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Need Design Ideas For A Ten Acre Land

 
Zee Sultan
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Hi

I believe life is all about health. If you are healthy everything comes automatically. Health starts from healthy food and healthy environment. Isn't it amazing that you can attain both health and healthy food by growing greens and growing fruits, vegetables and plants etc. But one thing above amazing is that you also can achieve abundance by growing food forests and gardens.

I hope I will soon share my successful projects with you people. I really have worked hard for permaculture though I had no training, no resources no connections no land but I searched solutions out of tough problems. I contacted hundreds of people in my country Pakistan but found no support. Then I contacted permculture experts from abroad but most of the experts were not willing to give me practical help even on discounted rates and I strongly agree that they are right after all they have reached this place after crossing so many hurdles. Sometimes I just gave up then I collected my bits and pieces and I decided that I had to promote permaculture because this is amazing thing even for poor people. Luckily I am a very creative person and have strong fighting spirits. I kept on contacting people and raised voice in favor of permaculture.

I have been learning and doing online course. Though unable to take certification but at least learning. I have been saving every money, even couldn’t make winter dresses no spending on shoes, dress even lipstick but just focusing on paying fees and promoting this beauty forest.

Hopefully I will soon get land from Government for first experiment. I will start my first food garden. I know the scarcity of money but still I have applied for land because something inside me saying “do it anyway do it because it’s not just you it’s also your country and the entire Globe. Create a success model.’

I couldn’t make a hospital for pain sufferers around the world though it is still on my priority but at least I can help pain sufferers and health issues indirectly. I have to succeed in this permaculture project.
I hope you all support me I promise I will share all steps of my first food forest with you and I just need one success to spread this wonderful permaculture / food forest culture in each and every corner of my country. You will soon see thousands of perma lovers from my country joining this forum.

I am already creating great love, respect, fondness and curiosity regarding this concept among the people I am talking . I am lucky that I am gifted with nice communication skills but what actually is making such a difference is my real enthusiasm which I am radiating for attracting buzz for permaculture. But you also promise to support me with your experience, tips and presence for my first project. Okay? Get ready I am going to ask so many stupid plus wise questions from tomorrow.

 
Dave Burton
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Welcome to permies Zee! It is inspirational to hear about your plans for permaculture in Pakistan! We look forward to hearing about your progress and will try to answer your questions as best as we can!

Best wishes for your project; I hope you receive the grant from the government!
 
Zee Sultan
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Happy thanks dear for your warm welcome. Sure I will share the project from start to end Insha Allah. Grant no way, Government will not give grant but i have to bear all expenses. I only applied for land lease despite the fact that they have been giving land at lease to unemployed youth but they refused me as I had no approach, no technical background or skilled courses at my credit. But then I decided to be more creative and I requested to provide land to do my first experiment. Though I will not get ownership etc. but still I can do something. Though things are in process but if I have decided to do then I will even if they refused to provide land for experiment. But I guess they will not. Good thing is that in the meanwhile I also get some one's else land and he also requested me to join with me. So you see the magic of believing.

When I will tell which land I applied for lease and which department I contacted you will laugh at my dare and craziness.
 
David Livingston
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Its always nice to hear about someone really wanting to be a regent and look after this world

David
 
Burra Maluca
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I merged your stuff with the following thread. I hope that is okay by you.
 
Zee Sultan
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Hi

As I have promised to share my first project with you from start to end. Yesterday on 4th February 2015 I have signed a final agreement to make “First Experimental Food Forest Project” I want to include you all so that you can also have a sense of belonging with this and those who want to initiate their projects don't feel alone. Take my example I started with scratch and alone, government hasn't given me land yet, but still I am going to make it as this concept has inspired my first client Ishtiaq therefore he happily provided me with his residence. So let’s have some fun and learning together while making this experiment successful.
The most interesting is my craziness and risky dare that I contacted forest department and applied for forest land but forest people even don't know about food forest. One day I was calling again and again to talk to secretary forest department but his PA was not connecting me with him rather asking why you want to talk? I replied that I want to make forest. He said we already have been creating lots of forests then what’s the need of forest made by you? I said I want to make food forest. He bluntly said “what’s the work of Food in Forest? I just disconnected the phone in anger but then I laughed too much. I told this to the secretary as well when I met him later.

They forwarded my case to research department so that they can take over the project with me, but I protested that what’s the right of them to take over the project? So I am no more interested in government land. The case is in process but now I didn't pursue even once. Instead I have decided to start work for Ishtiaq who is also a forester and was too much moved and impressed by the idea of food forest that he requested me to not only initiate the project at his land but also want to learn and work with me as well.

Seeing his passion and enthusiasm and openness for new techniques I prefer to work for him and with him as well. Though he is new to this entire concept but still easily understand all terms and concepts. I just need to verbally tell him that first I will do this then this -----. He is providing me with full support. Whatever I am suggesting him he is ready to provide me with that. I am happy that I am not only the pioneer of this concept in Pakistan but also spreading it fast and even attracting and approaching influential departments e.g. Forest department ----- so used to work in conventional way that asks “food in a forest? Ha ha ha! I really enjoyed his remarks and since that day I have been anxiously waiting for that day when I finally show him Food in a forest. Pray for me and the fruity paradise forest. You guys also try to connect with bold and like- minded passionate people because it’s the first key to success. Even in old bodies you can find young souls.

Technical details I will share tomorrow. Sorry for a little off topic but as this is going to be a history so I find it important to provide you with the necessary back ground.

I will show you entire land before and after step by step. I will invite your advice and suggestions and miracle tips as well.
 
Dale Hodgins
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geoff lawton did a video about an oasis in Morocco.  Many of the plants that grow there will grow in your climate. It's one of the oldest examples of a food forest anywhere. His work in Jordan may apply to your situation somewhat as well.

I think it's important that you have some examples to show potential clients, from predominantly Muslim places. Both of these qualify.
 
Burra Maluca
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I merged your stuff with the following thread. I hope that is okay by you.
 
Zee Sultan
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Climatic zone Sub Tropical

Soil loamy ( Waiting for detailed soil test report)

Swales are already there
Kindly let me know what information should I provide further to get your input?
I want to grow all local fruit trees, medicinal plants, herbs, shrubs, flowers, vegetables in guilds. I want separate portions for crops. Then pond and one water dam will also be the part of this perma garden.
Cow, buffalo, Goat, hen, pea cock, etc. I also aim to produce electricity and biogas. So many things in mind but I want more opinions on that.
 
Dave Burton
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Hello Zee!

We're excited to hear that you've decided to begin designing and establishing a food forest.

There is a lot of information needed to help create a good design, and my standard reply is to go through and answer all of or as many as you can of the questions in one or two permaculture designer client questionnaires because it will help you organize all of your thoughts, find the data that you currently have, and alert you to the information that you may still need to take into account when making your design.

Some questions to consider are:
1) Where are you located? (City, State/Province) This information is helpful because most of the weather and climatic data is related to your location. The Climate alone may or may not suffice fully. Not all places in the same climate have the same weather patterns.
A good place to look for this information is Weather Underground which contains a lot of useful data to go through. RSS Weather is great for climatic data, and Weather Spark provides wonderful graphs of the wind directions, humidity, temperatures, and more.

2)What is the elevation/contours of the land?

3) What are the solar angles in your area?

4) What is the frequency and strength of water-related events?

5)What is the soil like?
 
Zee Sultan
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Hi Dave thanks for such an informative reply. Such wonderful links especially client questionnaires but as for as daily temperatures and climates are concerned how can this chart help because it changes on daily basis.

I live in Pakistan province is Punjab and city is Lahore. Now winters have almost gone and spring is at the door. Ideal season to grow. The land is already a forest park for public. Swales are there. But yes you have raised important questions like contours etc. We don't have water storms in that area but yes wind storms near summer season.

Let me answer the questionnaire fully and completely then again come to this place with all details. Should the video of the exact location will work?
 
Zee Sultan
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Hi again
I just have gone through questionnaire one. This is such a long list of questions which will really help in good design. There are some points which I want someone to teach me as I am unable to understand. Can some one help me with these?
 
Dave Burton
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The most useful charts are found at WeatherSpark, and here is the link to the charts for Lahore, Pakistan. These charts show the yearly averages. You don't have to video the exact location. Do whatever suits you best.

Regarding the charts, the one about the directions where the wind blows will be helpful with planning where to plant windbreaks. Also, by looking at the relative humidity chart, I think there is potential to harvest water from the air in your location. There is a discussion about hravesting water from the air in this thread on permies.

We can try our bets to answer your questions here. What would you like us to explain? Are there any permaculture groups nearby that could help you, too?
 
Zee Sultan
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Bundle of thanks Dave. Your link has helped me a lot in gaining new information easily from the comfort of my home otherwise I was thinking of contacting weather department.

The other link was amazing I have never heard of this air water technique thing. No harm in trying though my site has no water problem moreover I am thinking of conserving rain water through Dam because Small dam can also produce electricity.

As far As form one is concerned in utility areas what is this clothes line?

I am also confused about which department can tell me about stream gradient
and slope gradient

and what is hardiness zone, warm summer slopes, cool summer slopes

In the climate what is this pockets? Air drainage and micro climates?

And I am introducing Permaculture in Pakistan with great enthusiasm no one near me to guide and teach. This is my first experimental project. Success of this project is crucial as it will open a whole new awareness of permaculture in Pakistan. Need the help and support of you experts and friends.
 
Dave Burton
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The clothesline thing regarding energy is that the dryer uses so much energy in many households, that hanging clothes out to dry on a clothesline would save people energy and money.

Stream gradient/slope is how steep the stream and slope is. The gradient is the change in height over a defined distance. For example, in the picture, there is height of 20km across a distance of 5 km. So, the gradient is 20km/5km, units cancel, and the gradient is 4. The number gives an indication of how steep the land is, and the higher the number, the more useful a stream on that land will be useful for hydropower.

source

A hardiness zone is a way of saying that certain plants are able to grow in different areas of the world.

A climate pocket and microclimate are terms for the same thing, as far as I know. A microclimate is a small area that exhibits a different climate than the majority of the surrounding area. One great example of a microclimate shown on permies, is Dale's Winter Apple Harvest in which he harvested around 70 pounds of apples in the middle of winter in Victoria, British-Columbia, Canada. I do not know anything about so his property, so I cannot comment on his specific microclimate. Victoria is on Vancouver Island, and I think it may have something to do with receiving the warm Alaskan Current and the fact that water is great at retaining heat.

Microclimates can be formed by changing the way wind, water, sunlight, and earth move across a landscape. Windbreaks, for example, can create areas of calm peaceful air flow by forcing the wind to travel in the upper portions of the atmosphere instead of right ontop of the ground. Shady trees can create cooler microclimates for younger or heat-sensitive plants to grow. Depending on the desired microclimates, there are different ways of achieving those goals.

Here are some good resources for teaching oneself about permaculture for free:
Open Permaculture School
Bill Mollison Online Lecture Series
Geoff Lawton and Permaculture News
The Global Gardener Series
Jack Spirko Permaculture YouTube Series
Paul Wheaton's Permaculture Keynote and the rest of his channel
Deep Green Permaculture

Here is diagram by sepp holzer explaining warm and cold slopes.

source
 
Burra Maluca
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I merged your stuff with the following thread. I hope that is okay by you.
 
Zee Sultan
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Hi Friends

This is a serious call for all Permies to help me in this project because It needs to be extra ordinary impressive in order to promote Permaculture not only in my country Pakistan but also in the other regions. I have challenged forest department that kindly replace conventional forestry with Permaculture in order to save this planet. After attending several meetings, presentations and sessions I finally got 10 acre land but the land which they decided first to give they changed at the last moment because they thought that permaculture is just a hypothetical thing and conventional mode of forestry is by far the best for them. Their preference is Timber.
Though access to the new land is extremely tough for me and I have been upset since I myself have seen the troubles’ getting there because my residence is far off and I don't have my vehicle. Also got a minor accident yesterday But I still accepted the new land as its totally virgin and its such fertile that they say that our land is such fertile that if you sow man in it even the man will grow. It’s a new forest been made by government on a bigger scale so the earth work has been going on and water lines are being established. Getting man power will also be no problem at this stage.

Now there are three options for me to choose from at the same place
On one corner they have mulberry planted and I can plant somewhere between the beds.
One the other side they have populus /black poplar. I can try permaculture guilds in between the spaces.
And the video I will attach here is the separate corner where they have grown nothing but of course they will plant their standard trees in rows there as well. Their plant nursery is also very close to that place. I have selected that place because I think before they plant their standard trees I should present them with my design so that they will follow that design.

Place is totally prepared and levelled. Water system already established by them. I have taken soil samples for proper test but could not send yet to the soil department but soil is loam .
Answers Needed
I selected the place near nursery with no tree planting there am I right or should I select other place with trees already there? But in my opinion I can freely make design with bare piece of soil.
If the land is virgin do you think that still it is necessary to amend the soil? If yes can I use just farm yard manure and poultry waste or should I decide after detailed soil test?
How many trees/plants and species should I plant in 100 square meter area. I have read that in vertical growing at least 300 plants should be grown in one 100 square meter area?

Rest of the details I will give in another post as it is already lengthy but let me just give you some basic location details and my preferences for design

Region: Pakistan, City; Lahore, Province Punjab
Climate Sub Tropical Climate
Bed rock is 60 ft deep
Water table is 40 feet and is going down by 3 feet every year.
Dave Burton has sent me the link https://weatherspark.com/averages/32865/Lahore-Punjab-Pakistan where we can have temperature and wind details
Neighborhood details : it’s a forest land and in surrounding areas some private nurseries, villagers pastures and crop fields some bare lands and animals mostly buffaloes.

I want to grow all fruit trees. Except apples and a few other trees all fruit trees can be easily grown in our land and are native.
I want to grow all crops as well. Lentils also if possible. Spices like cloves etc are not native to Lahore but peppers and few others only.
Vegetables
Other shrubs, flowers and medicinal plants necessary will also be grown as the guild will demand.
I want to make my own nursery and compost there by keeping some place aside.
I will also try for pond but can’t say will they allow me or not but I really want a nice pond with fish and which can also conserve water as I want to show them total sustain able model along with water conservation. ( Other things like energy conservation and production etc. which I strongly dream will not be afforded at this stage but surely will be possible once this food forest be a success). They are using bore water with machinery fitted with it so using lots of energy I wish I could present them a highly viable alternative to save this energy which they are consuming on drawing water from soil.
Animal even hens are not allowed to me at this moment but lots of buffaloes and cows are in the surrounding villages.
So at this moment only a diverse healthy thick and dense forest full of fruits/ crops, vegetables and other plants with high aesthetic appeal is the only requirement. Other aspects of perma like energy production etc.etc .are neither allowed nor funded so not needed. But obviously a practical idea could be presented to them for future consideration..

I also want to know if any expert want to visit Pakistan and work in collaboration with me in a systemized way then let me know kindly.

Is there a way to direct video upload here? I tried through vimeo but failed moreover I prefer to just show video at this forum.
 
Rebecca Norman
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Best of luck to you! I can't pop over the border, of course, but I'm eager to hear how your project progresses, and to see pictures.
 
Dave Burton
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I agree with you that the site without anything on it will allow you to design what you want to on it.

Loamy soil is great, and from what you mentioned about how almost anything can grow on the soil in your region, it may not be necessary to amend the soil. However, a soil test may still prove useful to see what you are working with.

From what it sounds like, implementing something similar to the Afforestt Technique would be ideal for your situation. The general idea of the Afforestt Technique is to do a soil test, find what nutrients are missing in the soil, amend the soil, heavily layer on manure and straw (kind of like bomb-proof sheet-mulching), plant the trees very densely so that they are forced to grow quickly because they have to outcompete each other (3-5 trees per square/meter), and protect the trees during the first few years of growth from predators and then let the plants and organisms in the area reach an equilibrium.
 
Zee Sultan
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Oh great so you already are familiar with afforestt technique, yes I know that afforrestt before I know permaculture and but afforestt person has taken his technique from Akira Mayawaki of Japan and even Akira's technique also is a small portion of broad permaculture. Dave so you got right I really want think dense forest which can grow super fast. What if we can come up with a new nice garden by blending great things?
 
S Bengi
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I could make 3 acres of the land a permaculture timber/nut area ( maybe some nut trees that will provide food and at the end of it's life really good timber)

I would make another 3 acres your "fruit" food forest. I would your area is at least zone 11 so any plant that requires chill hours will not grow there.


At startup you want about 90% of the plants to be Nitrogen fixing and for the seedling to be half meter away from each other. Always culling as soon as




 
Dan Boone
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It sounds like you are working within a lot of limitations on which permacultural techniques you are allowed to use in this project, and which techniques (like animal systems) are off limits. In your other thread you wrote:

As I have promised to share my first project with you from start to end. Yesterday on 4th February 2015 I have signed a final agreement to make “First Experimental Food Forest Project” I want to include you all so that you can also have a sense of belonging with this and those who want to initiate their projects don't feel alone.


For people to provide design help here in this thread, knowing the specifics of what the limitations are would be really helpful. Is there any chance you could post your copy of the Final Agreement here so that everybody is on the same page regarding what is allowed and what is not?
 
Burra Maluca
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Zee, I am a little confused by the situation. I have merged all your threads together so we can better keep track of what you are saying.

Can you confirm that you now have an agreement to develop the land?

If we could see what was written on the agreement it would help us to help you develop a design.

There seems to be some confusion over funding. Could you explain what the situation is?

We would also need coordinates of the land so we can access information from places like google earth about the topography.

Details of climate are important. Could you provide those?

Photographs of the site would greatly help us to visualise the situation. Also the history of the site.

There seem to be a few discrepancies between what you are saying in public and what you are telling members privately, and it's becoming very confusing.

 
Burra Maluca
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Zee - I have removed your previous post as it broke the 'be nice' rule rather severely several times.

If you want a design made, you will have to supply details of the land and what is allowed to be done on it. If you consider that to be 'confidential' then there is nothing we can do to help you.

You said that you are doing this "alone ... with out any benefits and resources" and yet you have told other members that there is a 5 million (rupee?) fund available. I'm not sure what to believe.

You cannot upload videos direct to permies, but you can upload them to youtube and link to them. Or upload photos here.

You cannot expect people to help you if you won't provide the information needed. If you consider that supplying the required information is a distraction, then I don't think that you really want any help.

 
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