Sustainable dehumidification for a "dry room"
The one microclimate I don't have but would really like is a cool, dark and DRY area for storing seeds, grains, canned goods, etc. It's humidish here for 6 months of the year (dew point 55-70). I can section off an area of my basement for the purpose and seal it up to prevent air exchange, but how do I dry it out sustainably?
I could put in a tiny dehumidifier. I could rig up some kind of a desiccant (suggestions?). Are there other ways?
Thanks!
"Hundreds of years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in or the type of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that it becomes a tourist destination"
- When air cools, it loses moisture due to condensation
- When it warms, it *can* take up moisture again
- A system that cools incoming air and drains off the condensation, then allows the air to warm back up again without any exposure to another moisture source would result in drier air
- Or doesn't let the air warm up?
I dunno, as you can tell from the complete lack of facts or figures this is purely conceptual on my end. I don't know that this would work, or if it would reduce the moisture level sufficient to create the conditions you're looking for. With some knowhow and experimentation though, I would bet you could dry air simply by passing it through a length of earth tube with a well placed water catchment/drain system. Maybe taking air from a warmer part of the house and putting it through that tube (ideally in a passive flow) might yield the greatest moisture change....
Of course the whole thing would probably work better if you crammed one of those H2out style silica gel canisters in one end of the tube
(edited to include silica gel cramming)
"The highest function of ecology is the understanding of consequences."
"Cultivate gratitude; hand out seed packets"
I just checked Amazon for silica gel and they do sell big buckets of it. Some color changes when it's halfway filled with water. And you can put it in the oven to dry it back out and reuse. That could be a solution. I couldn't easily determine how dry the silica can make it in an enclosed space. And it looks like there is a pink indicating one that is safer and a blue one that has toxic gick in it.
"Hundreds of years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in or the type of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that it becomes a tourist destination"
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Reading a little bit more about condensation, I'm wondering if you might get dryer air by tilting the pipe, such that the inlet is higher than the outlet? Moist air is lighter than dry air, so that air which touches the walls of the pipe and loses moisture first would first... is that right?
I don't know if that would lead to overall dryer air or just more time between bakes for the silica gel.
Mostly I think I'm just hoping that if I say 'I don't know' enough times someone with a better understanding of fluid dynamics, gasses and humidity will come along and drop some wisdom.
*There's no place like Permies, There's no place like Permies, There's no please like Permies*
"The highest function of ecology is the understanding of consequences."
"Cultivate gratitude; hand out seed packets"
But I like the concept. For things like living areas where you already have plenty of CO2 and light they could potentially draw humidity out of the air. Neat thought!
"Hundreds of years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in or the type of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that it becomes a tourist destination"
Wool, will also absorb moisture, as will sawdust. Cedar sawdust has the added benefit of deterring moths.
Dale's picks - These are some of my favorite threads. Greed - http://www.permies.com/t/10736/md/unbridled-greed-ambition-compatible-permaculture My garden - http://www.permies.com/t/27910/projects/Dale-Day-Garden ethics - http://www.permies.com/t/11534/permaculture/frustration-ethics Good wood bad wood http://www.permies.com/t/12206/hugelkultur/Hugelkultur-Good-wood-Bad-wood Alder - http://www.permies.com/t/10609/plants/Alder-nitrogen-fixation-native-tree Bees - http://www.permies.com/t/10917/bees/time-replace-European-honey-bee Pulling nails - http://www.permies.com/t/10249/natural-building/Removing-nails-recycled-wood-techniques
I've heard of using rice for this as well. Any other common materials that I could use? Does anyone know how low a humidity level any of these materials would provide?
If I was fancy I could put the sawdust in permeable bags and cook them in the solar oven to dry them out every once in a while. If I was really fancy I could weigh the bag when it's dry and figure out when it needs to be redried by how heavy it's become.
"Hundreds of years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in or the type of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that it becomes a tourist destination"
I'm not sure how well this would work in a drier room, but it might be worth a try. Instead of using a rabbit hide, a towel could be soaked in salty water and then allowed to dry out, with the salt covering it. It could then be hung up, to allow any moisture gathered, to drip into a collection tray. The salt would never be lost, since it could be dehydrated and used again.
There's probably a special type of salt that would work better. A tray filled with rock salt, might be able to collect water. The salt could sit on some sort of screen, so that water drips down into a tray. Save this water and dry out the fluid in a separate area.
Dale's picks - These are some of my favorite threads. Greed - http://www.permies.com/t/10736/md/unbridled-greed-ambition-compatible-permaculture My garden - http://www.permies.com/t/27910/projects/Dale-Day-Garden ethics - http://www.permies.com/t/11534/permaculture/frustration-ethics Good wood bad wood http://www.permies.com/t/12206/hugelkultur/Hugelkultur-Good-wood-Bad-wood Alder - http://www.permies.com/t/10609/plants/Alder-nitrogen-fixation-native-tree Bees - http://www.permies.com/t/10917/bees/time-replace-European-honey-bee Pulling nails - http://www.permies.com/t/10249/natural-building/Removing-nails-recycled-wood-techniques
Hunker
"Hundreds of years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in or the type of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that it becomes a tourist destination"
Sawdust and planer shavings I have plenty of
If I was fancy I could put the sawdust in permeable bags and cook them in the solar oven to dry them out every once in a while.
I think this is your way to go, Mike. Wood is always seeking humidity equilibrium and shavings and sawdust have great surface area to make that energy transfer. If you could hang pillow cases (or burlap sacks might be better) from the corners of the ceiling and put one each in the corners by the floor, this would probably accomplish the task pretty easily. Rotating the 8 bags with another 8 that are in the solar drier (or something to that effect), throughout your humid season might likely be adequate to the task.
A good salt system might be a great addition to this, using the solar oven to dry the salt out as well.
Thanks team
"Hundreds of years from now it will not matter what my bank account was, the sort of house I lived in or the type of car I drove... But the world may be different because I did something so bafflingly crazy that it becomes a tourist destination"
It helps one come up with ideas that one might not have thought of. 
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