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Pest Control: "These forums have a strict organics or better rule."

 
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Attention required: your post requires editing before being shown in the forums
"I really like most of this post. Unfortunately these forums do have a strict organics or better rule. If you could rework your post slightly to remove the endorsement of poisons it would be wonderful to have it in this discussion. "



This hit me as a little weird, so I thought it might be possibly worth taking up peoples time to discuss it.
I am not sure if quoting the original message will get this thread held in probation, so will leave that out.

As far as I am aware, permies does not force us to only talk about using organic lumber to build houses, so why should it apply to killing rodents? What good is their is making sure a rats last meal is organic?
Certified organic farms use the standard conventional rat poisons, if it is good enough for a certified organic farm why is it banned from being discussed here?
Furthermore, I just made myself, what might be considered, organic rodent poison. My post did not specify any particular type of poison. Poison definitely does not exclude Organic.

In my opinion, any talk about pest control simply has to include poisons/food based killing methods. In many instances an infestation is simply not going to be possible to treat without them.
 
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It's my understanding that a lot of common rat poisons on the market are basically vitamin D (D, D2, D3) and cause a vitamin D overdose causing hypercalcemia. vitamin D is needed for mammalian bodies to process calcium and too much D causes serious problems. To me, it seems pretty benign (in a non-toxic chemical sense) and a suitable way to control rodent problems if no cats are available, but maybe there are other problems I'm unaware of.
 
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The Publishing Standards for this site are based on Being Nice, not chatting about toxic crap and the subjective criteria of Paul's comfort zone.

I found this post where Paul mentions his stance on talking about poisons on permies.com  He says:

I just took a quick glance at the thread, and then thing that I saw that bugged me was talk about the use of poisons.  I'm against that.  To talk about using poisons, you would need to go to some other site.  Even talking about why the poisons are bad is for some other site.  This site is for talking about stuff WAY beyond organic.  



I especially like this bit "This site is for talking about stuff WAY beyond organic. "

 
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I haven't read the particular thread in question, but ...  

I built this site to have a place to talk about the things i like in the way i like to talk about them.  

Using a commercial poison is not something i wanna talk about.   Even if it is omri certified.  

I would rather talk about ways to get the job done without toxins.
 
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Jon, when I first started reading permies.com, I had a similar mindset as you. But over time I've come to be more "natural" or non-toxic to the environment. While resorting to using commercial rodent poisons is a definite time saving & less expensive option, it does indeed damage the environment.....perhaps in ways you haven't considered. Over the past 15 years, my farm has transitioned from using poisonous rodenticides (even those organically approved) to none.

Can rodent infections be controlled effectively without commercial toxins? In my experience, yes. But it takes a bit of effort to think it through. And a bit of effort to actually do it. Plus a change in attitude and lifestyle. In my own situation I live next to a macadamia nut farm. Daily rats are a fact of life here. So I came up with multiple ways to control rats -- cats, battery operated traps, snap traps, water traps, pit traps, rat catching dogs, and other non toxic rat traps. Rats are smart, so I really need to rotate the type of trap I use. Each helps catch several rats each week, thus keeping the numbers down. I will never be able to totally eliminate rats on the farm because of the constant source, but I can indeed keep them down to an acceptable level.
 
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Why I NEVER use poisons to kills rodents or other small pests:

Owls, falcons, snakes and other predators can and will eat the dying, poisoned animal as it wobbles around waiting to die.  They have no way of knowing that the animal is a death meal for them.

Scavenger animals will also be killed when they come across the poisoned carcass.

Since I consider predators and scavengers an important part of permaculture and I want to encourage them to thrive in my environment  -  I don't want to kill them too.  

And while I think that a neighbors loose dog is a rude and inconsiderate visitor in my yard, it is not the dogs fault and I do not want it to accidentally eat a poisoned rodent.
 
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