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my first time indigo dye project with japanese indigo/dyers knotweed (Persicaria tinctoria)

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May, todays the day I finally began the dye project following your instructions!

My pots of indigo look ok although I've let them wilt several times over the summer and just today I noticed that 'something' probably our fearless groundhog, nibbled the tips out of a few stalks....time to harvest!

I picked 20 grams of tips so submerged in 700ml of water plus ~~100ml~~ 20ml white vinegar.

I love using my grandpa's balancing scale...his weights were ounces and drams but no grams so I found years ago that pennies from 1982 were just right for measuring grams as one penny weighs 2.5 grams and easily scales up from there.
The leaves weighed 16 pennies, so 40g.

I submerged the leaves at 2pm so tomorrow afternoon I drain the leaves and rinse with 100ml water....Do I save the drained water or the rinse water?
I'm confused as to which liquid I then whip or beat with an electric stirrer? including the leaves? reread and see that I use all of the drained off liquid for the next step, including the rinse.
I knew I would have questions once I began😊

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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posted 3 weeks ago

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besides the written instructions I'm referring to these posts with pictures😊
https://permies.com/t/120/37159/dyeing/Indigo-blue-growing-harvesting-processing#3460834

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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posted 3 weeks ago

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18 hours around 70F....give or take a few degrees.

I am not good at describing smells, definitely not rotten smelling...closer to cooked greens maybe?

nothing on surface...

will leave for a few more hours and figure out my drill with whisk set up. Hoping that wil aerate without flinging it all over the kitchen?
For such a small amount I think I could pour back and forth jar to jar?

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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posted 3 weeks ago

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Looking good. I would pour the water out so it has highly pure indigo. Bruised leaves let out all kinds of non-specific stuffs that might interfere with later steps. The solution is mainly reduced so you can't see oxidized flim on top. It's easier to just pour back and forth with a small volumn like this. Forget the mention that when you do the calcium precipitation, do it in a titration mode, i.e. adding drops of concentrated solution and observe the changes. Once you see phase separation just stop adding, stir gently, and let it settle for a few hours. With the clear glass you would be able to see dark blue sediments and water is light green.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

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Judith Browning

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posted 3 weeks ago

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thanks May!
I strained it off and rinsed the leaves with 100ml water into a widemouth quart (3\4 full) and added the washing soda.
we took turns for 10 minutes pouring back and forth until dark blue.
Does it look dark enough?
I've poured it back in the vase to oxidize for three hours at 10:45am.

Are you straining through cloth after oxidation? coffee filters?

What do I dissolve the calcium in before adding...water or vinegar?

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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The color is right. Yes, I would filter at this step to get rid of small debris. Have calcium in water ready. Sometimes the precipitation has other impurities and clumpy that you can use plain weave cotton for filtering, resulting in something pudding like. I find it tends to get moldy and stinky if not stored in fridge or dried down. If purity is high, the precipitation would be fine grits that needs small pore size like coffee filter. You will find out soon.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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I corrected a mistake above where I said 100ml white vinegar...I used 20ml.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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filtered out small debris and have added dissolved calcium.
I am barely seeing some clearing of the surface half inch or so....thought it would be more dramatic so am not sure I added enough? total was a quarter teaspoon....that is much more than 1\10th of the amount of washing soda.

oops...I didn't wait 3 hours.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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If the water is still very blue, you can take a couple spoonful out and test how much more is needed. Just that you will have more calcium carbonate in the precipitation, which can be dissolved in the last step. Or just wait longer, sometimes I leave it overnight.

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Judith Browning

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I removed a couple tbs and it looked much clearer than it appeared through the glass.
Will leave overnight.

Thank you for all of your help and guidance May!
I've needed something new in a different direction than my routine and now am eyeing spots for next years indigo patch!

I'll post a photo in the morning and hopefully it will have settled out nicely by then.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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I had to check...impatient I guess😊

It was looking so dark I decided to shine a light through it and now I can see particles settled on the bottom and some suspended that will should settle by tomorrow?

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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first photo at 6am this morning.

I poured off most of the clear liquid into one jar and poured the rest through a paper filter into a second jar.

Some pigment filtered out but the rest appears to have dissolved back into the liquid as it is quite blue again and almost opaque.

My impatient self then added the left over dissolved calcium that I did not use yesterday, gave it a stir and now see some pigment settling out again.

I'm afraid to rinse the pigment that I do have in the filter for fear it will all dissolve.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Stina May

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I've got to ask, what is the scientific name of the plant here? I don't see it mentioned in the thread.

Every concept I have of Indigo involves members of the Legume family (or Brassicas for "woad"), with true "Indigo" as I understand it being Indigofera tinctoria L., i.e.:

...which your plant clearly is not.

So now I'm very curious. What is it?

(the vats look amazing btw)

"Gardening is eleven months' hard work and one month's acute disappointment." - John Heathcoat-Amory

May Lotito

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I would rinse with water to get rid of salt, then 5% vinegar to dissolve excess CaCO3, then water again. You can go on with a small dyeing project in the jar. Or let it air dry and ground up the powder. It takes a lot of materials for large project.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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Stina May wrote:I've got to ask, what is the scientific name of the plant here? I don't see it mentioned in the thread.

Every concept I have of Indigo involves members of the Legume family (or Brassicas for "woad"), with true "Indigo" as I understand it being Indigofera tinctoria L., i.e.:

...which your plant clearly is not.

So now I'm very curious. What is it?

(the vats look amazing btw)

Hi Stina😊I should have mentioned that from the beginning!
I think I'm correct in saying it's Japanese Indigo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persicaria_tinctoria
also called dyers knotweed, chinese indigo.
My seed is from May.L.
Here's a link to the big Indigo thread and one for the big woad thread
https://permies.com/t/37159/dyeing/Indigo-blue-growing-harvesting-processing
https://permies.com/t/76750/dyeing/Woad-growing-harvesting-dyeing

I grew indigofera tinctoria years ago and the deer ate the plants so never had a chance to try using it.

It would be great if you can share your natural dye experiences here!

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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posted 3 weeks ago

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May, I think my rinsing is dissolving the pigment...I didn't expect much and have been enjoying rhe process....happy to see some lovely blue come out of those leaves even if I don't have a hold of it yet.

I have a well worn linen hankie I might immerse in the jar in the end and see if I get a little blue.

Now I'm excited to try again so will keep watering the plants in hopes they have time to branch a bit and have more tips to harvest.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Stina May

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Judith Browning wrote:I think I'm correct in saying it's Japanese Indigo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persicaria_tinctoria
also called dyers knotweed, chinese indigo.
[...]
I grew indigo tinctoria years ago and the deer ate the plants so never had a chance to try using it.
It would be great if you can share your natural dye experiences here!

Thank you, I did some googling and wondered if it might be that. It looks so leafy and easy compared with true Indigo! Makes me wonder if I could grow that species where I am. I once managed several bushes of Indigofera at a place I worked in Wales, and they were never very happy there. No deer, but too wet I imagine, so they were very sparse on foliage and rarely tried to flower. I never did manage to use any. At least Persicaria usually has no problem with rain!

My dyeing experience has been mostly with Woad (Isatis tinctoria), particularly Woad Balls, which is an old method of preserving the leaves in a way that helps ferment them at point of use to release more of the pigment. It's very many years since I did it, and never on any kind of scale, but I did love the process. I also particularly love the Woad shade of blue, which is slightly different to that of true indigo. It varies, but it often has a touch of ultramarine in it. Really beautiful.

Edit: formatting

"Gardening is eleven months' hard work and one month's acute disappointment." - John Heathcoat-Amory

May Lotito

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Judith, you can resuspend the pigments in a container of water. They will sink to the bottom, then pour off excess liquid. I took a pinch of the indigo powder I prepared a few days ago to test some shibori design quickly. I had to use a strong reducer this time since the volumn is so small. Traditionally alcohol from fermentation is the reducer in a deep vat. Last year I tried culturing indigo leaves in alkaline solution but couldn't get any spontaneous fermentation. I will try sukumo again, but I guess I need to buy the inoculants.

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Judith Browning

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your sample shibori is beautiful!

I'm stumped at the moment.
I have a jar of bluish liquid (from straining) that is not settling.
I do have a trace of nice pigment on a coffee filter that shows me the possibilities...I've dried and labeled for future reference....enough to make me want to grow a big patch next year!

I'm at a point where I realize there's too much I don't know about indigo dyeing....so am not even sure what questions to ask🙄

On the side I think I might have lost my chinese woad (isatis indigotica)
It has grown and gone to seed for years now and popped up different places in the garden with out any effort on my part.
Looking for it yesterday all I found was bermuda grass.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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Here's a small cotton muslin piece I soaked in the liquid to use up last bit of blue.
Have learned so much by finally 'doing'.

I'm eyeing the leaves left on the plants and thinking of a slightly larger batch using the same methods in a few days and then using one of the reduction methods Rita Buchanan mentions in A Weaver's Garden'.
Probably chopped raisins or dates.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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Here are videos showing two different traditional ways of making indigo dye from P. tincoria with some simple explanation of the mechanism.

The Japanese awa-indigo use fresh green leaves. The chopping and bruising disrupt celluar compartments and the indigo precursor reacts to enzyme and oxidizes internally. After oxidative decomposition similar to hot composting, part of the plant tissues break down and gases off, the volume reduces. The residues then undergo anaerobic fermentation in alkaline solution. Metabolism from bacteria provides reducing power and releases indigo from insoluble complex into the liquid for dyeing.

Liziqi's "life of the bluegrass"

This is the traditional Chinese way. Older plants are harvested and soaked in water to partly break down plant tissues. Indigo precursor and enzyme are released and the resulting indigo remains largely in the soluble reduced form. It then is oxidized by aeration and precipitated by calcium (quick lime or hydrated lime). The blue mud or paste is retrieved and stored. Reducing power comes from rice wine culture. Various fungi break down starch to sugar and ferment it into alcohol as the reducer.

From my experience, if green leaves are soaked anaerobically too long, the indigo binds to chlorophyll and probably other hydrophobic molecules as well. The precipitation is not as pure and has a green tint. Those impurities make subsequent reduction and solublization difficult. So what I have experimented is to find the sweet spot of leaching condition in which there are maximum indigo precursor, some enzymes, and minimum chloroplast. Then I proceed to use common household chemicals and utensils to extract the pure indigo. It can be an overkill for simple dye project but it's fun.

I have no experience with the legume Indigofera. tincoria as it needs warmer climate to grow. It seems the extraction is much simpler with this plant. Oxidized indigo just associates with the foam on top of the water in large quantities, making collecting easy. I guess it contains higher surfactant than other indigo plants.

Traditional woad processing is somewhat similar to sukumo. Woad leaves are kneaded and balled for slow fermentation. I still can't find the way the extract indigo from fresh leaves. Maybe the yield is just too low.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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here we go again😊

I have three pots of dyer's knotweed/japanese indigo plants...really too crowded. I had planned to set them out but the drought happened so they stayed in pots I could more easily water.
This round I cut stems and plucked all of the leaves from one pot of plants and that amounted to 50 grams so used about 800 ml tap water and 2 tablespoons white vinegar and weighted with a glass frog at 12:30pm.
I intended to follow your guidelines again May but I've already wandered a little as is my usual approach....not sure the leaves will have much color as some were very small and young.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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checking for color at 15 hours and there was none!
I realized that the weather was much cooler than my first attempt so set the jar with a plate on top in the dehydrator set at 105F (where I have it for yogurt) and in just 3 hours there is some green color to the water....will leave awhile longer as the smell seems ok.

I've replaced my photo here with a better one....the light shining through it shows the color better.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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8am, 20 hours.
used dehydrator for last 3 or 4 hours (at 105F turned down to 95F) because the house was cool last night and there was no color visible at 4am.

strained at 8am,
added small amounts of the 2 grams measure of washing soda until blue while pouring from jar to jar for 12 minutes....used the full 2 grams.

8:30am....will let oxidize now until 11:30am.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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added small amount of dissolved calcium, stirred gently.
(1/4 teaspoon dissolved in 1 Tablespoon water) I added three 1/4 teaspoons of dissolved to vat.. so that would be 1/8 teaspoon of dry calcium used? probably a little less because my Tbs of water was a 'bit' more 🙄
.....gonna go mow now so I ignore for awhile😊

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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and an hour later....

IMG_20260923_123408_158-2.jpg

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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Good to see the procedure repeated well. It seems to settle much faster this time. Just pour carefully as much top water off as possible. If the sediment is disturbed, keep the jar tilted and let it settle before pouring or sucking with a syringe again. Resuspend in the same jar with water instead of going through a filter.

The advantage of using younger shoots is that the more you pinch the tops, the more side shoots are sprouting. Just like cultivating and harvesting leaves from a tea bush. That way the plants can be harvested several times in a year, less risky than one big extraction at the end of the season. The leaves after soaking can be safely put back to the soil and feed the plants since no harsh chemicals are added.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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May, It is settling faster but I don't know why?
I think I probably used a little less calcium if anything.

Resuspend in the same jar with water instead of going through a filter.

and then go through a filter? or do you mean soon and then let it settle again and then filter?
At the moment I'm fine with saving up dry pigment since I've got nothing particular to dye.

EDIT: I did let it oxidate (after aerating 12 minutes) for the full three hours this time...would that have made some difference in how quick it precipitates?

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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after four hours I thought the liquid looked clear enough so I'm straining out the pigment.

photo taken in the window so liquid has some reflections and background.

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Judith Browning

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third batch...following May's guidelines while I'm learning.

This time the blue seems more opaque after aerating...I used slightly more leaves to water, slightly less washing soda and 15 minutes aerating rather than 10 since I was pouring jar to jar and thought that wasn't adding as much air as a whisk or electric beater would.
About to add dissolved calcium.

Next year...will plant early and will just pinch tips....and I'll need some larger vats and a whisk on my electric drill...........

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"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

May Lotito

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For fellow permies interested in this thread, I am working on simplifying the steps and coming up with some demonstration pictures. There are a few things to watch out for and each batch can vary. The numbers are not fixed. I will post on the main thread some time next week.

Zone 6, 45 inches precipitation, hard clay soil

Judith Browning

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Follow May's excellent techniques and guidelines
HERE

Dyeing with indigo has been something I've wanted to do for years and May's guidelines and tips opened the door to finally try😊

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Thekla McDaniels

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Judith Brown I once managed several bushes of [i wrote:Indigofera [/i]at a place I worked in Wales, and they were never very happy there. No deer, but too wet I imagine, so they were very sparse on foliage and rarely tried to flower. I never did manage to use any. At least Persicaria usually has no problem with rain

I might have clipped the quote to the wrong writer, if so, sorry. It’s kind of tricky.

I wanted to comment on the rain situation. A person could make an herb spiral to raise the plant up out of too wet soil conditions. It would also warm the roots if that’s contributing to the problem for the plant. And if the plant wants brighter light, reflectors might help.

I know that’s a lot of trouble to go to, to grow a plant that’s not happy in the local environment, but 🤷🏻‍♀️ there are some plants worth working that hard for! Like a dye plant! Blue is blue after all.

Best luck: satisfaction

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Judith Browning

Posts: 10823

Location: a temperate, clay/loam spot on planet earth, the universe

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posted 2 days ago

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Thekla, that was Stina May's comment that you quoted, not mine😊

One of the reasons to grow japanese indigo rather than Indigofera tinctoria is because it is easier to grow in a shorter season and quite prolific if pinching tips as May suggests..
I did have to water frequently during our drought and the plants would probably love rainier weather.
I'm sure there are subtle differences in the blues produced although I'm very pleased with my results.

I do plan to grow a larger space next year and will have water available.

"We're all just walking each other home." -Ram Dass
"Be a lamp, or a lifeboat, or a ladder."-Rumi
"It's all one song!" -Neil Young

Thekla McDaniels

gardener

Posts: 3961

Location: Western Slope Colorado.

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posted 1 day ago

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Yeah, I did make a mess of that quote…

I wanted to add that there are lavender growers in the Pacific Northwest that cover the ground beneath and around their lavender plants with oyster shell, to reflect the light.

I thought that was an ingenious strategy.

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