Aquaponics

Over the week end I went to a aquaponics class, and thought it was interesting concept,

In one way not really permaculture, but it looked like it could be adapted, in some way,

the biggest draw back was the fish still need to be feed (normally by external means and food) , and was not a true closed loop system,  but one was raising fish and plants in a system, in many of the systems the pumps were solar,

Any thoughts on using the system or variations of the system?

I had a system running for a while and am trying to get it started up again. I am positioning it where the power for the pump is a water wheel.

Yes, you have to add food, but nothing stops you from combining them with something else, for example, compost all your scraps, and lawn clippings, etc. in a bed of redworms, and feed the redworms to the fish. Since aquaponics is so compact, you can use other space for growing food for your fish.

And you could always check to see if the local butchers have scraps to feed to catfish and crawfish (our crawfish are called langostinos and are up to 12 inches in size) - I guess this is no different than asking for the leaves from neighbors for your garden.

As an aquaponicist (I might have made that term up), I'm a big supporter of people trying it out.  You're right that AP does still require inputs, but Fred is also correct that you can source these inputs in a sustainable way.  Many people have delved into this area with black soldier fly larvae, composting worms, duckweed, spent brewer's yeast, etc.  If you have the land, growing the fish food shouldn't be too difficult.

I'm curious why you think "In one way not really permaculture."

IN my way of thinking using hydroponics for most plants, is not a natural process,
and my impression of permaculture is taking the best of nature and building up on it.

to grow vegetables or other normal soil plants in a gravel or neutral medium I do not see it as natural, 

I am not saying there is not plants that grow in water but that is not what most people want to grow in this manor,

I guess I see this "modern irrigation" around me, in that all the soil has become is a medium for the plant to stand up in, and nearly ever other input is some thing bought in and pumped into the water (called chemigation) to fertilizer and feed the plant, and if the law would allow they would do there herbicides, as well in the water, 

My other half tried to set up an aquaponics system a year or so back.  We got the hardware up and running, but we never managed to source suitable fish to put in it so it's currently still in 'test' mode with a few coi karp lurking about in it and a few very undersized plants in the grow beds.  We don't run the pump very often as the carp just don't seem to need it and there's only a few of them. 

I wasn't convinced at the start that the system would fit into a permie set up, but now I'm experimenting with growing more plants in containers, especially ones I have to raise from seed as they aren't available to buy here, I'm starting to think that maybe the system could be adapted to provide nutrient rich water for a small nursery.  When I started to research organic methods of growing container plants, I soon ran into the notion that it's just not reliable to do so using only organic methods as the conversion of organic nitrogen to a form that plants can actually use is dependent on bacteria which are difficult to maintain in plant pots.  As I started fiddling around with ideas of making compost tea and testing it to see if there were any nitrates in it yet, I was reminded very strongly of the aquaponics set up, and as I'm slowly realising that effective compost tea takes a heck of a lot longer than 24 hours to brew if I want it to supply ready-to-use nutrients.  I'm wondering if it would be just as easy and no more expensive to use a fish raising tank rather than running the aquarium pump in the compost tea barrel 24 hours a day 7 days a week just to keep the microbes working. 

In a fully established system, you wouldn't really need a 'nursery' area, and it would be nice to have fish raised in a pond rather than a tank, but realistically we can't afford to hire a digger and dig a hole deep enough to stay full of water all during the summer, but we can afford a tank big enough to raise enough fish to feed us one day a week.  And if we can also use the tank to supply nutrient rich water to raise permie friendly plants for ourselves and others, then I think it could play an important role in our system. 

Birdman wrote:
Over the week end I went to a aquaponics class, and thought it was interesting concept,

In one way not really permaculture, but it looked like it could be adapted, in some way,

the biggest draw back was the fish still need to be feed (normally by external means and food) , and was not a true closed loop system,  but one was raising fish and plants in a system, in many of the systems the pumps were solar,

Any thoughts on using the system or variations of the system?

I understand your interest in Aquaponics Birdman, I have been fascinated with it for some time. I also have similar concerns in terms of sustainability. I too am a true Permie at heart.....  and I want natural integrations and not extra tech and organic inputs to maintain a system.

AP is marvellous in that you use less water... it is recycled through the pebble growbeds with the plants growing there extracting the nutrients and acting as a bio-filter. The fish get cleaner water and the plants get a rich nutrient source that also gives oxygen to the roots in the ebb and flow of the cycles. Extra dissolved oxygen is also given to the fish because of this.

The down side for me is that algae cannot be used to feed tilapia in this system because it clogs up the pump. Algae is too valuable a Permie resource for me to want to give up.... it is extremely rich in Omega 3 and a natural food for tilapia.... as well as being extremely economical to produce.... fully sustainable. I am also deeply concerned about maintaining the right pH for both fish and plants. The pH where I live is high because I live largely on dolomitic deposits within chert bedrock. The best range for plant nutrient uptake seems to be around 6.5. The tilapia are able to live in my very hard calcium rich water and thrive. This difference could cause problems I just don't want to fiddle with.... time and costly amendments needed to keep everything running smoothly. I want a system to practically maintain itself.

However, I admit to not wanting to give up on AP totally either........ it is too clever an innovation....

There may be a way to integrate Permie concepts into a modified AP design.... AP being fish and plants..... and not necessarily recycling water in a closed system.......

I am toying with the idea of using the nutrient rich water from the fish pond into wicking beds.

Wicking beds store water below the plant bed in a reservoir and organic material in the soil bed wicks the water up to the plant roots. (Tremendous plant growth on little water is done this way.... no evaporation) The organic rich soil is also touching down to the base of the reservoir in places .... to ensure wicking is enhanced.

I would do this on a slope..... up top is the fish pond.... gravity feed nutrient rich fish water via Solids Lifting Overflow into a pebble bed along the length (and just below) the fish pond............. gate valve in place to release the water as needed into the wicking bed reservoir.... (the nitrogen cycle is still effected in both the pond and the top pebble bed so that ammonia is turned into useful nitrates). This it seems would be done once a week. I would just make sure that enough wicking beds are planted out to use up enough water so that a once a week top-up of clean well-water would be enough to maintain water quality for the tilapia. I would not use trout for this... too fussy in terms of water quality.

The wicking beds would be run as worm beds too. Double whammy of nutrition.... fish water and earthworm castings. AP is not truly sustainable because seaweed plant foods are usually added to maintain plant health. Chelated iron is also often added. I think running the growbeds as wormbeds too will avoid these deficiencies.

I top up my fish pond as needed at the moment. It has a slow leak... just an old overflow reservoir I used to get started with tilapia. This keeps the fish healthy enough so a once a week top-up of enough water in the new pond should work well too.

Chelle

This is not the First Aquaponics thread here.

To label something "non permaculture" I fear is being too restrictive.  Everything must be looked at in context and the more sustainable methods for a situation should be used.

Now growing plants in Aquaponics might not be the primary goal.  The reason to grow plants in aquaponics is to use up the nutrients in the water without having to dump polluted water and replace it as is needed with aquariums or aquaculture.  If you are growing fish and need to keep the water quality up for those fish, Aquaponics can be a sustainable way to do it.

Cyara, don't simply give up on aquaponics because of your source water being from a limestone aquifer.  The action of the bacteria bio-filter in aquaponics does work to acidify the water and unless your tanks/grow beds and media are also limestone, the pH of the water will come down.  My system much of my media is shells which keeps the pH at 7.6 generally, I might not be as successful as I like with some plants but I still have plenty of others that think aquaponics is great.  The wicking beds also seem like a good alternative.

The nursery aquaponics is also a great idea, I've used the aquaponics beds for starting pots of seedlings to great success so long as the squirrels and rats don't dig up the dirt in the pots to eat my worms and in the process uproot my poor little seedlings.  But other than that, it works great!  I just dig a hole in the grave bed enough that the bottom of the plant pot will get intermittent water as the bed floods and drains.  Or better yet, I've found the aquaponics system to be a great way to root cuttings!!!  I've had success rooting rosemary, bamboo, meyer lemon so far as well as some accidental ones like crepe myrtle and laural oak.  The regular intermittent water along with the nice balance of biota in the beds seems to support the rooting of cuttings sans any sort of rooting hormones or chemicals work very well.

As to the argument about growing in a non soil media being "not natural".  Why is it not natural?  Or perhaps I should say why is growing in a non soil aquaponic media any less natural than container growing plants in a soilless container media?  And I personally don't buy the argument that plants all have to be grown in a perfect loam soil since I've never in my adult life lived anywhere that such a thing existed naturally.  Where I grew up we had sand, where I live now, we have sand.  Growing plants here by standard chemical and irrigated means is more like hydroponics than my aquaponics system is.  I know there is a good population of microbes and earthworms living in my flood and drain media beds, same can not be said about the sand on the ground until I've spent years building it up with mulch and drip irrigation and growing soil building crops.  Also, here in Florida, I don't think growing in soil is a requirement, all a plant needs here is a good place to get it's roots into and enough moisture to germinate and get established.  Just ask the ferns if they require growing on the ground in dirt?  Many seem perfectly happy to grow on the oak tree branches.  And the acorns that the squirrels bury in my grow beds have germinated very well and the seedlings don't seem to mind.

Perhaps the plastics needed for the plumbing and the tanks might not be purist natural and the electricity used to run pumps is a bit of a shame but the waste of water by irrigating the ground in my location to get the same amount of growth from the plants would be far more wasteful in my location/climate and since I like eating the fish, I need to use up the nutrients that growing them puts in the water and I don't want to dump and replace water as that would be far more wasteful.

So, while I would never say fertile productive ground should be ignored to place an aquaponics system over it, I would say use aquaponics where dirt farming is not appropriate.  Like in cities where the ground is covered by concrete or in deserts where watering the ground is not effective or over tainted soil, or where the soil pests/diseases make many crops nearly impossible to grow chemical free in the ground (even a container sitting near the dirt here gets nematode problems,) or where a protein source is needed but space/zoning does not allow for livestock.  Or just simply for diversity where many methods makes for less chance of complete failure.

I would like to come up with better feed sources for the fish.  Worms or BSF larva from bins are a nice option of feed supplementation but they are really too fatty to be the primary feed for fish like tilapia and catfish at least.  Tilapia will happily feast on duckweed or algae but I don't really see those as viable options in small recirculating aquaponics systems where people are trying to grow the fish out really fast.  Tilapia will survive on duckweed if you can keep them supplied with enough of it, but they won't grow as fast as they do on commercial feed.  The bug zappers and bug lights do provide a good supplement of bugs to the catfish I'm growing but again, not a fast way to grow out large numbers.

We only have a small number of tilapia left in our systems as we don't like the taste/texture of them as much as the channel catfish and the tilapia will die in water as cold as ours got last winter without heating but catfish can survive it and even continue eating/growing some in cooler water.  Also, Channel Catfish are native fish here so they are the better choice of the two as well as being easier to clean/fillet.  So, the search goes on for feed alternatives for the catfish.  And I wouldn't mind getting away from the bulk corn/soy commercial feeds for my chickens/ducks too.  At least the chickens and ducks can range a bit more in search of their food but I'm on a small lot so it is difficult to expect my lot to provide everything for them while I'm still trying to build the soil and grow food for us too.

It might be a bit ugly to throw in the occasional dead sheep in your system like I do for my catfish and langostinos but....

One thing to realize is that as you raise animals for food, you don't eat all of them (for those of you who do this) - the leftovers are excellent for fish. This goes with my idea of "no waste" as the key behind permaculture.

Speaking of which, if I want catfish for lunch, I need to go catch some...

TCLynx wrote:
This is not the First Aquaponics thread here.

To label something "non permaculture" I fear is being too restrictive.  Everything must be looked at in context and the more sustainable methods for a situation should be used.

No surprise that it is not the first AP thread... too good to ignore.

Agreed. Permaculture can be about increased sustainablilty and not just complete self-sustainability. It has within the concept the loose parameters of how far you want to go. In the city - and probably most of suburbia - complete sustainability is not possible and AP can never be ignored as a viable increase in sustainable living. But I also think that Permaculture concepts will in time imprint on this idea too. It has for me. Below I have added a SketchUp pic of what I hope will be such a design..... very low maintenance with lots of permie tweaks.... using what I have in my hand as best as I can see it for now. I love the simplicity of it. Any additional ideas really welcome.

Cyara, don't simply give up on aquaponics because of your source water being from a limestone aquifer.  The action of the bacteria bio-filter in aquaponics does work to acidify the water and unless your tanks/grow beds and media are also limestone, the pH of the water will come down.  My system much of my media is shells which keeps the pH at 7.6 generally, I might not be as successful as I like with some plants but I still have plenty of others that think aquaponics is great.  The wicking beds also seem like a good alternative.

The recognised method of AP would be less cost effective for me, TC .... both in terms of time and economics. I don't want to lose the benefits of the algae and want such a low tech design that I can replicate it anywhere. But in no way do I wish to knock the system for those with different criteria. You have successfully proved the value yourself in your set-up. No doubt about that. Superb production on land size.

I don't want to dump and replace water as that would be far more wasteful.

Depends on each situation. I have a river flowing by as one of my borders. Using more electricity would be more wasteful for me. Electricity costs are escalating here at a ridiculous rate. I am looking to get completely off-grid one day. All depends on what is important in each situation. I also do want to go for absolute self-sustainability..... regular AP design would not fit in with this.

I would like to come up with better feed sources for the fish.  Worms or BSF larva from bins are a nice option of feed supplementation but they are really too fatty to be the primary feed for fish like tilapia and catfish at least.  Tilapia will happily feast on duckweed or algae but I don't really see those as viable options in small recirculating aquaponics systems where people are trying to grow the fish out really fast. Tilapia will survive on duckweed if you can keep them supplied with enough of it, but they won't grow as fast as they do on commercial feed.  The bug zappers and bug lights do provide a good supplement of bugs to the catfish I'm growing but again, not a fast way to grow out large numbers.

This is true. If fast growth is important then more intense inputs are necessary. Fast growth does seem to lend itself to high omega 6 levels and other challenges though. Natural cycles take longer but seem to produce better quallity. Admittedly space is needed... or less fish eaten and more of other proteins.... chicken.. rabbit... mutton.... even goat. Possible even on a small lot. Just depends what is wanted.

Chelle

Fred Morgan wrote:
It might be a bit ugly to throw in the occasional dead sheep in your system like I do for my catfish and langostinos but....

One thing to realize is that as you raise animals for food, you don't eat all of them (for those of you who do this) - the leftovers are excellent for fish. This goes with my idea of "no waste" as the key behind permaculture.

I would do the same with my tilapia. No waste. Don't think I will feed fish waste to them though.

Chelle

Cyara wrote:
I would do the same with my tilapia. No waste. Don't think I will feed fish waste to them though.

Chelle

Perhaps it is simplistic, but I like to cross from cold blooded to warm blooded when feeding direct protein. I can think of no diseases that would go from fish to chicken, for example, or sheep to fish. Of course, I would be the ultimate consumer.

Fish to fish, not a good idea. Fish to crustacean, possibly.

Well, yes and no on the pathogen from warm blooded to fish in AP.

In pure aquaculture or in a pond, I'm not as worried unless harvesting food that would be eaten raw from the pond or swimming.

See the fish may not catch e. coli or salmonella or even carry it but if you are heavily contaminating the water the fish live in with major sources of those, then plants growing in such water can be contaminated too or even just using said water to wash the lettuce would be dangerous.

So, I'm not likely to go throwing whole bodies of dead livestock into a fish tank or pond that I'm dealing with, nor am I going to use the manure of livestock to fertilize to algae bloom in a pond I intend to eat produce from, I like raw food too much.

Now I am not above feeding cooked meat scraps to my chickens and I would probably be ok with giving cooked scraps of meat to the catfish.  I am also totally cool with feeding the fish heads and guts to the chickens when we clean fish.

But a whole dead animal, I think I'm going to beg off whacking off raw chunks to throw in my fish tank.  I think I would prefer to feed such a thing to BSF larva or maggots and feed the BSF larva and maggots to my fish.

If in doubt, I compost it, (complete compost whacko here and I got a thermometer to prove it.)

I don't give carcasses to aquaponics, I have rather large ponds, and I will tie up a carcass (opened up) and sink in them, they last for about 2 days...

But no, I am not suggesting anyone put a carcass in their aquaponics, for the smell reason only. 

And I can think of nothing I want to do less than swim in a pond with 500 catfish who are trained to eat what falls in the pond.  Never mind the obvious problem of the spines if you were to step on one.

I do swim in our tropical river which is very clean but tropical minnows have small teeth, or so it seems which is rather startling...

LOL, no probably wouldn't want to swim in a pond with flesh eating catfish.

Well I can remember working on the ornamental pond at my mom's place and when I had to get in the pond to work on the waterfall or something, it really tickled as the goldfish tried to nibble the hairs off my legs.

TCLynx wrote:
LOL, no probably wouldn't want to swim in a pond with flesh eating catfish.

Well I can remember working on the ornamental pond at my mom's place and when I had to get in the pond to work on the waterfall or something, it really tickled as the goldfish tried to nibble the hairs off my legs.

Yeah, and don't forget the langostinos - which can get 12 inches long, imagine swimming with lobsters who have a taste for flesh...

I know our caretaker won't swim in the pond anymore. 

E. coli is no joke.... but it doesn't survive thorough cooking.... so fish fed on offal are no risk if proper hygiene maintained... hopefully for more reasons than E.coli. Even fish not fed on offal can carry e. coli .... and it takes so very little to make one ill ...... so a true perspective needs to be maintained. No matter what levels of e. coli, proper cooking will ensure safety. I never eat raw fish..... not a sushi fan.

I will recycle offal through my fish without a qualm.

Nature has a way of recycling and restoring to health. Vermicomposting (composting using earthworms) eliminates Salmonella  and E. coli from wastes, [I have a study on record which I can dig up for anyone interested].....so using Wormbeds as Wicking Beds makes a lot of sense if raising fresh salad foods. No fish water is applied from above but is wicked up through the wormbed to the plant roots. I would not be so sure in normal AP systems though. Earthworms do live in the mature growbeds sometimes but the water just rushes through so fast .... best not to use offal in such circumstances perhaps.

Of course the best defence against E.coli is a healthy immune sustem. It manages to deal with the cancer cells naturally produced too.......just cells that are mis-formed and need to be destroyed...... produced and destroyed daily....... so that you never get labelled as "having cancer".

A healthy immune system needs organically grown food. Organics means natural recycling of manures and wastes back into the cycles of growth.

I guess we could start a thread.... in praise of the earthworm. E.coli and  Salmonella are not detectable after passage through the guts of earthworms.

BTW... Ozone also kills E.coli.... is being used in some processing plants and on fresh produce. An aquarium ozone generator can be bought. Ozone is fascinating. Is considered as sort of "activated" oxygen .... It contains three atoms of oxygen instead of the two atoms we normally breathe. It is a very powerful sterilant ......... destroying bacteria, viruses, and odours. When it comes in contact with something undesirable the extra atom of oxygen destroys it completely by oxidation. That extra atom is destroyed in this process and you have normal oxygen left........ cleared of bacteria, viruses, odours. 

Ozone gas is dangerous if used beyond recommendations.... it can literally strip the skin off your fish if too much is used with a protein skimmer.... I have seen it advertised this way. I want my proteins anyway. Best to use ozone after the water has left your pond..... or even in your home where you prepare fresh produce.

Waterfalls create ozone..... so does lightening.

Chelle

I have heard it also isn't a good idea to eat fresh water fish raw due to ingesting worms. I cook all fish, not a big fan of sushi anyway.

I'm a big fan of humanure composting and composting anything else that needs it.

Worms are great but as noted, how do you guarantee everything passes through their guts before contacting anything beyond their guts?  This is the reason I'm not into putting poo into the worm bins.

I suppose there is some added safety of using limited amount of water into the wicking beds but I'm not totally convinced that contaminated water will be rendered safe before it reaches the plants.

But to each their own.  I like the AP system water good and clean because I've been known to wash a carrot off in the AP water and eat it without ever entering the house.  So even if the worms render the water clean, I expect that would only be the water that has passed through their guts before mixing back with other water.  I'll avoid adding anything I know to be heavily contaminated with e. coli or possibly salmonella to my system water.

At some point I will probably have a duckaponics set up going to save water for my muscovies but that system will probably be growing stuff for mulch, not salad.

Hard to follow TCLynx.

How good and clean is AP system water? AP works with fish poop. This fish poop is not composted before or after it is lifted to the growbeds to feed the plants. Might be taking a perfectly clean carrot and contaminating it by washing it in AP water. Water harbors the intermediate stages of many parasites, either as free-living larvae or in some other form, and it is the vehicle for essential stages in the life cycle of many dangerous insect vectors, notably mosquitoes and blackflies. Fish poop does not carry e. coli but what can it be carrying? It is now a scientific fact that waterborne bacteria can live long and thrive on floating bits of fish poop.

I strongly suspect that this fish poop water passing through a Wormbed before being wicked up to plants would make these plants a lot safer to eat than using this water straight from the AP pond to wash off a carrot.

When composting humanure it is earthworms that do a lot of the sterilizing. You may not be putting poop in the wormbins but manure worms (earthworms) will readily find manure to process... composting. Eisenia foetida (commonly known as red wiggler, brandling, or manure worm) and Lumbricus rubellus are the 2 types most often found in aged manure and compost heaps. They are nature's cleansers.... anti-pathogen super-heroes.

Talking of using manure to create algae bloom: You keep mentioning this and so I realise you are assuming that fresh raw manure is being suggested. We agree. Not a good idea, especially when eating the fish. When I start eating my fish I want to use vermicomposted manures to feed the algae... which in turn so wonderfully feeds the fish. Managed in balance I don't think this can be beat. Algae provides the best nutrients for newly hatched fry, and as algae grows in a pond then a population of zooplankton will also develop, on which the fish also feed. A lovely permie ecology....... permaculture AP.

Chelle

Good to hear that you are not talking about using fresh (non composted) manure for algae blooms.

In humanure composting, it is actually the heat and time that take care of things like e. coli and salmonella.  Worms might get in there and improve things further at a later time (once the compost cools a bit) and work on it during the aging/curing period but there is not guarantee that every spec of compost passes through the worm's guts.  Worms are great for multiplying the beneficial bacteria and I firmly believe a good healthy system functions well because of diversity of microbes out competing the bad ones and keeping things in balance.

As to how clean is AP water, well since I'm not throwing heavily contaminated stuff in, and fish seem healthy, I figure it is a good healthy diverse mix in the water.  Yea, it is probably living a bit dangerously to not bring each carrot into the house for a good scrubbing before eating but I've taken drinks out of the garden hose as a kid and survived that too.  I know my AP water is clean enough that eating salads from the system has not made any of us sick.  If lettuce is sucking up badly contaminated water into the plant, then no amount of washing is going to remove the contaminants.

I'm not worried about fish poop not being composted because they are a cold blooded animal and there generally isn't much in the way of pathogens passed between fish and people.  If that wasn't the case, Aquaponics would never have made it off the ground 40 years ago.

I would be very worried about adding lots non-composted warm blooded animal manure to an AP system, that would be just as bad as spreading fresh manure on lettuce fields.  But well composted is another matter.  Well composted manure is what we should be using to grow much of our food.

I am in the process of building a barrel ponics set up( using food grade water barrels) for beds and for fish tank. The most common fish seem to be tilapia, trout, jade fish, carp etc. I cant really find a source for fish hatchery nearby. Most likely I will try to use perch as they live here in the SF bay area and it is foggy and chilly here to cold for tilapia. OR carp... My question is have any of you had experience with aquaponics and where do you find your fish sources?

I use channel catfish in my systems but a barrel fish tank is a bit small for growing out a big fish like channel catfish in my opinion.

Where to get fish, I go to a fish farm that supplies fingerlings for farm ponds.  They sell things like sunfish, blue gill, catfish and bass.  The place I go also sells koi.

I like to use native fish where possible since they will be more likely to survive the climate and if they were to be released to the wild, they wouldn't disrupt the native eco systems.

You might need to check your local regulations about what sorts of fish you can legally keep when you start making arrangements to buy them.

i have a friend who has a black soldier fly bin and feeds them to his fish. he gets waste from his neighbors and from some local restaurants. another friend also has an aquaponics system, he has a seperate tank that grows duckweed, he feeds that to the fish.

I've got BSF growing that we give to the chickens, ducks and fish as treats.  I think we might need some bigger bins to grow them and start getting scraps from elsewhere since we produce only so much.

Beware that BSF larva or worms are too fatty to be the sole feed for most fish.  Lots of variety is a good thing.

yea i need more food for my bsf too, they eat like crazy!

he fed them more than just BSF but its a great way to feed your fish for free.