Win a copy of The Tourist Trail this week in the Writing forum!
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Joseph Lofthouse
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Mike Jay
garden masters:
  • Steve Thorn
  • Dave Burton
  • Joylynn Hardesty
gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Pearl Sutton
  • Greg Martin

Promiscuous auto-hybridizing tomatoes

 
Posts: 116
Location: Northern Colorado
29
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:The third photo shows a ripe tomato from a cross between a red domestic tomato, and S. habrochaites. Andrew: If it has any seeds in it, some of them are intended for you. The fruit turned more yellow under the sunlight in the greenhouse than it did in a low-light bedroom window.



Wow! Thanks!

Here's my update so far.

Photo 1: Solanum galapagense. I LOVE these leaves!



2. Solanum cheesmaniae



3. Solanum habrochaites



4. Misidentified as Wx5 but really Solanum cheesmaniae?



5. Regular Tomato for comparison. I believe this is the variety known as "Anasazi" that i got from Boulder, CO.

 
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Andrew Barney wrote:4. Misidentified as Wx5 but really Solanum cheesmaniae?



Looks like what I call WxO, or Wild Orange (synonymns) The defining characteristic of the variety is that it's the sweetest variety that I have grown. It came from the same set of crosses as Wx5, so recently descended from an unknown wild ancestor.

Wild Orange Flower


Wild Orange Fruit (aka WxO)
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
One of the second generation plants from this project is currently flowering. The anther cones are loosely-connected, and open, and the stigmas are somewhat exerted (inside red circles). Yay! The petals are small. Oh well. The floral display is decent in spite of the small petals. So it's OK as a first approximation. I am pollinating it with other plants from this project that have huge petals. The plant has a determinate growth pattern, which tends to work well in my garden.

Here's what part of the project looks like as of 2017-04-08.





tomato-panamorous-2017-04-08.jpg
[Thumbnail for tomato-panamorous-2017-04-08.jpg]
Panamorous tomatoes
tomatoes-polyamorous-2017-04-08.jpg
[Thumbnail for tomatoes-polyamorous-2017-04-08.jpg]
Polyamorous and panamorous tomato breeding project
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Fruits ripened for the panamorous pollination project last week. I squeezed the juice/seeds out of them into a bottle to ferment. The fermentation finished today, so I harvested about 118 seeds. These are F2 seeds, the second generation since the cross. This is the most exciting generation for a plant breeder, because that's where the most diversity shows up in crosses.

interspecies-hybrid-tomato-fruits.jpg
[Thumbnail for interspecies-hybrid-tomato-fruits.jpg]
Inter-species tomato fruits
fern-f2-seeds.jpg
[Thumbnail for fern-f2-seeds.jpg]
Interspecies tomato seeds
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

I love this project... Fruits are ripe today from a fine specimen of "Oh My!". They were pollinated by "F1" in the pedigree shown a few posts ago. And by other pollen donors, some shown on the pedigree and others not shown.  What the pedigree didn't show is that F1 is 4 distinct lines of tomatoes. So the pedigree is more like a mesh-network. There is plenty of time this growing season to grow out the seeds, and select for traits that will further the project. Additionally, many more lines are currently flowering, and I am able to select for desired traits before planting them out into the garden, which I expect to do in about 2 weeks.

I love the flowers of the wild species. There are 3 different wild species in the following photo, and inter-species hybrids  between wild and domestic tomatoes.
descended-from-wild-tomatoes.jpg
[Thumbnail for descended-from-wild-tomatoes.jpg]
Fruits descended from wild tomatoes
wild-tomato-flowers.jpg
[Thumbnail for wild-tomato-flowers.jpg]
Flowers on wild tomatoes
 
Andrew Barney
Posts: 116
Location: Northern Colorado
29
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
found some interesting info today. Are you working with  S. sitiens and S. lycopersicoides? Because apparently they have scented flowers....

http://vanderknaaplab.uga.edu/files/Bedinger_Sex_Plant_Review.pdf

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10681-008-9863-6?LI=true


Variation in mating systems and correlated floral traits
in the tomato clade

The wild relatives of the cultivated tomato provide a
great diversity in mating systems and reproductive biology
(Rick 1988). Several species, including cultivated tomato,
S. lycopersicum (formerly Lycopersicon esculentum), are
autogamous, i.e. self-compatible (SC) and normally selfpollinating
(Table 1). They bear small- to modest-sized
flowers, on mostly simple and short inflorescences; their
corolla segments are relatively pale colored, the anthers
short, and the stigma surface does not protrude (exsert) far
beyond the tip of the anther cone, all traits that promote
self-pollination and discourage outcrossing.

At the other end of the spectrum are several allogamous
(outcrossing) species. These taxa are all self-incompatible
(SI) and have floral traits that promote cross-pollination,
including large, highly divided inflorescences, brightly
colored petals and anthers, and exserted stigmas. This
group includes two pairs of sister taxa—S. juglandifolium
and S. ochranthum, and S. lycopersicoides and S. sitiens—
that are closely allied with the tomato clade, but are classified
in two other sections of the genus (Peralta et al.
2008). All four of these tomato allies have unique floral
traits that set them apart from the tomatoes: anthers lack
the sterile appendage typical of tomato flowers, pollen is
shed via terminal anther pores instead of through longitudinal
slits, anthers are unattached rather than fused, and
flowers are noticeably scented
(Chetelat et al. 2009). It
should be noted that S. pennellii lacks the sterile appendage
and has terminal pollen dehiscence, but in all other respects
more closely resembles the other members of the tomato
clade.

Between these extremes are two groups of species with
facultative mating systems. The first group, which includes
S. pimpinellifolium and S. chmielewskii, is SC but their
floral structures promote outcrossing. Within S. pimpinellifolium,
there is significant variation in both flower size
and outcrossing rate. Under field conditions with native bee
pollinators, the rate of outcrossing in S. pimpinellifolium
was positively correlated with anther length and stigma
exsertion (Rick et al. 1978).



Another striking difference is that flowers of S. sitiens and S. lycopersicoides are strongly scented, whereas those of S. chilense and S. peruvianum—like all other members of Solanum sect. Lycopersicon—have no obvious odor (Table 3). The production of volatile scent compounds presumably serves to attract insect pollinators, perhaps a broader suite of bee species or other types of insects. Interestingly, the floral scent of S. sitiens, a ‘mothball-like’ odor, is noticeably different from that of S. lycopersicoides, which is more reminiscent of honey or nectar.


 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Andrew, I'm currently growing 9 species of tomatoes, but not S. sitiens or S. lycopersicoides.

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:2017-04-11: Fruits ripened for the panamorous pollination project [...] I harvested about 118 seeds.



Today I transplanted the seedlings into larger pots. There were 54 plants -- all derived from the same grandmother and grandfather. The seeds germinated and grew unevenly, so some are much more developed than others. I am thrilled with just under 50% germination! Some of the plants have fern-like leaves like their grandmother. With so many plants, there should be lots of opportunity to select for desired traits like flower characteristics, fruit size, and taste. I tasted some of the fruits from this family today. I was pleased that they picked up fruity flavors from the wild ancestor.

I planted about 40 seeds today from a different grandmother (same grandfather).

I have saved plenty of room in my fields to plant these widely separated so that I can easily evaluate each plant.

In the next few weeks, I expect more fruits to be developing. If any of you have been wanting to participate in this project, send me a first class postage stamp, and I'll share about a dozen F2 seeds as they become available.

Also, the most precocious of the F2 plants, from a different family, has fruits on it that are almost ripe. It's great-grandfather is the same as the grandfather of the plants in the other photo. I was able to grow out 3 generations of this family in a single growing season.

F1 = the first generation (children) of the cross
F2 = The second generation (grandchildren) of the cross
f2-hybrid-fern-x-solanum-habrochaites.jpg
[Thumbnail for f2-hybrid-fern-x-solanum-habrochaites.jpg]
Grandchildren of cross between fern-leaved tomato and Solanum habrochaites
F2-noid-red-determinate-X-solanum-habrochaites.jpg
[Thumbnail for F2-noid-red-determinate-X-solanum-habrochaites.jpg]
grandchild of cross between a red determinate tomato and Solanum habrochaites
 
pollinator
Posts: 422
Location: Montana
129
forest garden trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I love this thread. Joseph sent me some seed for a Solanum cornelio-muellerii x S. Peruvianum hybrid and the second plant just bloomed. Kind of exciting and it's different from the first the exserted stigma is much shorter. I call the first plant "faster father" and the second "slower father" because Joseph speculated over in a thread where I've been writing about my direct seeding adventures that two different accessions of S. Peruvianum he grew out were the pollen donors for the two accessions. One which grew faster and the other slower. Pictures below.

Might as well also show pictures of some other interesting wild tomatoes. The solanum habrochaites Joseph sent me "one from each accession" and a photo of a potato leaf plant called "Dwarf Hirsutum cross" from J&L Gardens in NM.
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Short exserted stigma - slow father
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Long exserted stigma fast father
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Habrochaites 1
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
habrochaites 2
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Dwarf Hirsutum Cross
 
William Schlegel
pollinator
Posts: 422
Location: Montana
129
forest garden trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:In a flat of seedlings which were harvested from S. peruvianum, that were inter-planted with S. habrochaites, there is one seedling that is off-type. Perhaps it's an interspecies hybrid? I'll keep watch on it, and see if other traits diverge later on.

The second photo is what is typical of the mother on the right. What is typical of the father on the left, and what looks like a plant with traits mid-way between the suspected parents in the middle.



This seedling is very interesting and if it is indeed a cross between Habrochaites and Peruvianum I would love to have some seed from it! However it occurred to me it might possibly be the reciprocal cross from that Joseph sent me. Peruvianum x Cornelio muellerii. Though depending on circumstances this might not even be a possibility. I've been thinking I had 5 Cornelio-muelleri x peruvianum plants and 1 Solanum peruvianum. In examining my photos I think my tiniest Cornelio-muelleri x peruvianum is a second pure peruvianum and my labeling diligence needs work. So here are photos of the five for comparison.
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Fast father resprout
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Slow father resprout
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Big younger resprout
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Probably a tiny pure peruvianum- which means I have two resprout peruvianums
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Individual that Survived 2 Frosts with top growth
 
William Schlegel
pollinator
Posts: 422
Location: Montana
129
forest garden trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I did a search for promiscuous individuals and varieties amongst my domestic tomatoes. Some of the beefsteaks are a little promising with some big messy double flowers with fused stigmas that should have higher outcrossing rates. One of the potato leaved Matina plants has slightly exserted stigmas. 2 of the JL landrace 2015 Potato Leaves are about the same and my real big Blue Gold is about the same- it has a slight tendency to push its stigmas out the side of its anther cone- and it'd the first domestic I spotted a bumble bee on. I found a few flowers of 42 days that seemed exserted but this seems to happen later in the flower development. However then I hit a jackpot. Blue Ambrosia has highly exserted stigmas comparable to those on the Solanum cornelio muelleri x S. Peruvianum and S. Peruvianum. Looks like I have five plants of this variety with two in bloom already and both of the two have the trait. It starts early on the young flowers and continues until they are old comparable again to the wild tomatoes.

I'm excited about this as I bet this means something like a 20% outcrossing rate or better for these plants. I'll definitely be saving a lot of seed and planting a lot of Blue Ambrosia next year. Most of the hybrids should have red fruit. Since Blue Ambrosia is a yellow/blue tomato which is doing well in direct seeding attempts (55 DTM) it should be possible to direct seed a lot of it next year. Hundred row feet next year? You bet! Hmm- hope it tastes good!

image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
P!! Is my note taking here
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Blue Ambrosia plant 1
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Blue Ambrosia Plant 2
 
William Schlegel
pollinator
Posts: 422
Location: Montana
129
forest garden trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
So I went a little crazy with the new vegibee pollinator this morning. I started with some of the pampered backyard tomatoes. Got a mix of pollen on the spoon from White Shah, Michael Pollen, Pineapple, D5 frost Trials, and maybe some from Krainy Sever. Then I ripped apart some young sweet Cherriette flowers. Pulled off the anther cone and dipped the stigma in the pollen spoon.

Then I went out to the land with those exposed stigmas of Blue Ambrosia on my mind.

I mixed pollen on the spoon from Forest Fire, Sweet Cherriette, 42 Days and Jagodka and dipped the Stigmas of the first Blue Ambrosia plant.

Then I added pollen from Siletz and dipped the stigmas of the second plant (March direct seeded).

Not done I went to the Solanum cornelio-muelleri x S. Peruvianum patch. I left the domestic pollen on the spoon just for luck and collected pollen from slow father, fast father, straight peruvianum, and that faster growing plant from the second batch (might be a fast father full sibling). Then I dipped the stigmas of the five or so flowers on the 2 frost top survivor with the different colored foliage. I went back to fast and slow for some more stigma dipping.

 
William Schlegel
pollinator
Posts: 422
Location: Montana
129
forest garden trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
My wild promiscuous tomato patch has progressed in my absence. My LA 1777 descended Neandermato has grown and is putting out some tight buds.

However Slow Father and Fast Father have green fruits. However fast father has a purple stripe while slow father is uniformly purple. I just checked above and that stripe can be normal for peruvianum.

Also the plant of that same Cornelio-muelleri x which survived two frosts seems yet to have formed any fruits. With its different coloration I have to wonder if it has a different father- but what or whom?
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
Slow father purple fruit
image.jpg
[Thumbnail for image.jpg]
fast Father fruit with stripe
 
William Schlegel
pollinator
Posts: 422
Location: Montana
129
forest garden trees
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

William Schlegel wrote:My wild promiscuous tomato patch has progressed in my absence. My LA 1777 descended Neandermato has grown and is putting out some tight buds.

However Slow Father and Fast Father have green fruits. However fast father has a purple stripe while slow father is uniformly purple. I just checked above and that stripe can be normal for peruvianum.

Also the plant of that same Cornelio-muelleri x which survived two frosts seems yet to have formed any fruits. With its different coloration I have to wonder if it has a different father- but what or whom?



We'll amend that upon further observation. The LA 1777 descended plant buds are larger- close to blooming but not quite. Also interestingly the stigma has yet to emerge.

The plant which survived two frosts has formed a few fruits!- yay it is also the plant which I really want to plant the descendents of and ultimately cross with domestics.
 
Andrew Barney
Posts: 116
Location: Northern Colorado
29
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Joseph, how do you think you are coming along with this or similar projects as related to your original posts and original stated goals? Perhaps a hard and complex question with an equally complex answer.

For everyone else, i am on the hunt for Solanum sitiens and Solanum lycopersicoides as these are two wild species of tomatoes that have scented flowers. I am highly interested in those and could see them enhancing this project even more.
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Andrew Barney wrote:Joseph, how do you think you are coming along with this or similar projects as related to your original posts and original stated goals? Perhaps a hard and complex question with an equally complex answer.



This project is going wonderful. A lot of progress was made during the past year.

Some observations -----

It looks like the self-incompatibility trait is restored by simple segregation. So selecting for self-incompatible plants can be as easy as watching the plants and selecting for those that are self-incompatible. I estimate that about 10% of the F2 plants are self-incompatible. It looks like back-crossing the inter-species hybrids to wild species was also successful, so I'm following both paths to select for self-incompatibility.

The domestic-type flowering traits are highly pervasive among the offspring, By that I mean that about 90% of the offspring are reverting to domestic-type flowers rather than promiscuous flowers. It's just a numbers game at this point, so for the coming growing season, I'm intending to grow out large numbers of plants in the greenhouse in tiny pots, and selecting among them for promiscuous type flowers. The plants with promiscuous flowers can be planted together into the field. Those with industrialized flowers can be planted highly crowded into a different field, and selection among them gets to be for large or tasty fruits.

There is tremendous potential to select for fruits that are sweet, fruity, and aromatic. I might actually develop a tomato that pleases my taste buds, rather than something that is merely tolerated.

Many of these plants are huge monstrosities that seem to want to take over the garden! My selection criteria for the time being is first for promiscuity, but eventually for determinate growth habit. I'm sharing seed widely so that other people can select for what they find valuable.

The idea of using the plants promiscuity to make natural hybrids, which was suggested by John Weiland, was tried by Gilbert Fritz, who planted a Big Hill tomato surrounded by Neandermato (Solanum habrochaites). Gilbert shared seeds with me from Big Hill. I am super-excited about it.  Big Hill was my first attempt at making a promiscuous tomato. It combines my life-long favorite tasting tomato, Hillbilly, with Jagodka, my earliest and primary market tomato. Big Hill has open flowers, and is fairly susceptible to cross pollination. So last night I planted about 40 seeds provided by Gilbert. By the time they are a couple weeks old, it will be obvious if any of them are hybrids, because the leaf shape of Neandermato will be dominant in any crosses. If I find any hybrids, it will save me a year on my breeding goals, maybe two if I can get a seedcrop grown over-winter.

Inter-species hybrid fruits: [Domestic tomatoes X Neandermato]


There's some exciting leaf shapes showing up.




Bees continue to love the flowers




I collected lots of seed, so I am sharing widely. I highly value the collaborators that are working on this project with me. Thank you for growing these out, and doing your own experiments, and developing your own varieties.

Inter-species tomato hybrids
fruits of interspecies tomato hybrids


Where am I headed with this project?

Selecting for self-incompatibility ==> Polyamorous tomatoes

Selecting for beautifully promiscuous flowers ==> Panamorous tomatoes

Watching for anything clever that emerges ==> Conventional varieties of tomatoes

This summer, I intend to promote natural cross pollination between [domestic X S. habrochaites] and [domestic X S. pennellii]. I might attempt manual crossing as well, but I'm moving the whole project towards natural cross pollination as much as possible. I attempted natural inter-species crossing by planting one S. habrochaites plant into a patch of S. peruvianum plants. No fruits were produced by the S. habrochaites plant, indicating perhaps that they are pretty far apart genetically.

I'm intending to introduce more  diversity of s-alleles into the hybrid population.

I'm also working on adapting the wild species to my garden. I have now grown two generations of S. corneliomulleri. This year much more fruit was produced than last year, so it seems like survival of the fittest selection is working on it.

I'm not expecting to use S. galapagense, S. cheesmanae, or S pimpinellifolium in the beautifully promiscuous tomato project, but I was able to successfully grow seed from them, and expect to continue adapting them to my garden.




 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A somewhat related side project that I am working on, is growing wild tomato species. One of them that I am working with is Solanum galapagense. The seed for it came to me with complex instructions about how I should treat the seed so that it will germinate. Instructions I suppose that were someone's idea of what conditions the seed might experience if it were eaten by a turtle...

As usual, I said, "That's nonsense! I want to select for seed that grows just like any other garden vegetable." So I merely planted the seeds without treatment. Most of them failed to germinate. But a few germinated after a long time, so I grew out the plants and collected seeds from them. A few days ago, I planted some of the collected seeds. Plants germinated in a few days. Wow! That was quick. Seems like you get what you select for. I'm mainly selecting for plants that produce seeds in my garden. And that germinate quickly.



solanum-galapagense.jpg
[Thumbnail for solanum-galapagense.jpg]
Solanum galapagense
 
Andrew Barney
Posts: 116
Location: Northern Colorado
29
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:A somewhat related side project that I am working on, is growing wild tomato species. One of them that I am working with it Solanum galapagense. The seed for it came to me with complex instructions about how I should treat the seed so that it will germinate. Instructions I suppose that were someone's idea of what conditions the seed might experience if it were eaten by a turtle...

As usual, I said, "That's nonsense! I want to select for seed that grows just like any other garden vegetable." So I merely planted the seeds without treatment. Most of them failed to germinate. But a few germinated after a long time, so I grew out the plants and collected seeds from them. A few days ago, I planted some of the collected seeds. Plants germinated in a few days. Wow! That was quick. Seems like you get what you select for. I'm mainly selecting for plants that produce seeds in my garden. And that germinate quickly.



haha, nice. What are you planning on doing with them? I had trouble with the S. cheesmaniae and S. galapagense. The galapagense has a more interesting genome, but for most of the season they grew very bushy and did not want to flower. Seemed like most of the few flowers that formed fell off like some sort of nutrient deficiency.  I had several accession going, one that supposedly had brown-ish fruits, and one that was an outlier having red fruits supposedly. Both of those failed to produce fruit for me sadly. But i did collect a few fruits from one plant that were small, orange, and hairy. So that's encouraging. The cheesmaiae produced small smooth orange fruit very late in the season, but i got a few of those too. The pimpinellifolium i grew seemed to grow fine on their own. Got plenty of fruits from them, but they were not very tasty at all so i am not particularly interested in them. I also grew out fruit from a company that was claiming to sell S. cheesmaniae tomatoes, and those turned out NOT to be pure cheesmaniae as they were some sort of domestic hybrid. But those actually did really well for me and were very tasty non-the-less so i am keeping them anyway.

No, thank you for all the inspiring hard work you do. When you first announced this project i don't think i had much if any interest in it other that the curious notion that yes i would like to see a domestic tomato that attracts pollinators to help them out. Little did i know then how much this project would become interesting and exciting. I LOVE working with the wild tomato species, there is just something special about them. Reminds me of the fun experiments with weird corn traits and growing teosinte. I get much of the same satisfaction from growing these as i did those. Hope to grow those again someday. I am very much enjoying doing my own grow outs and experiments that are synergistic to yours, but different. A good compliment as i feel your stuff encourages me and perhaps mine encourages you.

I have a lead on some germplasm for S. lycopersicoides from a chilean seed company / preservation company. They are currently out of stock according to their website, but i sent them an email to try and find out. That species sounds very interesting because it is supposed to have great frost tolerance, it has unique nectar smelling flowers, and it has small jet-black tomato fruits. All very interesting traits. Think it also has highly exerted stigmas ans SI.

You may have already answered this, i will have to go back reread your last post. But, what are your side project goals? Are you just intending on maintaining wild populations to continue to allow natural back-crossing? I think you teased at hinting that you are planning on trying for more natural bee hybrids with the wild tomatoes. I like your idea of planting the industrialized flowers in one group versus the non-industrialized flowers in another group. Great idea. The small galapagos and pimp. tomatoes all had tiny closed up industrial flowers in my garden.

I realized that one of the tomatoes in another pot here inside that i was not really paying much attention to other than keeping it alive has S. habrochaites type leaves-ish and smell-ish. What is strange is that i was pretty sure i planted F2 S. pennellii hybrids in that pot. So... wondering if it actually is a natural bee hybrid between the pennellii ancestry domestic and S. habrochaites... It might be.. According to this clade diagram both pennellii and habrocaites are in the same group next to each other...

 
Andrew Barney
Posts: 116
Location: Northern Colorado
29
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:The domestic-type flowering traits are highly pervasive among the offspring, By that I mean that about 90% of the offspring are reverting to domestic-type flowers rather than promiscuous flowers. It's just a numbers game at this point, so for the coming growing season, I'm intending to grow out large numbers of plants in the greenhouse in tiny pots, and selecting among them for promiscuous type flowers. The plants with promiscuous flowers can be planted together into the field. Those with industrialized flowers can be planted highly crowded into a different field, and selection among them gets to be for large or tasty fruits.

There is tremendous potential to select for fruits that are sweet, fruity, and aromatic. I might actually develop a tomato that pleases my taste buds, rather than something that is merely tolerated.

Many of these plants are huge monstrosities that seem to want to take over the garden! My selection criteria for the time being is first for promiscuity, but eventually for determinate growth habit. I'm sharing seed widely so that other people can select for what they find valuable.

The idea of using the plants promiscuity to make natural hybrids, which was suggested by John Weiland, was tried by Gilbert Fritz, who planted a Big Hill tomato surrounded by Neandermato (Solanum habrochaites). Gilbert shared seeds with me from Big Hill. I am super-excited about it.  Big Hill was my first attempt at making a promiscuous tomato. It combines my life-long favorite tasting tomato, Hillbilly, with Jagodka, my earliest and primary market tomato. Big Hill has open flowers, and is fairly susceptible to cross pollination. So last night I planted about 40 seeds provided by Gilbert. By the time they are a couple weeks old, it will be obvious if any of them are hybrids, because the leaf shape of Neandermato will be dominant in any crosses. If I find any hybrids, it will save me a year on my breeding goals, maybe two if I can get a seedcrop grown over-winter.



I applaud the idea for selecting for new flavors and sugars and tastes. Though, i wonder how complex that may turn out to be. This year i grew out one of the strange "peach" tomatoes. It actually had peach colored flesh which was weird, but i grew it for the hairy fruit novelty. They actually had less hair or fuzz than i was hoping for. They are probably they weirdest tomato i have ever tasted. Flavor was similar to eating an aromatic flower, yet sugar was non-existent. Not really a good tomato at all despite my openness to new flavors and tastes that are not traditional tomato flavors Ie. an acidic tomato or a high-sugar tomato.

So far i like the pennellii monster plants. Quite nice to see a tomato that thrives in my soil for once!

But, this year i grew out the Aft tomatoes (LA1996), one of the precursor lines to the famous OSU blue tomato. I found it to be fantastic! The fruits really were not blue, but had some antho smudging on them. Actually made the tomatoes look kinda dirty, but it was genetics not dirt. The plant itself was a short determinate plant but produced large tomatoes with an abundant crop in my garden which is rare on all counts! I am going to keep this line as it is one of the best i have found so far. Finally know what it is like to grow some decent tomatoes. I may share some seed with you for it at some point since you like determinates so much.
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The auto-hybridizing tomato project is the breeding project that has most captured my attention the past few years. I am spending a lot of time and resources on it. A subset of that project is the Beautifully Promiscuous Tomatoes project.

The primary goal of the auto-hybridizing tomato project is to develop a line of large-fruited tomatoes, that are self-incompatible, so that every seed in every generation will be a new F1 hybrid. That will let us easily trial hundreds of thousands of new genetic combinations as possible solutions to issues like septoria, late blight, frost-resistance, insect-resistance, etc...

A corollary goal is selecting for flowers that are huge and showy, and release lots of pollen, and have exposed female parts so that pollinating insects are highly attracted to the flowers, and do a good job pollinating them.

Along the way to the primary goal, I am generating lots of varieties that meet some of the goals of the project, but not all. For example, promiscuous flowers that are self-compatible. For example, Big Hill. There are even varieties that don't meet any of the goals of the project, but are interesting all by themselves. Some of the culls from the auto-hybridizing project are getting spun off into new varieties, but I'm not focusing a lot of effort on them.

Big Hill Tomato: promiscuous flower with exerted stigma and open anther cone


Big Hill Tomato: large early, bicolor fruits



In order to fully satisfy the primary goal of this project, the self-incompatible tomatoes have to have a lot of genetic diversity within them, so that they can generate a tremendous amount of diversity when we start trialing them as solutions to the problems faced by current domestic tomatoes. That's where the wild species come in. Eventually, I intend to incorporate the genetics of the self-compatible wild species like S. cheesmanae, S. galapagense, and S. pimpinellifolium into the auto-hybridizing project. I don't expect to work on that for a few years, but in the meantime, I am selecting among the wild species for varieties that can thrive on my farm.

By growing and sharing seeds from the wild species, I am making it easier for other people to make their own contributions to this project.I am thrilled with the collaboration that is happening regarding this project. So many clever varieties and crosses are coming to me, and saving me years worth of effort. For example, it would be really clever to me to discover a naturally occurring hybrid in the seed Andrew sent: [domestic X S. pennellii] X S. habrochaites. Heck, the [domestic X pennellii] cross is a treasure all by itself. And I fully expect to find [Big Hill X S. habrochaites] crosses in the seed that Gilbert sent. Big Hill was the first successful variety to emerge from the beautifully promiscuous tomatoes project. Crossing it with S. habrochaites would have been on my list of things to do if Gilbert hadn't.

Here's an example of something that doesn't meet any of the goals of the project. It's from a hybrid between two domestic varieties, that happened on a lark, because of what pollen donor and mother happened to be available one day last winter. Some nice varieties might be isolated from among the offspring.

Chariot tomato




 
Andrew Barney
Posts: 116
Location: Northern Colorado
29
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Joseph Lofthouse wrote:A somewhat related side project that I am working on, is growing wild tomato species. One of them that I am working with is Solanum galapagense. I'm mainly selecting for plants that produce seeds in my garden. And that germinate quickly.

Eventually, I intend to incorporate the genetics of the self-compatible wild species like S. cheesmanae, S. galapagense, and S. pimpinellifolium into the auto-hybridizing project. I don't expect to work on that for a few years, but in the meantime, I am selecting among the wild species for varieties that can thrive on my farm.

By growing and sharing seeds from the wild species, I am making it easier for other people to make their own contributions to this project.I am thrilled with the collaboration that is happening regarding this project. So many clever varieties and crosses are coming to me, and saving me years worth of effort.



I added added preliminary S. peruvianum and S. habrochaites pages to my wild tomato wiki. they are in ROUGH shape. Just a few photos, no summary yet. (plan to add a separate page for the off-type LA1777 specifically down the line too). Plan to add pages for wild tomato breeding lines and hybrids too eventually and other significant lines or mutants.

Thanks to mostly Joseph Lofthouse for the photos. There will always be a need for more photos from a variety of angles, etc, and from a larger variety of contributors. But so far i'm liking how the wild tomato wiki is forming. Should be a nice resource (if only for myself) as to what the standard leaf morphology, growing habit, fruit appearance, and other traits may be for a given species.

https://biolumo.com/index.php?title=Tomato_Breeding_Database

Any and all contributors welcome!
 
                
Posts: 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hello, everyone.
I read through this very interesting post, and I'd love to do some breeding experiments on the side with wild tomatoes. At the moment I'm experimenting with breeding a cherokee purple plant which grows small, cherry tomato sized tomatoes. I hybridized it with a yellow cherry tomato grown from store-bought tomatoes, and I already have some small seedlings popping up.
Aside from these plants, I only have wild galapagos tomatos with me. These were grown from seeds acquired from rareseeds(Or baker creek heirloom). Does anyone know where I could find other wild tomato seeds like those shown in this post?
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Andrew Barney wrote:so far i'm liking how the wild tomato wiki is forming. Should be a nice resource (if only for myself) as to what the standard leaf morphology, growing habit, fruit appearance, and other traits may be for a given species.



Bwah, ha ha!!!

I've pretty much given up on the idea of a standard leaf morphology... Perhaps the only reason I thought such a thing existed was because I was so used to dealing with the very narrow genetic base of highly inbred domestic tomatoes. Here's an example of what I mean. Photos of some tomato leaves I picked today. They are part of the auto-hybridizing tomato project.

interspecies-tomato-20180712.jpg
[Thumbnail for interspecies-tomato-20180712.jpg]
descended from inter-species hybrid tomatoes
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I spent hours observing the tomatoes today. Out of about 500 plants. I put ribbons on about 30 that have traits that I want to try to keep track of long enough to save seeds for next year. I am searching for self-incompatible promiscuous flowers.  I do a lot of culling. It's especially important with promiscuous plants. I don't want them shedding pollen into the rest of the patch.

There were lots of pollinators on the tomato flowers today. They know a great flower when they see it.

peruvianum-4270.JPG
[Thumbnail for peruvianum-4270.JPG]
Beautiful promiscuity
pollinator-1.jpg
[Thumbnail for pollinator-1.jpg]
Unknown species of bee?
pollinator-2.jpg
[Thumbnail for pollinator-2.jpg]
A large bumblebee.
pollinator-3.jpg
[Thumbnail for pollinator-3.jpg]
A small bumblebee.
bumblebee-convention.JPG
[Thumbnail for bumblebee-convention.JPG]
A bumblebee convention.
culled.JPG
[Thumbnail for culled.JPG]
Culling the tomatoes
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Work on this project continued over winter. I sent seed to a grower in a warmer climate for an overwinter grow-out and hybridization, so the project advanced another generation during the winter.  

I distributed about 5000 seeds to around 100 growers in the eastern US, where blights are a huge problem. They are growing in organic conditions without treatment, looking for the most blight tolerant offspring, to return seeds to me.

I grew seedlings for about 1000 plants this spring, which I expect to transplant out into the garden this week. I also planted about 2000 seeds by direct seeding. That seems like an iffy proposition. However, some of the wild tomatoes volunteered this spring. That is exciting to me.
100_0235.JPG
[Thumbnail for 100_0235.JPG]
Beautifully Promiscuous and Tasty Tomatoes
 
Joseph Lofthouse
steward
Posts: 4538
Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
1486
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Things that I think I have learned about self-incompatible tomatoes:

  • The F1 hybrids seem to be self-incompatible. Therefore, several different pollen donors should be used, to make the initial hybrid so that there is plenty of diversity within the self-incompatible genes in later generations.


  • An easy way to tell the difference between self-compatible, and self-incompatible, is that the self-compatible set fruit on the early flowers, and the self-incompatible don't begin setting fruit until the pollinators are very active.


  • I believe that the self-compatible trait is recessive, so it can show up again in later generations even if the parents were self-incompatible.


  • Domestic tomatoes are tremendously inbred and fragile. The corollary is that there is tremendous diversity among the wild tomatoes. In leaf shape, plant types, aroma, flavors, etc.


  • I received a glowing grow report about immunity to blight from a Pennsylvania organic gardener.


  • It really sucks to combine closed up flowers with self-incompatibility.  The two traits don't work well together at all.

  • self-incompatible.0620181958-02.jpg
    [Thumbnail for self-incompatible.0620181958-02.jpg]
    Self-incompatible. Pollinators not active yet. Therefore, no fruit set.
     
    Joseph Lofthouse
    steward
    Posts: 4538
    Location: Cache Valley, zone 4b, Irrigated, 9" rain in badlands.
    1486
    • Likes 1
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Wow! Looks Like I missed updating this thread last fall. Here's some photos.
    si-inserted-beautiful-tasty.jpg
    [Thumbnail for si-inserted-beautiful-tasty.jpg]
    A super tasty and beautiful variety. Self-incompatible, but with an enclosed stigma.
    high-umami-ex-si.jpg
    [Thumbnail for high-umami-ex-si.jpg]
    High umami. Exerted stigma. Self Incompatible. An archetype of the project goals.
    habrochaites-3-lobes-0912181758-01.jpg
    [Thumbnail for habrochaites-3-lobes-0912181758-01.jpg]
    Solanum habrochaites with 3 locules. Perhaps this is a back-cross with the F1 hybrid of [domestic X wild]. Exciting!
    wildling-2018-F2.jpg
    [Thumbnail for wildling-2018-F2.jpg]
    Harvested a huge amount of bulk F2 seed. Unsorted by flower type, taste, or any other trait other than darwinian survival.
    fairy-hollow-sc-wildling.jpg
    [Thumbnail for fairy-hollow-sc-wildling.jpg]
    Fairy Hollow: The largest fruited variety. Doesn't meet any of the project goals. Fruit hollow, like a pepper.
    0822181519-01.jpg
    [Thumbnail for 0822181519-01.jpg]
    That's one clump of tomato flowers! Loving the huge blossums.
    tomato-beautifully-promiscuous.jpg
    [Thumbnail for tomato-beautifully-promiscuous.jpg]
    They really know how to put on a show.
     
    William Schlegel
    pollinator
    Posts: 422
    Location: Montana
    129
    forest garden trees
    • Mark post as helpful
    • send pies
    • Quote
    • Report post to moderator
    Neato!

    Lots of your children in my 2019 tomato patches. I included them in my direct seeding and in my transplants. Including a photo of one of the larger transplant patches. I have one special tray from your seed still inside just getting their first true leaves.
    20190608_181513.jpg
    [Thumbnail for 20190608_181513.jpg]
    2019 tomato patch
     
    Goodbye moon men. Hello tiny ad:
    September-October Homestead Skills Jamboree 2019
    https://permies.com/wiki/118704/permaculture-projects/September-October-Homestead-Skills-Jamboree
    • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
    • New Topic
    Boost this thread!