Uneven Compost Heat? Solution: Schauberger Copper Water Implosion Technology

I am experimenting with methods of controlling compost temperature passively.

For those of you who are familiar with Schauberger's work already, you'll know what I'm talking about already. It's a simple principle based on how copper heats.

If you apply heat to one part of copper, the entire piece of copper wants to heat evenly. This is why chefs love copper. Steel does not heat evenly: some of the food is undercooked, some of it is burned.

In my case, I soldered an end cap to a copper pipe, filled it with "imploded" (stirred) water, and placed a second cap (loose and not affixed) onto the other end. The loose cap means you can always change it, clean it, etc. This pipe can be inserted into a compost pile. What does it do?

The copper pipe crosses varying zones of heat in the compost pile. The copper pipe is always warmer than the cold zone and cooler than the hot zone. The water inside the copper pipe constantly stirs, accumulates heat, and wants to radiate to the cooler parts of the pile.

This is a cheap and easy way to stimulate a more vigorous self-stirring of a compost pile. I hypothesize that careful placement of one of these (or several) might mean that you would not have to turn a compost pile, but you would have a superior product as if you had turned the pile.

Yes, a twisted vortex shape would probably work better -- and if you can make them, contact me -- but there's little reason for a fancy and expensive contraption inserted into a compost pile. It is compost we're talking about after all!

It's up to you what kind of water goes inside the pipe: do you add biodynamic preparations? Or is water enough? How well does air (which obeys fluid dynamics too) work instead of water? It's too easy not to try.

Well that's interesting...  I believe compost is also highly dependent upon aeration so just getting a cold spot warm may or may not encourage it to start decomposing.  

One question though....  What is "imploded" water?  

Regarding the twisted vortex shape, how about a 10' coil of soft copper tubing?  It comes in a coil and you could just stretch it into a slinky shape, cap one end and have a spiral heat transfer device.  

Thanks for the idea!

Even with enough air, a pile rarely heats consistently. The outside will usually have more air (and often too much air) and the inside will almost always have less, but possibly more warmth. How a compost pile heats depends greatly on the care put into assembling it. Even with great care, you'll find a "perfect" zone of compost towards the outside and an unfinished zone within. If aeration is more of a problem, a copper pipe with holes punched in it would utilize the fluid dynamics of air AND the heat distribution quality of copper. Worth comparing.

There is no reason you couldn't use soft copper tubing, but extracting your investment might be tricky, especially if you don't want to damage it. I think a solid pipe is the easiest to remove and replace.

Water changes its behavior once it has been agitated enough. The effect seen when you can jars (cooling water contracts) also happens when you stir water in a vortex -- the water contracts in on itself. A pipe filled with this behaves quite differently. Hope that helps... it's a lot to address here. I recommend looking at Schauberger's work with compost, copper, and water.

People already run water through compost piles using copper, but to heat outdoor showers. The same copper pipe, shut off within the pile, can be used to circulate warmth within the pile itself. I suspect piles using this approach will need fewer "turnings"

What is the theoretical benefit of doing this?

Consistent warmth throughout means that parts won't overheat and other parts that might've cooled off will stay more active. A more homogenous final product without the burden of turning a pile physically.

Sounds like a heat pipe:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

If I were to use it for this application, I think I would run a tube down the center and connect it with a spiral that went around the outside.

I would probably take a derelict refrigerator and use that. Aerate with an auger ,the kind for planting bulbs.

Warm and aerated.

William Bronson wrote: Sounds like a heat pipe

Exactly.

Your thought of spiraling around the outside is interesting, but that would bring the overall temperature of the pile down towards ambient temperature if it is exposed to the air. If the entire contraption is buried in the compost, it would maintain even heating without heat loss. On the other hand, if you intend to lower the temperature of the pile, your way would assist in dissipating heat quickly.  

I like this, though its purpose is to remove heat (not what I personally would be after): http://smallfarms.cornell.edu/2012/10/01/compost-power/ Water alone in hoses would do this work, though water in copper would do it better (and far more expensively). When I have more results, I will share them. The single pipe will make a considerable difference.

In the diagram below is a regular compost pile. The central red area (Zone 1) has a tendency to go anaerobic & cold because of the collapsing weight of the pile and poor access to air. A simple way to handle part of that is to pile wood very airy/light substances at the core. But in order to bring the heat down from the hottest point (the peak), something that wants to move heat downward is helpful. Physically turning a pile can do this by moving the outer zone to the inside and inside to the outside. Or you can take a shortcut with a copper heat pipe, provided you have established good aeration and want to keep the humus-building thermophilic stage at its peak longer.

Some of you might already be familiar with Viktor Schauberger's recommendations for building compost piles around already established fruit trees. Such a tree already serves a number of these functions of moderating temperature (see image attached).

The gentle swaying of the tree is a perpetual aeration of the pile, maintaining an open channel from top to bottom.

Schauberger was obvious keen on copper for plows, garden tools etc. However copper also kills bacteria they even use it in hospitals for door handles to prevent infections. However does anyone know if it kills all bacteria (and fungi) or perhaps just the undesirable ones?

Henry Jabel wrote: Schauberger was obvious keen on copper for plows, garden tools etc. However copper also kills bacteria they even use it in hospitals for door handles to prevent infections. However does anyone know if it kills all bacteria (and fungi) or perhaps just the undesirable ones?

That's a good question. I do not think copper knows how to discriminate. However, once copper has turned green, I don't know if it has the same effect anymore. Copper is a stimulant in small doses, and a poison in (relatively) high doses. I will see what happens in this pile, but I can already say that it is not killing the pile so far!

Stewart Lundy wrote:

Henry Jabel wrote: Schauberger was obvious keen on copper for plows, garden tools etc. However copper also kills bacteria they even use it in hospitals for door handles to prevent infections. However does anyone know if it kills all bacteria (and fungi) or perhaps just the undesirable ones?

That's a good question. I do not think copper knows how to discriminate. However, once copper has turned green, I don't know if it has the same effect anymore. Copper is a stimulant in small doses, and a poison in (relatively) high doses. I will see what happens in this pile, but I can already say that it is not killing the pile so far!

I would think that it may not be discrimate too but interestingly if you go to Wikipedia: Antimicrobial properties of copper it gives one of the possible reasons why copper is antimicrobial.

Elevated copper levels inside a cell causes oxidative stress and the generation of hydrogen peroxide. Under these conditions, copper participates in the so-called Fenton-type reaction — a chemical reaction causing oxidative damage to cells.

Now if this is the way it works (which may be clutching at straws because you would be ignoring the other possible ways it could do it) the aerobic bacteria like oxygen and saprophytic fungi exude hydrogen peroxide which suggests they would survive. Next time I get some mushroom spawn I will put it in a polished copper based vessel and see if it survives as a very non scientific test.

Henry Jabel wrote:Elevated copper levels inside a cell causes oxidative stress and the generation of hydrogen peroxide.

I didn't know that. Thank you for sharing. Viktor Schauberger himself indicates that if you want to simulate "enlivened" water from dead well water, you can enliven water in a copper vessel with vortices OR you can put the water in the full sun OR you can add hydrogen peroxide. He considered H2O2 an important aspect of living water and your comment about copper and hydrogen peroxide reinforces that image.

This is an interesting thread. I have been into schaubergers work since finding him a year or so ago. I studied ayurvedic medicine and the parallels between electricity, magnetism, gravity etc relate to the actions of air element. Copper is highly revered in ayurveda. I also studied architecture and see how pressure is the main focus as it moves heat and moisture through walls and is the focus of proper wall material layering. One thing I did learn about copper is that the smallest amount in a river can damage salmon. And other fish. They are so sensitive that even run off from copper flashing and piping can kill them. So I wonder how we can use copper safely without harming fish and aquatic life? This is somet  by ing most people Aren’t aware of. I found this thread because I was interested in the compost diagram by schauberger and it led me here. I studied permaculture and biodynamics somewhat also. Another things I am wondering is that inherently in having hot and cold areas of a compost pile you have pressure systems developing. Hot air wants to move to cold because the molecules want space to move out. So what this inherently does is allows microorganisms to move throughout the pile. And this helps things break down faster also. My thinking would be that you don’t necessarily want an even temp. As that would keep the action stationary. You want a dynamic environment where things are moving and changing. For example in our bodies we have upward moving air, downward moving air, circulating air, air that crosses barriers (like suction) and air that causes inspiration, as in having a thought come to you. In order for stagnation to not occur, we need the 5 actions of air to contribute. Studying these actions allows you to connect w the compost heap snd know what action is required. As a ther hicks states - no matter what, everything is always working out for you.