oxalates

a post in another topic piqued my interest:

Jonathan Byron wrote:
Leafy green vegetables are a win-win situation as I see it - they are low in carbs, have a reasonable content of minerals, and are rich in vitamin K (some are high in oxalates, but that is a different concern).

quite a few plants contain various oxalates in their leaves.  the most well-known are probably rhubarb, sorrel, and spinach.  it is my understanding that an awful lot of this stuff has to be eaten to cause a problem, but I'm not sure of the specifics.  so let's talk about it.

the two problems I'm aware of with oxalates are kidney stones and binding with and removing calcium from the body.

I've never encountered anybody who could trace a calcium deficiency to leafy vegetables, though I imagine that would be difficult to do.  the only folks I've known who suffered from kidney stones ate a fairly standard U.S. diet high in processed food and cheap grocery store meat.

so is this a real risk, or is it a rare problem that has somehow gotten blown way out of proportion?  or maybe something else entirely.

Silverbeet aka chard is very high in oxalates, and due to its generous growth habits, sometimes gets eaten A LOT in winter.
I've never seen any issues (although I wouldn;t know what I was looking for).
I imagine people's systems will generally let them know when they should lay off, quite possibly in the form of "I refuse to eat any more silverbeet this year. Thank goodness veggie X is finally ready".

As I understand it, most oxalates are destroyed by cooking.  I'm interested in this subject as I will be trying to grow taro in the near future.

Is the issue with taro just oxalates? Fijian friends love to cook the leaves in coconut milk, but apparenly it's vital to cook them long enough, or it feels like you've swallowed a pot scrubber.

I second Ludi Ludi's comment about cooking breaking down the oxalates--I've heard that, too.

My sister had kidney stones. I think she was taking calcium supplements, but I'm not sure. What they discovered after the fact (they being her medical doctors) is that she had such a huge vitamin D deficiency that her body did not have what it takes to absorb/utilize the calcium. So it was the MD's opinion that the lack of vit D caused calcium to build up and create the stones. She supplements the vitamin D now. We're in the cloudy Seattle area where we don't get much vitamin D and the rare times it is out here, my sis avoids it because she burns so easily!

Ludi Ludi wrote:
As I understand it, most oxalates are destroyed by cooking.  I'm interested in this subject as I will be trying to grow taro in the near future.

I can't vouch for the veracity of the content, but this website suggests that cooking will only reduce oxalate content by 5-15%.

Thanks for that info. 

According to Sally Fallon, for humans to get enough D from sun exposure, you'd have to get totally naked at high noon and lie down in full sun for a half hour - every single day.  The only source of D for us is in other animal bodies that also have good amounts of it.  D deficiencies are linked to a whole bunch of different health problems. 

Pigs are like us, and make D, but only if they're exposed to sunlight thru daily lifelong pasturing.  There's not that much D in industrially raised pigs that never see the world outside of their confined feeding operation.  There's not that much D in milk from cows eating poor quality hay, but lots of it when they're eating fresh growing grass. 

The highest concentrates of D are in sea foods, which is why a lot of naturopaths recommend a fish oil product as a dietary supplement.  It might be time for the fish oil thread......I've got some things to say about it. 

According to Sally Fallon, for humans to get enough D from sun exposure, you'd have to get totally naked at high noon and lie down in full sun for a half hour - every single day.  

I could do this, but my neighbors would object.    I suppose it would be a bit chilly in the winter, too.

tel jetson wrote:
the two problems I'm aware of with oxalates are kidney stones and binding with and removing calcium from the body.

from what I understand, the prevent calcium absorbtion, but rather than strip calcium, leave it in precipitates- stones- in the kidneys. when you eat raw rhubarb, the grit you feel is precipitate.

re: stone: I have a friend who had stones  and did the following (basically) based on his ND's recommend. and he his stone masses painlessly. He fasted for 3 days while drinking high acid juices; then a day with just olive oil. over a pint along the course of a day. Obviously its best to check with ones (reasonable) physician, and the above aint intended to fix nooone, just a tangental thought-

oxalates.

they are somewhat reduced by BOILING, but only in that they enter the water in solution, not that the chemical is actually breaking up. if the water is drank with the veges, they are still there.

steaming reduces them very little, and frying less, as hey arent suspended away from the vegetable, just heated.

taro has a specical group of oxalates called rabines. these are actully tiny dagger like crystals and are quite nasty.  the boiling in coconut milk helps bring the rabines into solution- I wonder if they use or discard the milk? the oils or someother quality of the milk may make the rabines digestible.

Taro can screw you up eaten raw, but it still takes quite a bit I hear, and its pretty much not fun trying to eat that much.

Vit Dis huge for calcium absorption. Part of my back health protocol included vit D all last winter and I keep it on call presently. I also favor with fish oils, so long as  I can meet my personal ethics while eating them. damn ethics. 

now the fun stuff. I experimented with Fat Hen as a diuretic a few years back.  fat hen is an oxalis, chenopodium album..

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2254464&l=7861f9a6cc&id=542063253

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=2254467&l=c0e4d1cc52&id=542063253

the photos dont show the final meal after a week of steadily increasing the chenopodium volume- It was about 1 gallon of raw leaves, sauted... then eaten. by themselves, plus some chives.. almost double the portions from the days before.  As a diuretic,  It did relieve me with great salubriousness.

In chemistry they had me do all kindza calculations as to what happened when you mix different elements or compounds..If you put NaO2  (baking soda) in acid or alkaline you buffer the acid or base. If you mix something acid with something alkaline the mix tends to neutralize...

So I wonder if you can mix Oxalic Acid with alkaline food and get a ho lot less Oxalic Acid?

I like greens mixed anyway so some alkaline foods that might work here are:

Garlic                           
Asparagus                                                                                                     
Fermented Veggies
Watercress
Beets
Broccoli
Brussel sprouts
Cabbage
Carrot
Cauliflower
Celery
Chard
Chlorella
Collard Greens
Cucumber
Eggplant
Kale
Kohlrabi
Lettuce
Mushrooms
Mustard Greens
Dulce
Dandelions
Edible Flowers
Onions
Parsnips (high glycemic)
Peas
Peppers
Pumpkin
Rutabaga
Sea Veggies
Spirulina
Sprouts
Squashes
Alfalfa
Barley Grass
Wheat Grass
Wild Greens


I'm not sure of the outcome- someone with a holottza more chemistry than me would have to speculate...


Alkaline list from The Wolf Clinic   http://www.thewolfeclinic.com/acidalkfoods.html

I know of one man who ate spinach almost daily and constantly suffered from kidney stones.  Also he did note that he didn't drink a lot of water.  When he started to concentrate on increasing his water the number of stones decreased.  I'm not saying its a cure though.  It just helped with this man. 

marinajade wrote:
According to Sally Fallon, for humans to get enough D from sun exposure, you'd have to get totally naked at high noon and lie down in full sun for a half hour - every single day.  The only source of D for us is in other animal bodies that also have good amounts of it.  D deficiencies are linked to a whole bunch of different health problems. 

This is kinda misleading. This might be the optimal time to get it, but its not the only time or way that you can get what you need from the sun. I agree that we need animal products to keep us optimal, but moderate expsoure during warmer months is plenty. I built a balcony off of our bedroom just for the sun bathing Everyone should try it, its very relaxing and liberating at the same time.