 of those 16 years.  Anyhow, I said "since I am  someone who views electricity as a convenience not a necessity, you don't want to push me." (This whole section of the road had no power lines run down it, it wasn't a war, it just wasn't available)

The guy at the electric company should really be glad that I am the one he is talking to and not my husband.  My husband is less diplomatic, but just as determined that they will not spray on our property.  So, I do have support there.  I also have a neighbor who is into the pure water, pure land side of the issue, and I know she will be able to get me the facts and paperwork on the spraying in such close proximity to the lake.  But, she is less diplomatic also, so I need the input, but I am the more reasonable one.  I don't yell when I get annoyed, I will get quiet, or I will simply state the facts with a no nonsense approach.

Hey the speed limit on this road was 30mph which is ridiculous out in the country.  I obeyed it, but I got a petition up and with so many signatures, it is now 45 mph which is alot more reasonable.  It is over 10 miles long, and has sharp curves, that needed marking, and needed to be 30mph, but not the entire length of it.  My vendetta there, worked out.  But, I even had to get the police to drive it and decide if 45 was reasonable or not.  It was.

I hate confrontations, but wrong is wrong, and the noisy wheel gets the oil!
squeak, squeak

ask them why not a opt in program rather than an opt out one,
that way they would have people who really wanted the crap sprayed on the list,

and usually a utility is not a governmental agency,

Okay, walk through is accomplished.

I am getting a full crew to cut and remove all the mess.  It will be chipped up and removed.  And I will be on a permanent no spray list!

They were wrong to kill elderberries, black berries, and raspberries.  And the trees they sprayed were too large to just spray and go.  They should have called in a cutting crew in the first place!

I told them, this is not my mess.  If it were green, I could cut it and feed it to my goats, but not like this.  And the thorns are worse on dead brush than on green plants.
I don't feel that it is fair to expect me to spend hours cleaning, bagging, hauling and paying for disposal.  They agreed.

They also said that right of way and easement is two different things.  I pointed out, I could be nasty and make them move their lines to the edge of my property, not down the driveway.  It is still my land, and I can still give access to the houses behind me, without having power lines in my front yard!  I am right!  With a right of way, they own the land and can dictate how things go.  I did not give that, I gave them an easement.  Which is a limited use of the land.  The bottom 8 feet are still mine, as long as I am not blocking their access to their equipment.  They can service the lines from the driveway, so what I plant under the lines is not relevant as long as it does not touch them.

The gentleman was a really nice, and knowledgeable person, and he understood that I was unhappy and with reason to be unhappy.

He even told me to plant my elderberries back there!  They are legal!  So, when I do, I will put up a sign under them:  Elderberries, do not cut! ha ha

Guess who has been here the last 2 days?



It isn't perfect, but it is alot better than before.  They took out two complete truck loads of chipped up mess!  That is a big truck, imagine what it would have cost me to pay to have it put into a landfill.

So, the electric company stood by their word and got the mess mostly cleaned up.  There is some odd and ends, but with the truck full, it doesn't make sense to make another trip for the little bit that wouldn't fit in the truck.  I can live with it, maybe 2 bags of stuff.

I feel mean, but I bet they have notes not to spray my property again!  And I will call them to make sure that I don't get sprayed again!  They prefer to spray, just before natural leaf drop, so that the sap drops down on cool nights and kills the roots too.  JFYI

I didn't catch what they sprayed with, but agree with TAL, Glyphosate is best, but I suspect that they would be more likely to use 2,4-D. Is the grass dead too? If It's 2,4-D it is potentially farm more harmful to males who plan on reproducing in the future, if it's glyphosate then low exposure isn't going to hurt any mammal, and it will break down in the next few weeks or months as it percolates through the soil. One of the things about herbicides is that by in large they need to break down fairly rapidly to be marketable; farmers use most of them and if they kill everything forever then the farmer cannot farm.

In response to what asmile said, there are a lot of things that are done that lead to the damage you were talking about, Roundup and several different insecticides will kill frogs that they come in contact with in fairly high concentrations but they are only the start.  Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis is a fungus that  has killed many frog populations, spread by the use of Xenopus frogs in labs (used to be the only pregnancy test), Ranavirus, Trematodes (cause the multiple legged frogs that everyone thought were caused by agricultural and industrial chemical runoff) and the list goes on and on.

The cancer risk from exposure to plants that have been sprayed (and are now dry) is probably lower than the cancer risk from eating one weeks worth of meals cooked over a wood fire.

OL--our county road gets sprayed  every few years, and bushwhacked about every five. The roadside vegetation looks similar to the density of yours. SOunds like similar species. I dont' know what they use to spray, but really, it has no real lasting effect on the vegetation. The bushwhacking works better, of course. But really they are spraying to control the herby weeds, and the spray path is about 3 feet high. It is up to the land owner to post their land and file with the county(which is common knowledge) AND do the required upkeep--if they don't then it gets sprayed. They do spray after most of the wildflowers have blooms and they return each year.

I don't know of the effects of runoff, but things are very meandering so there is a lot of "filtering".

That is weird that it appears they sprayed along your driveway, they only spray major roads around here.

I think you're were a little hasty with the cutting and chipping. The spray used here seems to be a defoliator, and doesn't kill the shrubs. I don't know what was used on your land, but it would have been good to find out what exactly the spray did--maybe you cut down perfectly good stuff that will leaf back out next year?

I live up off a windy road too (called Peavine, guess why). I WISH the speed limit was 30mph.

ANd those innocent litle giant bullfrogs? here they are invansive noxious species devouring the native frogs, baby turtles and bird eggs. It's always a good day for them to die

haven't got a lot to say but that from what i have seen said online many times and there also was a litgation case about it glypho' is in the soil more than 12 months, so it is no less dangerouse than any other spray application that we all abhore.

the electricity people in this case as is over here are taking the easy way out to manage growths under thier power corridore, instead of more manual applicataiopn of slashing it which of course might add the power bill?

bloke over here lives on the catchment of a drinking water dam, and the local council department like to come and jsut blanket spray for weeds which of course the drift overpsray ends up in the dam anyway, well he has put a stop to it one thing he did was get visible and order the blokes to stop spraying, so with what he did after that they no longer come to spray anywhere near his property.

see your local politition, and if you are able try to control the growth so they have no need to spray, maybe a couple of times a year get a bloke with a tractor slasher in and knock it down, they may dislpay some reluctancy to bring machinery onto you propety for fear of litagtion, talk is the way to go,
just an idea.

len

Well Len you are in the [s]north[/s] far south down under, she is in the Ozarks. Glyphosate breaks down faster in warm areas. Also the spray levels used by the power company will be lower than those used for RU crops.

Edited to fix location, had you confused with someone else from Gardenweb, sorry Len

Quite a cocktail they used:
Tordon: active ingredient: Picloram
Dupont Escort XP I don't see the active ingredient on that one.
Dupont Krenite S brush control still don't see the active ingredient.
Arsenal: active ingredient is imazapyr  : it gives superior long term control!
There is more booklets of junk.

I have requested the spray logs of the day they sprayed it, to know the exact items used.

The electric company arborist himself, told me not to attempt to grow anything there for 1 full year! 

I know nothing about herbicides nor pesticides, I don't want to use them, nor have them on my property.

I have already mentioned that I should have kept the black locust cut, it just got away from me while I was working, and didn't notice.  I will definitely make sure that never happens again. 

This was my wake up call... I thought out in the country, I was "safe" from my neighbor spraying his yard... well, my neighbor is too far away to see, but I still had toxins on my land.  And my vegetable garden is downhill from it!

Folks if you don't want toxins on your land, even if you are rural, you really must make sure that the vegetation can not be considered to threaten the power lines.  There is no county opt out, there is nothing I can do, but keep calling them, and be sure to get added to the no spray annual list.  It is a new list each year!

If I have to, I will haul gravel, pour concrete, whatever it takes to prevent this from ever happening again!  I am determined.. organic all the way, no herbicides, no pesticides!

similar experience when a company sprayed our propety by mistake..but i did sue..it was horrible..they sprayed several acres of my lawn and gardens

Acres?  Oh man, and I blew my top over a few feet down the driveway.  Acres? OMG  I am so sorry for you.

The electric company was back today, to look and see if I wanted anything else removed, so I had them go ahead and take out some trees, that were not sprayed, but were leaning towards the power line, and were within the 10 feet range that I am not to cut in.  These trees would have come down on the power line with the very next ice storm anyhow.

So, they are working hard to set things right.  I find that encouraging.  They can't undo the damage done, but, I will accept the work as an acceptible apology.  And I will choose to believe that they will re-educate the spraying crews and remind them what is good and what is not good!

The key is that most government offices are complaint driven.  And government officials want the complaints to go away.  If you have about three minutes to lodge your complaint, I think that is a good time to share the MSDS for which pesticide you guess might be used (because you don't trust the "poison mongers" to be honest). 

And, as much as I would like to say that logic and reason rules the day, that is definitely not true in the world of politics.  Hysterical crazy talk often has more weight. 

yes over 3 acres..it was a "lawn care company" that "said that they were hired to spray our property"

they  had the address wrong and sprayed while we were gone..they sprayed a spray to keep weeds out of lawn, on our entire property..no worry about drift onto my thousands of perennials or food crops..destroyed nearly my entire property other than the rear woods.

this was many many years ago, we had to replant everything but the trees and a few edge perennials that were beyond the spray.

we hadn't ordered it, when we got home and saw the "BILL" stuck on our door, we were furious and immediately called them and complained..but it wasn't until a few days later we saw the extent of the damage when everything but the grass in the lawn that wasn't wild, began to die..most of our lawns were wild grasses, so even they died off..as well as all of our herbs, perennials and some shrubs..

i walked around with a camera for days, documentinig the wildlings and boughten plants that they had killed..and then i sued.

they settled out of court and i'm not allowed to mention their name, or the $ of the settlement..but i can honeswtly say, it wasn't enough money for all the suffering we went through and plants we lost

Here is my list of effective complaining.

E-mails followed by written letters to elected officials. E-mails have become so easy they are often just given cursory views.

Not only elected officials but department heads and any Committees populated by unelected residents that have anything to do with the subject.
 
To insure an e-mail is given more than the cursory view CC to a newspaper or some type of press. This can be problematic though when you become the mouthpiece for an area and the press comes to you.

Follow up telephone conversation with an e-mail that confirms what was said.  Oregon is pretty restrictive as far as insuring a transparent form of government and an information  request can be a valuable tool. A confirmation via e-mail establishes a record of the occurence.

In addition to CC'ing the press any environmental group or sporting organization that could be affected by a particular problem. Two divergent groups concerned about a particular problem adds weight to the issue.

What are the alternatives?  Suggested alternatives.

Are the children safe?  A very powerful and important question.

Who is the Risk Managment person for the company/county/city or insuring agent.

Cost benefit figures?

Be persistent and civil and always concerned for a better/safer way.