Tooth decay reversal diet

Now, just to warn you, this is not totally permaculture material, though it is very related, as it deals with what to grow and how to eat to be healthier.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2010/12/dr-mellanbys-tooth-decay-reversal-diet.html

Basically, the study shows that low grain intake, omnivorous diet with added vitamin D is very healthy for teeth, and can even reverse tooth decay (not advanced).

I've seen similar studies showing that a similar diet is very beneficial to health overall.

So, that should give us some clues as to what we should be growing and now growing.

Permaculture can definitely provide a healthy diet in this respect - healthier than the standard American diet.

Starches and sugars tend to increase tooth decay, and starches are often worse. Grains and meats and dairy are also associated with osteoporosis, while fruits and veggies are associated with better bone density. Vitamin K from leafy green vegetables is essential to maintaining bone matrix. Potassium and magnesium (from a variety of fruits and veggies) seem to be more important than calcium for bones and teeth.

Permaculture can definitely provide a healthy diet in this respect - healthier than the standard American diet.

Let's hope so, although that is not setting the bar very high (better than the SAD)....

Grains and meats and dairy are also associated with osteoporosis, while fruits and veggies are associated with better bone density.

Would you mind posting a source for this?  I have not seen any evidence that suggest that meat is associated with osteoporosis.  I have seen considerable evidence that meat consumption is associated with good bone density.

Vitamin D seems to be an important part of this study, as that was one variable that was changed and showed significant results.

I forgot to mention, Vitamin D is very important for other things as well. Vitamin D deficiencies have been linked to high blood pressure, type 1 diabetes, rheumatoid arthritis, heart attacks, multiple sclerosis, and various forms of cancer.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12388390

The effect of meat is not linear nor simple. If people are malnourished (including many of the elderly/frail), more protein may increase both muscle and bone health.

Potential renal acid load (PRAL) is the technical term for the acid forming potential of a diet... this type of acid must be excreted by the kidneys, and a high PRAL leads to a negative balance of calcium, magnesium, and potassium.

Dairy consumption is highest in societies that also have the highest rates of osteoporosis (Scandinavia, Britain, Canada, US, Australia). In lesser developed countries that consume only 1/4 or 1/3 as much calcium as Americans, osteoporosis is rare.  Milk and yogurt are not so high on the PRAL scale (lots of calcium and potassium), but cheese is extremely high (the whey is usually discarded or used for animal feed).

Exercise, Vitamin D, vitamin K, and fruits and veggies consistently appear as protective against osteoporosis in epidemiological studies. Eating a meat rich diet (calorie dense) not only raises the PRAL, but it displaces fruits and veggies from the diet.

GTG - More later.

Eating a meat rich diet (calorie dense) ... displaces fruits and veggies from the diet.

Wait, what? Why?  I don't see the reasoning there.  It is not an either/or type of decision.  You can eat meat AND veggies. At some point, eating too much fruit and veggies will be bad for you, as in low protein/calorie intake.

If people are malnourished (including many of the elderly/frail), more protein may increase both muscle and bone health.

Are you suggesting that if they are not malnourished that more protein may decrease muscle and bone health? 

Dairy consumption is highest in societies that also have the highest rates of osteoporosis (Scandinavia, Britain, Canada, US, Australia). In lesser developed countries that consume only 1/4 or 1/3 as much calcium as Americans, osteoporosis is rare.

Yes, but there are a lot of factors at play, there.  Lots of Americans eat sugar when they eat dairy products. They exercise less than their developing country counterparts.  They also consume large amounts of grains (cereals) with their dairy.  That type of association is not conclusive as to a relationship of dairy and osteoporosis. 

It's like saying Americans watch more TV and have more sex than Bolivians, and Bolivians have less osteoporosis, therefore TV and sex cause osteoporosis.

Vitamin D is a very good indicator for risk of osteoporosis:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/science/research/vitamin-d-and-osteopenia.shtml

Modern Americans are greatly lacking in VitD, and decent sources of VitD include animals and animal organs, and also dairy.

Magnesium is another important mineral for bone density. Serum magnesium levels are a strong predictor of bone mineral density:
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/23/6/701S

The SAD is lacking in Magnesium, even though they consume a lot of cereals. Many "natural" (not industrialized) sources of meat have considerable amounts of magnesium.

It seems like there is a balance here somewhere that keeps the PRAL at decent levels, but still provides ample supplies of VitD and Magnesium.

Jonathan Byron wrote:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12388390

This reference talks about a Western-type diet.  As far as I know that means a diet that is high in saturated fats, sucrose, red meats, 'empty' carbohydrates–junk food, and low in fresh fruits and vegetables, whole grains, seafoods, and poultry not a diet that is heavy in grains, meats and dairy.

Here is a fairly brief but comprehensive overview on "Diet, Evolution, and Aging" that is relevant to the discussion:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11842945

velacreations wrote:
Wait, what? Why?  I don't see the reasoning there.  It is not an either/or type of decision.  You can eat meat AND veggies.

Yes, certainly. I am not opposed to protein in the diet, and don't favor eliminating protein rich foods. The only problem is that adding a small volume of calorie dense food will displace a large amount of fruits and veggies. I'm not saying one cannot eat meat or other protein rich foods in any amount. I am saying that too much of these destabilize the diet, and that it takes less than most people assume.

velacreations wrote:
At some point, eating too much fruit and veggies will be bad for you, as in low protein/calorie intake.
Are you suggesting that if they are not malnourished that more protein may decrease muscle and bone health? 

Yes. Too much fruit or veggies could cause problems if one does not get enough protein, oils, etc. I am don't think the goal is an all fruit and veg (FV) diet. Most people in the west don't even meet western dietary guidelines for the meager official number of recommended servings of FV and need to eat more, but not 100% of their diet. People who eat too little protein might benefit from more meat, dairy, eggs, beans, etc.  

Yes, I am suggesting that a diet with too much protein can negatively affect bones over the long run. A high protein diet is rich in nitrogen, phosphorous, and sulfur. When these are metabolized, they form acids, and these acids must be eliminated by the kidneys. This also increases the flow of calcium, magnesium and potassium out through the kidneys. A diet with too much meat, grain, or junk food is also lower in essential bases including potassium, magnesium, and calcium. So the standard western diet is a double whammy - too little mineral base is coming in, and it generates a metabolic condition in which more base is excreted.  

velacreations wrote:
Yes, but there are a lot of factors at play, there.  Lots of Americans eat sugar when they eat dairy products. They exercise less than their developing country counterparts.  They also consume large amounts of grains (cereals) with their dairy.  That type of association is not conclusive as to a relationship of dairy and osteoporosis. 

Yes, it is a complex, multi-factor situation. But while most doctors in the west are focused only on calcium, and only on calcium intake,  there is a large body of research that indicates that calcium intake is not really effective in preventing osteoporosis.

Sugar might be one factor, but in Scandinavia (the highest dairy intake of any region, and the highest rates of osteoporosis), sugared cereals are not as common as in the US. And I don't think that whole dairy foods are that bad - milk and yogurt contain high levels of potassium and magnesium, while cheese (which stores much better and is easier to ship) is highly fractionated ... it has been stripped of much of the alkaline elements, and has a very high PRAL (~3x more than meat).  

velacreations wrote:
It's like saying Americans watch more TV and have more sex than Bolivians, and Bolivians have less osteoporosis, therefore TV and sex cause osteoporosis.

No, I don't think it is a casual, spurious correlation. There are biochemical mechanisms that have been demonstrated. The paper I cited in a previous post was one example - biochemical markers of bone resorption (breakdown) was shown to increase in humans put on a acidogenic diet.

velacreations wrote:
Vitamin D is a very good indicator for risk of osteoporosis:
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/science/research/vitamin-d-and-osteopenia.shtml

Magnesium is another important mineral for bone density. Serum magnesium levels are a strong predictor of bone mineral density:
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/full/23/6/701S

The SAD is lacking in Magnesium, even though they consume a lot of cereals. Many "natural" (not industrialized) sources of meat have considerable amounts of magnesium.

It seems like there is a balance here somewhere that keeps the PRAL at decent levels, but still provides ample supplies of VitD and Magnesium.

Yes, vitamin D is important for many things in the body, and bone maintenance is one of them... the case for more vitamin D is pretty strong as I see it. Magnesium is also critical for a thousand different things - from bones to insulin control and blood sugar

I would agree that 'modern' animal husbandry where cows are crammed onto feedlots to eat a high-grain diet leads to meat that is abnormal in many ways (n-3 vs n-6 fat composition, etc, etc) and this may play a role in human health issues.  

It is indeed a question of balance.

MikeH wrote:
This reference talks about a Western-type diet.  As far as I know that means a diet that is high in saturated fats, sucrose, red meats, 'empty' carbohydrates–junk food, and low in fresh fruits and vegetables, whole grains, seafoods, and poultry not a diet that is heavy in grains, meats and dairy.

Yes, those are part of the package. But that article specifically referenced "An acidogenic Western diet" which is defined in terms of high protein and high PRAL, low levels of potassium and magnesium relative to the  protein. And the specific counter-measure to an acidogenic diet (administration of potassium citrate as might be found in orange juice and a few hundred other fruits and veggies) improved calcium retention, lowered evidence of bone breakdown, and reduced cortisol (which could be contributing to a number of chronic diseases).

I incurred over 40 cavities while being a very well read vegan.I now go to a natropathic dentist that does a swab of my mouth bacteria to see how much grains/sugars I am eating.I pass with flying colors now as a regular meat eater and havnt had a cavity since!I actually learned about Weston Price by researching root canals and my current dentist was chosen because he refuses to give those.I eat bone broth on a very regular basis.I live in a northern region so fresh fruits and vegies are not a year round option for me(at least in volume).My dentist has many clients that are ex vegans whose teeth failed.Live food vegans are the worst cases for him with discoloration on top of failior.Its great to have the asssistents reminding me to eat healthy even if he costs more.

No, I don't think it is a casual, spurious correlation. There are biochemical mechanisms that have been demonstrated. The paper I cited in a previous post was one example - biochemical markers of bone resorption (breakdown) was shown to increase in humans put on a acidogenic diet.

It is definitely a casual correlation when you say Americans eat more meat/dairy and have more osteoporosis, therefore those foods are linked to osteoporosis.  There are literally millions of factors at play, and picking one like that is casual correlation.

Now, I agree that there are things that seem to have an effect on bone density.  But an acid diet is just one correlation, there are also mineral intakes, exercise, and much more.  Basically, it is too complex to narrow it down to one or 2 food types.

For instance, what is the effect of mineral and vitamin intake on the effects of an acidogenic diet?  Could it be that certain vitamins or minerals, or a combination of them helps to offset the effects of the acid diet?

I incurred over 40 cavities while being a very well read vegan.I now go to a natropathic dentist that does a swab of my mouth bacteria to see how much grains/sugars I am eating.I pass with flying colors now as a regular meat eater and havnt had a cavity since!I actually learned about Weston Price by researching root canals and my current dentist was chosen because he refuses to give those.I eat bone broth on a very regular basis.I live in a northern region so fresh fruits and vegies are not a year round option for me(at least in volume).My dentist has many clients that are ex vegans whose teeth failed.Live food vegans are the worst cases for him with discoloration on top of failior.Its great to have the asssistents reminding me to eat healthy even if he costs more.

I am glad to hear that you have taken your health into your own hands and moved into the direction of healthier nutrition.  Some people (both omnivores and vegetarians) stick to their "diets" even through the destruction of their health.  It is important to be flexible with nutrition (I think) and try new things to fit your situation.  Congrats to you, Mt.goat!

velacreations wrote:
It is important to be flexible with nutrition (I think) and try new things to fit your situation. 

100% agree. 

velacreations wrote:
It is definitely a casual correlation when you say Americans eat more meat/dairy and have more osteoporosis, therefore those foods are linked to osteoporosis.  There are literally millions of factors at play, and picking one like that is casual correlation.

If we were looking only at Americans, then the value of that observation would be low (perhaps zero). But when we look at hundreds of cultures around the world and find more data that fits the same pattern, and when that is used to develop an explanatory theory based on discrete, measurable physiological variables, and when that theory is tested, and it is shown that addressing the factors described in the theory has direct effects on human bone metabolism in controlled studies, then we have moved away from co-incidental correlation. Of course, that is not the only variable (exercise, vitamin D, etc are also shown to play a role) but this factor has demonstrated importance and can account for a large chunk of the variance we see. Perhaps I have not presented that entire case very well here, but this is a discussion and not a dissertation.

velacreations wrote:
For instance, what is the effect of mineral and vitamin intake on the effects of an acidogenic diet?  Could it be that certain vitamins or minerals, or a combination of them helps to offset the effects of the acid diet?

The net renal acidity of any diet affected by the intake of of non-acidic minerals, which are found primarily in fruits and veggies. In people with healthy kidneys, It is the net condition which determines if bone is catabolized or not. I'm not arguing that high protein foods are inherently bad (they are not) - but that an excess is. I would boil this perspective  down to the phrase "Adequate protein, Abundant fruits and vegetables."

Too much sodium in relation to potassium/magnesium/calcium has also been implicated in hypertension, kidney disease, bone status and other conditions... sodium intake is one factor, but it can be offset by adequate K/Mg/Ca over a certain range.  The ratio of sodium to other minerals determines how difficult it is for for cells to pump these ions across various biological membranes.

Jonathan Byron's case looks pretty solid to me, for whatever that's worth.

I think it's worth pointing out that all he has suggested, as far as I can tell, is that balance is important and that epidemiological studies have borne that out.  that doesn't seem terribly controversial to me.

it also doesn't conflict with the Mellanby study originally posted about.  it does suggest that Mr. and Mrs. Mellanby didn't have the whole story, though they did understand some important parts.

Regarding the Original Post link -  I know Stephan's blog, he is a good science blogger, enjoy his stuff even if I sometimes differ.

Hi-carb diets also have a number of known problems - from tooth decay to a loss of insulin sensitivity (leading to metabolic syndrome, diabetes, heart disease, etc) .

I have benefited from going low carb for a time, but cannot maintain a strict low carb diet indefinitely. As pointed out in many of the low-carb books, potassium deficiency can be a real problem (often first signaled by leg cramps, but may have more subtle or general symptoms), and the long term issues like risk of osteoporosis and kidney stones is not well studied. I see the very low carb diets as beneficial (even life-saving in some cases) for overcoming insulin resistance, but they usually need to be linked to things like exercise, calorie restriction, and other measures to maintain optimal health.

I would also say that in general, reducing carbs in the diet by eliminating grain (as the pro-tooth diet proposes) provides more benefits than going all the way and eliminating all or almost all sweet fruit and all starchy veggies. Many of the recipes look like a modified Irish diet - still lots of potatoes.

Leafy green vegetables are a win-win situation as I see it - they are low in carbs, have a reasonable content of minerals, and are rich in vitamin K (some are high in oxalates, but that is a different concern). Starchy FVs like potatoes and bananas may be problematic for some people ... it may be that some of us just can't handle much of these. Yet there are some cultures that consume a large percent of their calories from starchy plants, yet still have decent health through their life cycle that is limited by other factors than starch in the diet. 

Osteoporosis is just one disease out of thousands. Pick a disease and their is probably a diet for it. You can't be on all of those diets all at once. You could go on a supposedly anti osteoporosis diet and get some other disease instead.
Your body responds to the situations you put it in. Carry a lot of heavy stuff or actually be heavy yourself and your body will try to strengthen the bones and muscles to carry that weight. Be lazy and your body will reduce the amount of muscle and bone. Your body is trying to work efficiently so it is constantly adding what it needs and subtracting what it doesn't need.
Sit on your bum every day reading up on the best diet to avoid osteoporosis and your body will  reduce your muscle and bone density because you're not using them and next thing you know you might have osteoporosis!    

I think you make a good point that many people look too much at diet and not at total lifestyle.  They think "I'll eat a Paleo diet " but they don't walk for 4 hours a day like a real paleolithic person.  They think "I'll eat Nourishing Traditions and I'll be all healthy!" but they aren't walking 10 miles a day or chopping wood like folks did when they were healthy on high-fat diets.  Etc (I don't mean to especially pick on those diets, but they conflict the most with our modern sedentary lifestyle, I think)

If you sit around, you're probably going to get osteoporosis no matter how you eat. 

Two things -- have any studies been done comparing a diet with pasteurized dairy products vs raw, or comparing grassfed meats vs grain fed?  I've wondered how much that has to do with some of the results these studies come up with.

Also, osteoporosis levels in Scandinavia probably (almost certainly) have a WHOLE lot more to do with low Vit. D levels than with the amount of dairy products they use.  Northern climate, dark a lot of the winter, and cold so people cover up when they do go outside.  In fact, even in the summer (going by the years I've lived in Alaska), people are probably usually covered up pretty well when they go outside, for protection from biting insects if nothing else. 

Just an anecdote, but my grandmother, who is now 97, has almost no osteoporosis.  I believe that had everything to do with how she grew up.  She was outdoors in the sunshine a lot (farm girl).  They ate lots of fresh and home-preserved fruits and vegetables, but also large amounts of raw whole dairy (it was a dairy farm) and plenty of meat, eggs, and fish (they lived on a tidal river near the ocean).  It wasn't until Grandma was in her late twenties or early thirties that her diet changed somewhat to include more store-bought foods, and even then they still ate a lot of meat (Grandad hunted and trapped for a living), fish, and fresh produce from their garden.  Many of the people she grew up with, who had similar lifestyles and diets, also have lived to good old ages in reasonably good health -- her best friend from the time they were five years old is still alive and doing well (they talk on the phone once in a while). 

I'd like to see a thorough study done that took those factors into account.  I think the results would be interesting.

Kathleen

regarding Scandinavia:
very outdoorsy cultures, in my limited experience.  plenty of time spent outdoors without excess clothing on in the long days of summer.  lots of lakes and lake houses and being unclothed in lakes.  and lots of fish in the diet.  that suggests to me that vitamin D might not be the major factor in the osteoporosis.  I can't cite any scholarly work to support that guess, though.

Mt.goat wrote:
I incurred over 40 cavities while being a very well read vegan.I now go to a natropathic dentist that does a swab of my mouth bacteria to see how much grains/sugars I am eating.I pass with flying colors now as a regular meat eater and havnt had a cavity since!I actually learned about Weston Price by researching root canals and my current dentist was chosen because he refuses to give those.I eat bone broth on a very regular basis.I live in a northern region so fresh fruits and vegies are not a year round option for me(at least in volume).My dentist has many clients that are ex vegans whose teeth failed.Live food vegans are the worst cases for him with discoloration on top of failior.Its great to have the asssistents reminding me to eat healthy even if he costs more.

I had been vegetarian and then vegan for 10 years and never went to the dentist and when I finally went the dentist said I had perfect teeth. Sweet! I don't have to go back for another ten years!

Then you are extremely happy. There are simply people with better teeth and with bad teeth. Diet and brushing make a huge difference though. I made the same experience, lived vegetarian (not vegan) for about 15 year and my teeth simply decayed. While I guess that I brush much better now, it has something to do with meat consumption too.

If you put all these scientific studies aside, and look at the history of mankind we are simply omnivorous animals. Most cultures lived omnivorous and as soon as a culture had more means meat consumption got up.
You don't change thousands of years of a diet without damage!

The sugar addition to our diet is a new one at least in those quantities. And it is very difficult for most of us to stay away from it.
Maybe many studies who show that dairy consumption is linked to illnesses are based of a modern Western diet. That means dairy consumption in form of milk over sugared cereals or sweet yogurts. These products contain about 30% of sugar and cannot be called dairy product.

Ludi Ludi wrote:
I think you make a good point that many people look too much at diet and not at total lifestyle.  They think "I'll eat a Paleo diet " but they don't walk for 4 hours a day like a real paleolithic person.  They think "I'll eat Nourishing Traditions and I'll be all healthy!" but they aren't walking 10 miles a day or chopping wood like folks did when they were healthy on high-fat diets.  Etc (I don't mean to especially pick on those diets, but they conflict the most with our modern sedentary lifestyle, I think)

I don't see how those diets conflict with a sedentary lifestyle? Many sedentary people have found their health and weight much improved since switching to those kind of diets.

ediblecities wrote:
If you put all these scientific studies aside, and look at the history of mankind we are simply omnivorous animals. Most cultures lived omnivorous and as soon as a culture had more means meat consumption got up.
You don't change thousands of years of a diet without damage!

I'm not sure if I follow you? Damage from more meat consumption?

ediblecities wrote: There are simply people with better teeth and with bad teeth.

I agree. It's a bit like how some people can smoke two packs a day, live to a very old age and never get lung cancer yet somebody else gets can get lung cancer from passive smoking.
My missus at 50 years of age has teeth like a Hollywood star but spends about half the amount of time brushing her teeth as I do mine. Mine are not bad but they don't look as good as hers. It seems to be the luck of the draw sometimes.

I really think meat has a place in our diet. However the way meat is farmed and butchered today is cruel. And it is such a waste that people only eat the good pieces now. In supermarkets you rarely find bones or offal.

ediblecities wrote:
I really think meat has a place in our diet. However the way meat is farmed and butchered today is cruel. And it is such a waste that people only eat the good pieces now. In supermarkets you rarely find bones or offal.

Don't they find other uses for the bones and offal? I can't imagine that offal just ends up in a landfill.

Oranges have meat, apples and nuts do. Animals have flesh. It's the pieces of animal flesh, not meat. Production of meat? Come on!

Anyway, i really like these four videos, especially the first one. http://www.markusrothkranz.com/go_raw_now/morevideos.html It also covers why dandelion is such a good companion plant.

Btw, most life time vegetarians i know don't have any problems with bones and teeth.

tel jetson wrote:
regarding Scandinavia:
very outdoorsy cultures, in my limited experience.  plenty of time spent outdoors without excess clothing on in the long days of summer.  lots of lakes and lake houses and being unclothed in lakes.  and lots of fish in the diet.  that suggests to me that vitamin D might not be the major factor in the osteoporosis.  I can't cite any scholarly work to support that guess, though.

The Eskimos are among the tops in terms of vitamin D consumption (fatty fish, fish livers, blubber, meat, livers, etc). They also have high calcium intake (fish bones, marrow from mammals). The Eskimos have more osteoporosis than the Scandinavians.

I think that vitamin D is somewhat protective against osteoporosis, but vitamin D alone  cannot overcome other factors in the Eskimo diet.

I think the worst is sweet stuff, but who can resist? And it is said that honey is not better for your teeth than sugar.

Eskimos have low intakes of Magnesium, so that might be another clue.  Magnesium is very important on how calcium gets used.  It is hard to get enough Magnesium, you need to eat a lot of Almonds....

Sweets are bad, no doubt, but lots of starches are barely a step above.

Vegetarians can have issues with Vitamin D levels, not to mention other vitamins (b12, A), but vegans definitely have a hard time getting good vitamins from food.  Most vegans I know take supplements.

Vitamin deficiency in a vegan or vegetarian diet is not an isolated incident. Bad teeth is some of the lesser of the issues I've seen and heard about. I also question some of the replacements for meat (soy? that's all GM, chemical pesticide garbage)

I eat meat, instead.

I only brush when my teeth get scuzzy too, probably once every two days. Maybe I just had flouridated water as a kid....

I never eat tomorrow
what I ate today and what I ate yesterday.

Grains : one grain another grain and another grain like bread etc etc etc
are human inventions
like liters of alcohol, gallons of milk.

Milk is for calves, really!

You can eat apples, many apples from an apple tree, or many fruits from other fruit trees...
that is from a naturally grown tree, same with many nuts from one  tree.

That's why freshly pressed fruit-juices are OK, but better eat five apples a day, including the seed...

But a field of grain is very artificial, a human inventions, industrial really
so is the sum of grains turned into flour for bread.

For weeks I eat no bread;
yes, different "grains": spelt, Kamut. Quinoa, Rye, rice, different rice

I am not habituated to any type of food or drink or tea or coffee or juice
because I don't eat tomorrow what I ate today and yesterday.


Same goes for pounds of sugar and liters or gallons of honey and molasses,
all money makers from colonial trade,
but eating a sweet fruit or many different fruits per day beats them all.

Dandelion salad, nettle salad etc all goes and grows per season only...
then something else

Humans are browsers by natures, mushroom and berry and nut collectors
not industrial food consumers, food processors and manure producers for sewers.

Sugar, Salt simply don't buy it, don't eat it- there's enough of it in natural food;
the body stores poisons too!

you'll discover new tastes once withdrawal symptoms are "understood"
via natural eating...

I got a note from somebody that thinks that the vegetarians are getting picked on a bit.  I think there is a bit of truth in this concern, although I think people are doing a pretty good job of qualifying their stuff.  For the most part, I think the omnis here just outnumber the vegetarians. 

So, I would like to ask folks to word their omni posts with respect to a few things:

A)  vegetarians are attempting to live a more evolved life - respectful of other living things and and the planet in general.  Most of the omnis they know shop at safeway and dine out a macdonalds.  I think everybody here could admit that nearly all vegetarian diets are better than that type of omni diet.  It is possible that a permie-omni diet is more evolved than a typical vegetarian diet - but it is not utter fact - and it might end up being utterly false.  I think there is lot of excellent info the vegetarians can bring to the table here.

B)  Some people have tried the vegetarian path and later changed their mind.  Often, those folks want to "save" other vegetarians from their mistakes.  I think voicing concern for others along this line is valid, but let's also keep in mind that there millions of people that have thrived on a vegetarian diet for decades or even their entire life.  Therefore, while some people thrive on omni, that doesn't mean that everybody will. 

Sorry for this interruption.  I'm gonna post this in a few threads in the hopes that certain threads will be more about building collective wisdom and less about trying to convert folks.

The funny thing is, Paul, if you read some vegan posts, it's the omnis that are getting picked on, mainly because they are "immoral" or "destroying the planet" or hundreds of other claims.

I do think respect is in order for both sides, and I can admit that I sometimes attack the veggies, especially when the omni lifestyle is criticized as being unhealthy or damaging to the environment.

I will tone it down.

velacreations wrote:
The funny thing is, Paul, if you read some vegan posts, it's the omnis that are getting picked on, mainly because they are "immoral" or "destroying the planet" or hundreds of other claims.

I do think respect is in order for both sides, and I can admit that I sometimes attack the veggies, especially when the omni lifestyle is criticized as being unhealthy or damaging to the environment.

I will tone it down.

I hope that I've deleted most of that.  Going in either direction.  If I have missed anything like this (in either direction), please click on the "report to moderator" link.

You must be really fast and thorough at deleting that stuff...

i have noticed an extreme improvement in dental health since i went on a very low carb diet

AR wrote:
I never eat tomorrow
what I ate today and what I ate yesterday.

That seems like a fairly straightforward way to apply moderation to the diet, and i find myself doing this, too. I do wonder if a three+ day cycle is too much to be skipping certain types of food. Does anyone have references to studies on cyclical diets with different periods?

You can eat apples, many apples from an apple tree, or many fruits from other fruit trees...
that is from a naturally grown tree, same with many nuts from one  tree.

As much as i'd like to do that, i find that if i eat more acidic fruit than an apple a day or a small number of grapes, i get acid stomach. What do others do to control acidity in a  natural way?

Regarding tooth decay, it's actually amazing how much a fluoride rinse can do. It recalcified a couple teeth that the dentist warned me i was probably going to have to get filled by the next visit. I know that's not really a very natural practice, but i would submit that keeping one's teeth and avoiding dental procedures are worthwhile goals for your own sustainability, so those susceptible to cavities might consider a daily fluoride rinse.

Pouletic wrote:As much as i'd like to do that, i find that if i eat more acidic fruit than an apple a day or a small number of grapes, i get acid stomach. What do others do to control acidity in a  natural way?

I just eat what agrees with me and avoid what doesn't. Life is much simpler that way.

Pouletic wrote:
That seems like a fairly straightforward way to apply moderation to the diet, and i find myself doing this, too. I do wonder if a three+ day cycle is too much to be skipping certain types of food. Does anyone have references to studies on cyclical diets with different periods?

No, never moderation!

I've lost that way sixty pounds over about twenty four month...
when I felt still hungry or "sleepy" I doubled up or more on freshly pressed apple or carrot juice...

all my body fat disappeared and at about 155-160 pounds I considered my weight as balanced.

I had no salt, no sugar in the house!

I also remembered my weight when I was twenty/twenty-two years young.

Now that helped me to visualize that something went wrong some forty-five years later
and so I simply resumed what I liked when i was twenty:
we had lots of apples from our garden: I put whole milk in the Brown mixer,
added apples or carrots, a raw egg or two.

My three day rule is my answer to not to get used to any one food:
yes, when frozen blueberries are on sale I buy two or three at 450 gram
and eat all of it, defrosted of course; at first I had put some cream on,
but that bought cream is itself "enriched" with stabilizers and chemicals and doesn't taste.

You re-discover taste.
Sugar or salt "burn alike on my tongue, no fresh fruit does that, not even a freshly squeezed lemon.

I was never an exercise fanatic; that became fashionable from the sixties on...so putting on weight and its consequences was my food-intake fault.

I drink two cups of local water, boiled for one or two eggs or not for water for my two cups morning coffee,
all other thirst goes away via freshly pressed juices -fruit-or vegetable...
My Taste is different from day to day...

In the 70's I had a singing Canary. I gave him one lettuce leaf. He ate all of it, then two, then three leaves...
finally I gave him one day  a whole head of lettuce and he ate the whole head of lettuce that day.
In the 90's I had two goats and I took them across my 10 acre field in an early weedy spring,
they would sniff at the Dandelions in the middle of the field,
(a field previously seeded to chemicals and soybeans) but would not eat any.
Only ate green from the side of the field where the ditch between the neighboring fields was...

I learned from my animals what not to eat: I had no cold since the 90's...


The last dentist said, my teeth are good, but my fillings get old and should be replaced!

I have read that often arthritis is considered to be a built up reaction to a long time low level allergy, often to any or all of gluten, milk products, coffee, meat or tomatoes. Therefore, cutting these things out will help in dealing with the problem.  This is certainly so in my case, though I backslide...it's hard sometimes to stick to avoiding foods you have grown up and enjoyed  your whole life. Some of these things are replaceable (I have found a soy milk which I like, finally) but then other people put out scare stories about an imbalance of soy in the diet.

It seems as though there is always someone somewhere who can cite studies to support whatever their pet theory is. It's very hard to know what's what except to understand that people are different and what works for one may not work for another. So really maybe  all a person can do is learn what people suggest, try things that make sense to their individual situation, and see what works.