Crypto currencies- good, bad, ugly? What do the permies think?

Read the book Digital Gold. All sorts of skullduggery already in its short history. Think FED Reserve with additional layer of secrecy....

Anyone remember PermaCredits?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tjSRWblmmA


I liked the idea of people who could get some kind of equity / dividends by investing in whatever permaculture project they wanted. The idea would jump start a lot of projects, and successful investing would cause a lot a lot of reinvesting in the next chosen project to invest in (which is what KIVA claims)

It doesn't have to be permaculture, either. FoundUps is based on the same principle, but for any 'Startup'.
Last I heard, they even chose the Ethereum platform as the way to do this. I believe there was a delay after Ehtereum forked.

Edit: Sorry, Mike, I missed your post. You -do- remember.

Just a quick question...

If someone had put $1000 into Bitcoin back when this thread was started... how much would it be worth now?

My wife talked me out of buying $100 worth back in the beginning. I remind her from time to time. It was $0.12 at the time. It keeps bumping $58k the last few days.

I could have bought 833.333 Bitcoin for the $100. It would be worth $48,333,333.33 @ $58k per coin.

Hind sight is 20/20. lol

I've worked on a crypto startup a few years ago the last time it was "going to the moon" lost a lot of money when the bubble burst. When bitcoin goes down it takes all the other coins with it.


Personally I'd rather put $100 into potatos, at least then I'm pretty much guaranteed a solid ROI of several 100% more potato than my original investment. You wont find that on the stock market..

There is also the issue that bitcoin uses enough electricity a month to power New York for a year (or something ridiculous like that). There are more efficient coins out there in terms of power consumption, but they are much less useful.

Decentralized currency is good only as long as you have someplace to spend it. I spent all mine, I wont buy any more any time soon.

T Simpson wrote: I spent all mine, I wont buy any more any time soon.

If you still had all of your coins. Would they be worth more today than what you paid for them?

I agree though. Almost nothing beats what Mother Nature will give you in return. So long as you take the time to learn her language and then work for her. Which is why I spend most of my money and time investing there.

I bought during the last growth phase also. Then during the burst it consolidated back down around the area I bought in at. I held, and bought more at a discount.

I now am sitting at a 8x return on my investment.

I will be holding onto mine and giving them to the kids some day though. I don't plan to invest any more nor will I ever sell. It is just another egg in another basket.

Bitcoin technically only requires one computer to operate right? All the rest are folks mining for it trying to win more. So the more it increases in price the more it is worth spending energy on trying to mine. The more that happens, the stronger and more resilient the network becomes. Bitcoin cannot be stopped.

It is not Bitcoin that is spending the energy. It is people spending the energy to grasp onto more.

Hi,  FYI  The fed and banks and countries are developing and making crypto currency now. That means what for bitcoin and the others? Bitcoin, and the like, is currently supposed to be a finite number of shares, the others are not going to be.

What happens to money when govts and banks print as much as they want to? Just a thought from a non techie.

Stay peaceful

I've never quite gotten past all the stories of terrorist and criminal organizations using cryto currencies.  I suspect governments are using it too.  Seems like it could be a new found super tool for making the world even more unstable that it already is.  What to do about that....stability through much, much more permaculture is the best I can think of.

Greg Martin wrote:I've never quite gotten past all the stories of terrorist and criminal organizations using cryto currencies.

Compared to cash such as the USD and other fiat currencies bitcoin does not make a dent in criminal transactions. It did however anonymize online sales but cash is still king.

Arthur Angaran wrote:
What happens to money when govts and banks print as much as they want to? Just a thought from a non techie.
l

You will get a centralized digital currency which is the opposite of what bitcoin is. Likely you will be required to link an ID such as social security and provide proof of work. Centralized digital currency is authoritarian and sets a precedent for a globalized digital currency controlled by a single entity such as the United Nations etc.. Personally I think nothing good can come from it an is only an excuse to have the government have tighter control over the workforce. On the other end is potential for universal basic income which is its own can of worms.

Centralized currencies should be avoided IMO. Local/regional currency should be promoted.

Greg Martin wrote:I've never quite gotten past all the stories of terrorist and criminal organizations using cryto currencies.  I suspect governments are using it too.  Seems like it could be a new found super tool for making the world even more unstable that it already is.  What to do about that....stability through much, much more permaculture is the best I can think of.

This is a common strawman argument against Bitcoin.
Can criminals and terrorists not use cash to do their terrible deeds? How did they ever exist before the computer age?

Notice who is saying these things. Not typical crypto currency users. No, it is those that have a power structure to lose.

The same argument is being used to make cash go away. (Test driven in entire shopping districts in England, etc)
In Europe, it is against the law to do any transaction over... 3k-5k Euro, depending on member state.

There are 2 things you can do with cash (and perhaps metals) that they do not like:
1) Anonymous means of exchange that they can't monitor 100% and tax.
2) The capability to store for a rainy day.

#2 is an interesting one, as there is credible speculation that in a cashless society with UBI, they could put your monthly allotment in your account, and it expires by the end of the month. Forcing you to spend it all before the month is up. Keeping you on the dole, unable to get ahead. (There are a few historical examples of this in alternative currency, and it was used to keep the velocity of money moving faster, so it was actually good thing to combat hoarding/depression)

Having an anonymous means of exchange is a terrible thing after all, since they won't be able to monitor and tax your every transaction. And saving money, to get ahead some day?

T Simpson wrote:
You will get a centralized digital currency which is the opposite of what bitcoin is. Likely you will be required to link an ID such as social security and provide proof of work. Centralized digital currency is authoritarian and sets a precedent for a globalized digital currency controlled by a single entity such as the United Nations etc.. Personally I think nothing good can come from it an is only an excuse to have the government have tighter control over the workforce.

Exactly true.
For the last 3 years, lots of big paying crypto jobs were posted for banks. I am sure they're working on a "Fedcoin" as we speak. Probably to replace the current system if (if?) things go belly up.

If you look at how they've used centralized payments systems against people they don't like already, I don't see it changing.
What do I mean?

Local banks closing accounts/refusing to cater to your business if you are (or accused of):
Any loose morality clause (Sex workers, adult industry, including writers and artists.

There is currently a bill proposal to apply this to gun shops.

And not just banks. Paypal, Square, and others.
And then there is the money-raising schemes out there, like Kickstarter, Patreon, goFundme, etc, canceling and taking back any money you might be raising for just about any reason they see fit:
Political, activists, and anything getting enough complaints (Cancel Culture)

On an international scale, there is a something call the SWIFT payment system that facilitate transactions between banks and members from different countries. This has always been denied to Iran, and anyone the US would want to punish/negotiate over. Russia, China and India have been trying to create an alternative,etc, etc

Greg Martin wrote:I've never quite gotten past all the stories of terrorist and criminal organizations using cryto currencies.  I suspect governments are using it too.  Seems like it could be a new found super tool for making the world even more unstable that it already is.  What to do about that....stability through much, much more permaculture is the best I can think of.

Those stories all overlook the #1 most used currency for drugs, terrorist, and criminal organizations... It dwarfs the use of cryptos by far. it is...

The U.S. dollar.

Marty Mitchell wrote:

Greg Martin wrote:I've never quite gotten past all the stories of terrorist and criminal organizations using cryto currencies.  I suspect governments are using it too.  Seems like it could be a new found super tool for making the world even more unstable that it already is.  What to do about that....stability through much, much more permaculture is the best I can think of.

Those stories all overlook the #1 most used currency for drugs, terrorist, and criminal organizations... It dwarfs the use of cryptos by far. it is...

The U.S. dollar.

I don't disagree.  The US dollar is a tool, cryto is a tool.  Tools can and are used for good and bad outcomes.  It just seems like cryto is a more powerful tool....no?  My only point is that that can lead to more powerful repercussions for stability and that permaculture is a set of tools that can help create stability for folks.

Greg Martin wrote:
I don't disagree.  The US dollar is a tool, cryto is a tool.  Tools can and are used for good and bad outcomes.  It just seems like cryto is a more powerful tool....no?  My only point is that that can lead to more powerful repercussions for stability and that permaculture is a set of tools that can help create stability for folks.

I totally agree. Crypto is just another tool to get down the road of life. It will only ever get as powerful as people see it as. It is a great social experiment. For me, I see crypto as a chance to free humanity from the control of others. (I am talking Bitcoin and such, not govt coins that will be coming, or bankster coins like Ripple). That is what in my heart. In my mind, I know that the controllers will find a way to gain more control. We will see a great battle over this during our lifetimes I think. Mostly in the form of propaganda. They have already started the war to demonize it to keep people away.

Permaculture is possibly THE single best tool to help create stability in peoples lives. It is a massive set of tools that is designed for that purpose. Where it is food, shelter, finance, health, proper nutrition, internal peace and happiness, etc.

In my mind, a home that is paid for, on an acre of land that is heavily permafied is worth more than all the money in the world. Having an oasis for me, my family/friends, and nature is a great thing.

However, having the wealth to change the lives of 100 or 1000 families would be even more amazing. I just wish there were a way to place some permaculture lenses over the eyes of the peoples of the world.

Y'all might think I'm a completely paranoid off-gridder separatist after you read this, but here goes:

All fiat currency, that is, not tied to a tangible item like gold or silver, is nothing but a "digit." Digits that get deposited into a bank account that you can either use to pay for tangible items like clothing or groceries, or you can cash out in trade for a piece of paper that says it's printed in good faith that the United States will back it.

I am no crypto-currency expert, but I don't see how it's any different from any other fiat currency--just not backed by a government or centralized bank.

If the grid goes down and you don't have access to those magical digits you've stored, how are you going to feed and clothe your family? If inflation elevates to the point where they have practically no spending value, how will you feed and clothe your family? Inflation has already started: a true CPI, not "corrected" with cheaper goods or with the stimulus $ added in, went up approximately 17% in 2020. That means you need to earn 17% more today to pay for the items you needed to survive last year. Wages aren't keeping up with that.

My personal financial strategy at this point is to keep an emergency fund (unexpected repairs, insurance deductibles, etc.) then spend what we can on real, tangible goods that will be used for meeting our family's needs or bartering in the future. When coffee costs a zillion dollars a bag, I can barter a few beans with my neighbor in exchange for something else we need. The neighbors might have gasoline, and we can trade purified drinking water. We'll give them tomatoes in exchange for a night's worth of security.

A previous poster gave the excellent point that spending money of potatoes today will most likely give a 100% yield on future potatoes. That's my current mindset too.

Honestly, I've gotten to the point where money is what I'm trying to wean myself away from. I'm using money at this point to purchase items so that I don't need money in the future. Granted, I'll always have to pay taxes, but right now I can buy seeds, trees, fruit trees, water containers, tools, etc so the money we earn we don't need to rely on so much.

Central Bank Digital Currencies will be the real problem moving forward.  They have all the disadvantages of current paper fiat, plus all the drawbacks of being programable, so say for instance there is an emergency and suddenly there is a food and water shortage.  The government can program your digital currency to only purchase certain items up to a certain limit.   What if you want to travel to buy something?  Well the government can program your digital currency to only work within a certain distance from your home.  What if you post something online the government doesn't agree with?  All of a sudden your digital currency is blocked and doesn't work!  Can you envision a social credit score which will free up or restrict your use of funds?  Very Scary.

Bitcoin has none of those problems, but everyone should be aware of how to purchase and place their BTC in cold storage off-line.  Also there is no substitute at this time for physical wealth like Silver.

They way I see it, if you believe that these crypto(dead)currencies were created by anyone other than those who are in control, then you are a fool. The trials are complete, and now they know how to tax it, track it, launder huge sums with it, and shut off access to any who doesn't toe the line.

The inflation the paper fiat currencies is being driven by the anonymity of it, large sums of paper surging into it by those who participate in less than scrupulous activities, as they can finally unload vast stores into something less "traceable". The only way to get away with this is to be at the top of the ladder, as the anonymous aspect would not be available permanently for those of us who wish to exit this slave central bank system.

Not to say that you are a fool if you bought some. Just be aware of the possibility of deceit.


Constitutional silver, real estate, and physical goods are where I hang my hat. Not that it is a large one. I also, plan on working with my neighbors, friends, family, etc to keep stability in the arena that I can affect, come what may. This whole prepper bugout bs is just to get you out in unfamiliar territory where you have less resources. Not wise in my book.