What research do permies need?

My apologies if I take up space repeating what everyone knows.

All that said, modern science is just starting to learn about what goes on underground, they can't even catalog the microorganisms in a tablespoon of soil, things can vary dramatically within short distances and I have a feeling that direct observation of your particular site is of more value than someones generalizations.

The problem in researching this area is the number of uncontrolled, possibly unknown variables. Because of this I expect to see erratic results from research, even if it is actually unbiased. The exception would be something that is so positive or negative that it overwhelms the other variables.

I would like to see more research in developing perrenial grains. I would also like to see more development of minor or wild food varieties. I actually think that is probably the area where permies will, in the end, make a huge impact. All of our developed fruits, vegies and grains were developed by people who were working their little plots and saw a plant that performed better. I doubt any of them had a government grant or a PHD. Now days we would recognize them as permies in their general approach to things.

I would like to see more research in developing perrenial grains. I would also like to see more development of minor or wild food varieties. I actually think that is probably the area where permies will, in the end, make a huge impact. All of our developed fruits, vegies and grains were developed by people who were working their little plots and saw a plant that performed better. I doubt any of them had a government grant or a PHD. Now days we would recognize them as permies in their general approach to things.

Great ideas Mick.

I'm actually feeling done going over the debate end of things on this thread, and would like to commit to redirecting it to research topics.

Hi Tyler Ludens

Maybe all this debate about grazing and soils needs to be split off into another topic?

Yes.

We could direct people to this one that you mentioned earlier.

https://permies.com/t/52468/cattle/collection-rebuttals--acowspiracynti-cattle

Or we could start a new thread. ?

Roberto pokachinni wrote:
Is vapor barrier really needed in housing?

Here's what I found on a 1/2" plywood shell on a wood frame. I painted the outside but ran out of paint high up on the south wall. The IR temperature gun reported temperatures 3 to 4.5 degrees colder on the plywood taken FROM THE INSIDE where the plywood wasn't painted.

My conclusion is: in the pacific northwest even in periods of no rain, paint keeps moisture out and where moisture isn't kept out, the building will loose heat  due to evaporation of that moisture.

Maybe my conclusion is false and the temperature difference is due to something else (no shadows are on the south side during winter).
However, if moisture is the causal reason for the lower temperature, then I would conclude that a vapor barrier, be it paint or otherwise, will keep your structure warmer. Who knows what else a vapor barrier will do for a structure: keep out rot?

The question remains what needs research? How to do that research?
My idea is to take specific items like a solar air heater from the forums and turn it into a thread on the "Items Submitted for Research". Once approved for research (perhaps a clear definition for the specific attributes on an item to be researched is defined first before approval by the community), the Item entry would be placed on the "Items Currently Being Researched". The community could then carry out the research as individuals or as a group on each item and/or attribute. As a group, each individual would be responsible for a specific attribute. As individuals, all attributes would be investigated along the lines directed by the approval process.
The methods, data, and conclusions could be then published in a wiki style and a comparison of all researchers could be laid out spreadsheet style.

How did I not find this thread sooner??? Yona, thank you for a magnificent question!

What sort of grand-scale research needs to be done in the permaculture community?

Here's a few things high on my list if I ever find myself with more time than stuff to do... Some are research in the science sense, and some or more about engineering guidelines, but both are directly useful for projects in my future.

Test the effects of waterproof umbrella with and without insulation on soil temperature vs. depth. My intention here is directly related to wofati design, but it's useful information for other earth sheltered buildings, and even for conventional buildings with horizontal insulation around their foundation.

The experimental setup would be a series of shafts drilled 12 - 20 feet deep. Each shaft has a set of temperature sensors lowered in, positioned perhaps a foot apart, then the shaft is backfilled. All sensors for all shafts would be connected to a data logger, as would one more sensor which detects ambient air temperature.

One shaft would be the control, having the sensors as described above and no other treatment. The hypothesis is that temperature in this shaft will follow change in ambient air temperature, but as we go deeper the temperature swings less and the time lag from surface change is longer.

A second shaft would have an umbrella over it, wofati style, spread perhaps 10 to 20 feet to each side of the shaft. The hypothesis is that the temperature swings observed in this shaft will occur slower than the control, especially when there is precipitation which wets the soil and speeds the temperature change in the control. Perhaps adding soil moisture sensors to both shafts would also be useful.

A third shaft would have an umbrella over it, then an insulation layer, and then another umbrella to keep the insulation dry... exactly like a wofati. The hypothesis is that temperature swings observed in this shaft will occur much slower than either prior shaft.

Additional shafts could be used with different insulation amounts, thereby determining the amount of insulation necessary to stabilize the temperature within a desired range, given a specified depth.

Test a freezer wofati
As long as we're looking at wofati related things, I believe Paul is still keen to build and test a freezer wofati.
Threads elsewhere on this site explain that.

Rocket Mass Heater related research

Measure temperatures in various parts of a RMH J-tube, exploring various design/size options and how they impact temperature distribution.

Measure combustion efficiency from a RMH, as measured by exit gasses (as Peter V has done in recent innovator's events), and tweak both J-tube and batch box designs to explore the factors that affect the efficiency.

Various building materials experiments...

Experiment with various aircrete mixes, standardizing ingredients and process to produce them, and publish data on compressive strength, tensile strength (very low), density, etc.

Experiment with aircrete mixes with specifically avoid portland cement, determining which alternative materials (pozzalans, MgO solutions, etc) are viable, and publishing needed data for mix design and strength.

Determine whether straw bale insulation is viable below grade, if adequately waterproofed. Explanation... Mike Oeler's & Paul Wheaton argue that a wood pole foundation will not rot quickly, as long as it's kept dry. If correct, this seems to eliminate the principal concern with using strawbales for sub-grade insulation... so bury straw bales that are waterproofed with a reasonable DIY natural building technique, perhaps plastering them, then putting a wofati style umbrella over them... then dig them up years later and measure if and how much degradation or decay has occurred.

Waste management...
There are soooo many different arguments about composting toilet designs. In the humanure handbook, Jenkins publishes many years of very useful data, but many people have fecophobia and don't want to use the bucket system. So, we need a side by side comparison of the many other systems vying for this space... Paul Wheaton's willow feeders, clivus multrum, worm based systems, etc. I believe that Paul and Fred might have strongly different opinions in this area and it could be fun to engage them and learn from both.

Solar thermal...
I'd love to measure the efficiency of various collectors (either solar water or solar air heating), but not the thermal efficiency (output energy / input sunlight) because that's not critical when the input energy is free. Rather, I'd like to measure their economic efficiency (output energy / input $ to construct). Test results of the economic efficiency of various standard collector designs could be very useful for DIYers and permies everywhere.

And if we really want to get wild, research the potential for homestead scale power generation with ringbom stirling engines powered by the temperature differential between stable earth temperature and atmospheric temperature.
That one probably demands a little explanation...

Stirling engines are external combustion engines. They don't burn fuel internally, they operate from the temperature differential between a hot side and a cool side. For example, you could focus a concentrating solar collector on the hot side of a stirling engine and it will go.

There is a class of stirling engines, known as ringbom stirling engines, which is specifically designed to run on very low temperature differentials, sometimes less than ten degrees.

Such a temperature differential could easily be provided by the difference between deep earth temperature (12 to 20 feet is enough to be reasonably stable), and atmospheric temperature during the high and low temperature parts of the day.

Research area #1 - for a given climate area, examine the theoretical power available from the ground to air temperature differential, based on historic temperature swings vs time of year. Consider the size of heat exchanger needed in the ground to ensure the power generated doesn't cease due to local ground heating or cooling faster than the temperature change can be dissipated within the surrounding earth. Consider the size of atmospheric heat exchanger needed and viable technologies for it. Based on these heat exchanger sizes and costs, is the theoretically available power economically feasible?

Note - the efficiency of stirling engines is very close to the carnot cycle, meaning that their efficiency is proportional to the magnitude of the difference between the hot side temperature and the cold side. This means that ringbom stirling engines, being designed to operate on low temperature differentials, are fundamentally designed to be highly inefficient. At one level this is irrelevant if the input energy is free, but that doesn't mean it's economically a good idea.

Research area #2 - if the theoretical numbers work, then design and test solutions to actually do this.

There's tons of research opportunities around various geothermal heating/cooling solutions for DIY/natural building...
The WOFATI is one example.
People operating greenhouses which circulate their air through systems of pipes beneath the greenhouse are another example.


And this list is just getting warmed up... there's so much more...

The basics; food; shelter and energy.

Food- Most of our forest are non food producing. Man is increasing in number we should be able to replace the existing forest with food forest. The best way to do that is to spread the good seeds (Thats how nature do it). Then render other non food plants infertile. Why not kill it outright? Because it serves as host to all bio organism including food plants.  So that while non food plants lives as host it is unable to multiply. this will allow for an smooth transition to food forest.

Shelter- I'd like to see a machine that converts dirt into concrete like structure of varying density by simply passing an energy beam on it.

Energy- We know for a fact that as long as the few business interest, who controls the vast resources of earth, is in control. they wont allow a free energy device. Remember Nikola Tesla and other inventors of free energy? So for now I'd like to see energy; electricity and fuel for engines to come from biomass which is abundant to permies.

[quote=)Roberto pokachinni
Is vapor barrier really needed in housing?


This has been tested over the past 35 years by the housing industry and the results show the answer is yes. Water infiltration can cause proliferation of molds (including black mold). Water infilltration includes water vapor.

Redhawk

Aircrete. I did a search and found a number of people inquiring about aircrete, and not much information at all. We have built a foamer and are starting to experiment a little. We would like to know more about how to pump aircrete; it looks like more research might be needed in pumping it to use in walls. Also how to make aircrete in a continuous  flow process so that it can be pumped into walls as insulation/mass. There is a video by Mr. Energy Saver on YouTube, and I would like to find out how to build such a rig.

https://www.domegaia.com/upcoming-workshops.html
I'm just waiting for a workshop coming to my area (Olympic Peninsula)
Foamer: https://www.domegaia.com/dragon-foamers.html
Good luck!

Comment on vapor barriers.  They have been proven unnecessary in northern climates.  But the construction must be very specific for it to work.  Look at the "Perfect Wall" construction information.  It is being done without vapor barriers in some parts of europe and is slowly coming to the states.  There has to be an air barrier that seals nearly perfectly.  But it can be vapor permeable as long as it is slow.  Then insulation on both sides of it.  The typical dew point needs to be in the outer insulation layer.  Then over the outer insulation layer an air gap and then siding they they are calling a rain screen.  Its job is to keep rain out but let air into the air gap so the outer insulation is constantly dried.  Mostly they are still doing vapor barriers though but just moving them deeper in the wall.