Socks Socks Socks!! Is there such a thing as Permies socks?

Kevin Olson wrote:Steve -

I bought my wife both merino wool and silk longies.  She wears the silk more than the wool.  If really cold, then wool over silk.

My point is that you may be able to find "leggings" that fit better and are more insulative than whatever synthetic materials are commonly found in "leggings".

However, if swiping your wife's leggings is working for you, who am I to knock it?  If your wife is anything like mine, she swipes your clothes, too, so turnabout is fair play!

On my list of projects is to make a pair of long-handled string underwear - fishnets, more or less.  Short johns (just below knee length) for the bottoms, so that I don't get alligator skin in ski boots or high pack boots (tall socks keep calves warm).  These were standard at one time with polar explorer types, and are still standard among Scandinavian military troops.  The US Army now has a multilayer shirt with a fishnet inner, and a knitted wool outer, in a single garment.  What was old is new again.  Projects, projects...

Kevin

When I was working on the railroad in Montana where it does not get anywhere near as cold as Maine, I had a railroad foreman who was a man’s-man, married and all that, but told everyone on the crew that the best way to stay warm was to “ go out and buy pantyhose”. He was not joking and swore by it, but I never could.

Just my luck I would get into some industrial accident and have some hard explaining to do to ever get my man-card back.

I have since heard football players and other people who are out in the cold do that as they do not bulk up under their outer clothes but keeps you warm, but even as adamant as my old foreman was, I could never go that route.

Leggings work for me quite well enough without resorting to hosiery😀

When I was working on the railroad in Montana where it does not get anywhere near as cold as Maine, I had a railroad foreman who was a man’s-man, married and all that, but told everyone on the crew that the best way to stay warm was to “ go out and buy pantyhose”. He was not joking and swore by it, but I never could.

What a timely story! I was talking with my wife and two female friends of the family about keeping warm on a cold night for a parade that was in town. My wife was talking about wearing leggings under her jeans to keep warm at the sacrifice of mobility and was recommended that pantyhose would keep her warm AND flexible.

I don't know if I'm going to run out and try it, but if it works it works.

Today I got an email about a special deal on SmartWool socks at MEC.  The page for SmartWool products at Mountain Equipment Company has some information at the bottom that I quote below.  I don't expect any links to have copied properly, but these products are all based around merino wool and SmartWool is working with their farmer suppliers toward regenerative practices.  Of course, regenerative has potentially somewhat turned into a buzzword that some may be striving to jump onto the bandwagon.  I haven't done any research, just thought the email was timely and it may be close to what the original poster is after.  MEC stands behind what they sell and so look for quality products.  I can't speak at all to how they stand up, but they do have quite a variety of sock styles.

High-tech Smartwool socks and clothing at MEC

In 1994 two New Zealand ski instructors in were looking for a better pair of socks to keep their toes warm. They started experimenting and realized that merino wool ski socks were the secret to keeping their feet toasty, dry and comfortable throughout days on the slopes. Now, decades later, you’ll find a full range of socks, base layers and clothing made of merino wool and high-tech wool blends available at MEC.

What’s the big deal about merino wool? It keeps you warm, even when it’s wet. It’s naturally odour-resistant, so you can wear it multiple days in a row. It’s natural and renewable too, one sheep can grow up to five pounds of wool a year. It’s also soft and not itchy, plus Smartwool flatlock seams eliminate chafing.
Socks for runners, skiers and hikers

They may have been born on the ski hill, but Smartwool socks now come in designs for trail running, hiking and other outdoor pursuits. Synthetic fibres improve durability, while fun patterns and colours add a little flare to time outside.
Base layers and merino wool underwear

Smartwool clothing layers for women and layers for men are available in different weights, so you can dress for varying temperatures and activity levels. Light and ultralight materials work for cool weather, either alone or layered. Heavier weight pieces are perfect for ski touring, mountaineering and backpacking as well as high-output snowshoeing and Nordic skiing. You’ll find standard sizes at MEC (Smartwool fits true to size) as well as some styles in plus sizes for women up to 4X and XXL for men.
Washing and caring for merino socks, T-shirts and underwear

To keep your socks or clothing at their best, turn them inside out before you wash them. Use cold water and a washing machine on a gentle cycle. Avoid using fabric softeners or bleach, and dry items at low heat or air dry them to prevent shrinkage.
Sustainable production and regenerative wool

Smartwool partners with New Zealand Merino Company to improve sheep-farming practices. Their partner-growers work to sequester carbon, use regenerative materials and improve the biodiversity of their farmed lands. Smartwool supports Protect Our Winters to fight climate change and is committed to lowering their carbon footprint and contributing to a healthier planet.
Smartwool guarantee

Made with attention to comfort, fit and durability, Smartwool stands behind all their products. If, for any reason, you aren’t completely happy with your Smartwool gear within two years of purchasing (through an authorized dealer in Canada and the US), you can use their return process to make a claim for replacement.

Steve, its funny that you mention the pantyhose-as-a-thermal layer.

My first job after I graduated with my first college degree was working in a management program with a drug store.  Since I was being trained as a manager, I needed to be educated in each of the various departments, with each department training lasting one to two weeks.

One of the departments I was trained on was cosmetology.  And right there I thought I was going to loose my man-card forever.  I learned vast amounts of stuff about makeup (that I have long-forgotten, probably having only remembered it for under 5 minutes), but one bit of trivia that stuck was about pantyhose.  My trainer (a wonderful older woman) was explaining the various designs details about pantyhose and included the fact that she knew of many construction workers who would come in during the cooler months and buy pantyhose as a sort of make-shift pair of long underwear.  This did stick in my mind as when I get cold, It will be in the legs and feet.  I actually gave the pantyhose-as-long-underwear a thought or two but, like you Steve, I thought I would lose my man-card forever.  I just couldn’t do it.  Instead, I ended up getting some long underwear from a Cabella’s catalog.  They were very warm.

Eric

Steve,

I just read your earlier post about leggings-as-thermal-underwear.  As I mentioned above, I get cold in my legs first.  I also took to heart back in college a warning that some of my friends who were **SUPER** into mountain climbing told me—Cotton Kills.  The way they explained to me was that cotton went from being too warm to too wet to too cold too quickly.  Basically, if you exerted even just a little effort while layered up, the cotton would make you warm and you would sweat which would then get soaked up in the cotton layer at which point the cotton went from being a thermal insulator to a thermal conductor and one could get hypothermia very easily.  Some of those guys took the aversion to cotton to mean the didn’t wear **ANYTHING** cotton, including underwear.  As this was the early 90s, their options were limited but they got creative.  I will leave it at that.

My takeaway was that I don’t think I would ever use sweatpants under jeans as a thermal layer as you mentioned above.  Now I did not grow up in Maine, but Central Illinois is no stranger to very cold temperatures and high winds.  Seems like every winter we would get at least two days with temperatures at -20 or lower.  And when I was in college (second time), I did a lot of work outside in the winter and learned just how to layer up for extreme cold.  FYI, my first layer was just a cheap pair of wind pants simply to stop wind from penetrating.  It’s amazing what that alone did.

Eric

Eric Hanson wrote:My takeaway was that I don’t think I would ever use sweatpants under jeans as a thermal layer as you mentioned above.  Now I did not grow up in Maine, but Central Illinois is no stranger to very cold temperatures and high winds.  Seems like every winter we would get at least two days with temperatures at -20 or lower.  And when I was in college (second time), I did a lot of work outside in the winter and learned just how to layer up for extreme cold.  FYI, my first layer was just a cheap pair of wind pants simply to stop wind from penetrating.  It’s amazing what that alone did.

I remember using wind pants walking to university in Saskatoon (I'll take your Illinois cold temperature and double it ;-) ) - there were some days that winter where it was about -40 C and I had a stretch walking in the open where there was always some wind.  I also learned at a young age to make my own head - walk faster.  There have been times where you'd have been hard-pressed to find any exposed skin on me.

Derek, you got me on the cold!  I am afraid that the coldest I ever experienced was about—35F, and that was in Minnesota at my grandparents farm.

But I wholeheartedly agree that keeping wind off skin is the first step!  Better is to keep all insulation behind a wind barrier.

Eric

Eric Hanson wrote:I also took to heart back in college a warning that some of my friends who were **SUPER** into mountain climbing told me—Cotton Kills.  The way they explained to me was that cotton went from being too warm to too wet to too cold too quickly.  Basically, if you exerted even just a little effort while layered up, the cotton would make you warm and you would sweat which would then get soaked up in the cotton layer at which point the cotton went from being a thermal insulator to a thermal conductor and one could get hypothermia very easily.  Some of those guys took the aversion to cotton to mean the didn’t wear **ANYTHING** cotton, including underwear.  As this was the early 90s, their options were limited but they got creative.  I will leave it at that.

Eric -

I know that this is the modern received wisdom - "cotton kills".  It was drilled into me, repeated like a mantra, when I was in Boy Scouts.  Older, now, and hopefully a bit wiser, I'd say "ça dépend"!

Interestingly, Henrik Brun, the founder of Brynje, knitted his mesh underwear of cotton string for the mass market (after initially using fishing net string):
https://www.brynje.no/gb/en/helsetroya

Today, Brynje uses either an 80/20 wool/polyamide blend or polypropylene, though they do still offer a cotton version of undershirts and briefs:
https://www.brynje.no/gb/en/helsetroye
But the longhandled unmentionables are only available in the wool blend or polypropylene.  I'm guessing the wool blend would be higher performance, better wearing, and would definitely stink a good deal less after a few weeks of manhauling sledges over pressure ridges in ones quest to reach the Pole (or whatever it is one does).  Polypro tends to get a bit "ripe" - wool, not so much.

Cotton, whether as "sail silk" (a very tightly woven long staple cotton canvas) or as Ventile, has a long history as an outerwear shell layer in extreme conditions.  As surprising as it may be, cotton Ventile was the outer layer for RAF survival suits to protect pilots ditching in the North Sea.  Connover and Connover recommend cotton wind pants and anorak over wool insulation layers in brutal arctic and subarctic conditions in their classic book "(A) Snowwalker's Companion" (the title varies slightly by edition).  In extreme cold, cotton will pass much more moisture than modern miracle membranes, highly marketed.  And, if someone doesn't believe that accumulated moisture can be dangerous in cold weather, they might read Apsley Cherry-Garrard's "The Worst Journey in the World".  Yikes!

The Connovers also advocate for "hot tenting" for winter camping expeditions - using a lightweight packable sheet metal wood stove inside a cotton canvas tent to permit line-drying damp or even wet clothes (whether due to overflow, falling through the ice, or even due to a rain during a warm spell).

Sorry that this has drifted away from the original sock topic.  I'll leave the sidebar here, other than saying that I don't think I'd want socks knitted like the mesh Brynje long underwear, at least not underfoot.  If the sole were a smoother knit, I'd be willing to give it a try in pack boots in a non-critical situation (close to home or help).  I wonder if I still have some of the old worn out Wigwam ragg wool socks around to unravel?

Kevin

Eric Hanson wrote:Steve,

I just read your earlier post about leggings-as-thermal-underwear.  As I mentioned above, I get cold in my legs first.  I also took to heart back in college a warning that some of my friends who were **SUPER** into mountain climbing told me—Cotton Kills.  The way they explained to me was that cotton went from being too warm to too wet to too cold too quickly.  Basically, if you exerted even just a little effort while layered up, the cotton would make you warm and you would sweat which would then get soaked up in the cotton layer at which point the cotton went from being a thermal insulator to a thermal conductor and one could get hypothermia very easily.  Some of those guys took the aversion to cotton to mean the didn’t wear **ANYTHING** cotton, including underwear.  As this was the early 90s, their options were limited but they got creative.  I will leave it at that.

My takeaway was that I don’t think I would ever use sweatpants under jeans as a thermal layer as you mentioned above.  Now I did not grow up in Maine, but Central Illinois is no stranger to very cold temperatures and high winds.  Seems like every winter we would get at least two days with temperatures at -20 or lower.  And when I was in college (second time), I did a lot of work outside in the winter and learned just how to layer up for extreme cold.  FYI, my first layer was just a cheap pair of wind pants simply to stop wind from penetrating.  It’s amazing what that alone did.

Eric

I am the same way and found if I can keep my legs warm, then I can generally stay overall warm. Incidentally it is the same way with my feet. Sometimes I will just change out my socks and instantly I feel warmer on a cold day, even if they are not wet.

I was told the same thing about cotton too, but just find the outdoor leggings... more synthetic in nature... are too hot under my jeans. Maybe cotton does kill but wearing cotton leggings is NOT something new for me. I have been doing it for 10 years now. They really work well for me in staying warm outside.

It might have to do with my clothing too though. I seldom wear a jacket because I am typically warm. It has to do with being an electrician. Since I have to wear clothing with high calorie protection to prevent high voltage arc burn, it is very warm. I am not sure what the calorie amount is. I know my super high voltage clothing has a calorie count of 40, so I assume my everyday clothing is 5 or less? It is warm in any case.

And yes, I have been lifted just the same. Last month I touched a 600 volt 3 phase switch while standing in a puddle of water. Yep, that stung!

Steve, Kevin, Derek,

I will give just a little bit of commentary about my part-time job I had while in college the second time, and eventually try to turn this back to socks.

My second round of college was as Illinois State University, in the same area that I grew up.  During this time I worked in Apartment Management, which was basically me going around and doing all sorts of odd jobs.  And as part-time jobs go, this was hands-down my favorite.  In fact, had I not been able to find a job teaching, this was my backup plan—to get into renting out properties.

At any rate, during the winters, and especially during and just after winter storm, my job was inevitably to go around and check properties for damage, snow buildup, salt driveways (not my favorite), sometimes clear snow from parking lots and all sorts of outside odd jobs.  Honestly, I loved the work!  And on those days, it was typically for the temperature to be between -15 and-20f with wind blowing fiercely out of the north on top.  It may not be -40, but was plenty cold for being outside for hours.  

I always came to work prepared—actually over prepared.  Typically I would wear jeans to work, sometimes with some type of long underwear (at the time, silk was my favorite).  But on those bitter cold days, I would layer up, typically starting with the silk long John top and bottom to start.  On my legs, I migh or might not put over another pair of long underwear.  In lieu of jeans, I had a pair of fleece pants (brand name Polartec, very warm, very comfortable).  On top of that I had a pair of wind pants.  Of course, I had socks, sometimes a pair of cotton socks with wool over.  On top I wore a T-shirt over the silk long Johns.  That was covered by a fleece sweatshirt (again, usually Polartec).  Over that, on extreme days I wore an old, very basic, very ugly, but perfectly useful down jacket that I inherited from my father.  That down jacket was not wind proof and was not sturdy enough to stand up to heavy use by itself so on top of that I wore an old coat whose insulation had been beaten down almost flat over time.  It was plenty wind proof and so-so warm, but layered with the old down jacket, the two made a GREAT combination!  I topped that with actual snow boots, good, gortex, fully insulated winter gloves made for snowmobiling, and good headgear.  As if all that were not enough, I carried an additional bag of even more winter clothing in a bag in my car that included snowmobiling bib-overalls!

With all those layers, I was plenty prepared for bitter cold and high winds.  I could spend hours outside without risk of hypothermia or frostbite.  Going back inside could get warm, but being dressed in layers, I certainly could unzip or remove a layer so as to not overheat.  Sometimes when I went to class (I simply walked from work.  I walked for a LOT of my work) once I got ready to sit down, I performed what must have looked like some sort of incredibly lame striptease as I removed layer after layer.  Frequently I would simply pull my wind pants down to my ankles so as to not overheat—but I always had jeans or the fleece pants (almost like sweatpants) on underneath. I got some off stairs, but what did I care?

Ultimately, the socks the weak point.  New, my wool socks worked great!  Technically, they were a wool outer layer and an acrylic inner layer and they were both warm and comfortable as long as they did not get worn threadbare.  And that brings me back to the issue of finding socks that last and socks made of natural materials.  Those socks, which I did like, unfortunately fit neither category.  So I am liking the ongoing discussion about ways to find/make durable socks that are warm, comfortable, and don’t break the bank,

Eric