• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies living kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • raven ranson
stewards:
  • paul wheaton
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Julia Winter
garden masters:
  • Anne Miller
  • Pearl Sutton
  • thomas rubino
  • Bill Crim
  • Kim Goodwin
  • Joylynn Hardesty
gardeners:
  • Amit Enventres
  • Mike Jay
  • Dan Boone

wonky joists  RSS feed

 
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
just wanted to show off the wony joists in the additions to my house... ive got a guy coming to give me an estimate on fixing the rotted sills but i realized the other day ihave to replace all the joists as well in the back three rooms... old kitchen laundry and bathroom plus bedroom...  im kind of wanting to leave the board batton type of exterior walls that they bult when the added these rooms on , so i dont have to remove all the clap board siding and so forth i would be building out new walls inside and putting insulation and sheetrock and wiring..  but i wont be able to add a vapor barrier to the exterior of the house if i do it like this. uless i staple a vapor barrier over the old board batton part before i build out the new walls... any advice on this, would it be ok to cover these exterior walls with a vapor barrior from the inside then stud out some 2x4 walls over it put in insulation and wiring and sheetrock..??? just wondering.. thanks  this has to be the worst joist building i have ever seen smaller joists sitting in the dirt and then 2x4 joists on top of that.... (sigh).. these back rooms were definatly an afterthought.. not much went into building them properly.
26803782_539710403059512_1493498690_n-(1).jpg
[Thumbnail for 26803782_539710403059512_1493498690_n-(1).jpg]
26804119_539710756392810_220614164_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 26804119_539710756392810_220614164_n.jpg]
26855693_540183309678888_2038977190_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 26855693_540183309678888_2038977190_n.jpg]
26856818_540183263012226_302527037_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 26856818_540183263012226_302527037_n.jpg]
26856816_540183159678903_1602450064_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 26856816_540183159678903_1602450064_n.jpg]
26913676_539710606392825_1586070158_n-(1).jpg
[Thumbnail for 26913676_539710606392825_1586070158_n-(1).jpg]
26913995_539710829726136_1212077598_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 26913995_539710829726136_1212077598_n.jpg]
 
Posts: 571
Location: Bendigo , Australia
19
dog homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
What a mess!
It may pay to did out some of the soil and create some air space between the soil and the floor.
I think a whole new bearer and floor joist system may be best, with stumps etc where the existing bearers are sitting on soil.
I think by the time you try and cut and fit new to old, it would be faster and better use of labour to take it out and start and.
If you do it properly in will be insulated and rot proof.
 
gardener
Posts: 2596
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
93
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think we're all in agreement that all the joists need to be replaced. Digging out to give plenty of air space and even some crawl space if possible would be the best way to go. Just don't dig too far below exterior grade along the outside edges, so there is no tendency for the foundation to get pushed in by earth pressure.

What is the current foundation, anyway? Is there enough to shore up, or will it be easier to clear out and put in all new? It will need a shelf below the bottoms of the new joists (with flashing to keep damp from the joists).
 
gardener
Posts: 7503
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
434
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Stuff like this has helped to make me a fan of slab on grade and earthen floors. The cost of prevention is so little compared to what it will cost now to fix this mess.

Last January, I salvaged a huge amount of wood from this building. Almost all of the ceiling material was in good shape. Only a small portion of the floors turned out good, because of moisture in the dirt below. This reduced available salvage by about $10,000. If the building were being kept, it would have cost more than $100,000 to replace these floors.
20161230_140348.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20161230_140348.jpg]
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I am definitely going to go back with all new joists and joist hangers.. going to try to dig out what i can to give some crawl space under it ...  i do have some bad slope to the hill and a failing block wall that has caused a lot of the sill rot.. plus there was no gutters on the side of the house.. i had some six inch gutters made and put them up, high on one end as i could get and lowered it about five inches on the other end...needless to say it was NOT enough of a slope and my gutters were still flowing backwards due to the rotted sills and the house setting down sloping in that direction.. i ended up in the pooring rain with water filed gutters with a friend holding one end up wth a board while i hurriedly climbed on a ladder moving up and down to take them loose all but the first hanger.. i was able to connect about five hangers and the rest of the gutter had to be hung from a coat hanger on the other end of the house to get enough flow for them to work properly... hopefully once the house is leveled up and the sills replaced i can install the gutter properly..  (sigh) its been fun fun fun from the get go on this little project... LOL..  i was devastated to have to remove all the wood floors in the three back rooms.. but i was able to salvage a few of the boards to cover up some large oil furnace vents in the living room and dining room.. I  managed to wiggle out a 400 lb cast iron bathtub the other day and toss it in the yard on its side..  i am pretty much at a stand still until this contractor can come down and give me an estimate on jackingp the house and putting in the sills.. i will be doing the joists myself since i am poor.. but dont mind replacing them. i never did like to leave a project half done and this little house has had too many layers of wood to try to cover up mistakes like this in this section it will be nice to have it all put back properly..  i am aggravated at my chimney, i have called two chimney sweeps to give me an estimate on stuccoing my chimney where it sticks out the roof adding a topper and stainless liner. .. with estimates coming back at 2500 to 3800.00 with 800.00 of that to just stucco a three foot chimney, i asked the guy what that broke down to in price per square footage for stucco.. it was ridiculous, so i guess i gotta keep calling masons and getting different quotes trouble is they all charge to come out... 120.00 once and 75.00 for the last quote.. its getting expensive..  but i sure would like to use my little tempwood stove i bought to offset some of the costs of heating with propane in this little place. i may end up sticking a pipe out the wall in the right side of the back of the house where the roof dips down.(first photo) . right thru those two double windows next to the lattice on the porch.. at least i wouldn't have to have a pipe to clear the second story roofline its over 10 feet away from the tallest roofline so i cold get buy with a shorter pipe..   (sigh)..  my budget will tell if i am able t restore the chimney or cobble up a wood stove in the back of the house.. either way i want to end up using this little stove .. thanks for all the advice, i will post more photos as the project goes along its five degrees here in va this evening...  not a good time to be remodeling..  but here i am.. 
1102d8b766d4ea9d46e92e9260cd7471l-m2xd-w1020_h770_q80-Copy-Copy.jpg
[Thumbnail for 1102d8b766d4ea9d46e92e9260cd7471l-m2xd-w1020_h770_q80-Copy-Copy.jpg]
1102d8b766d4ea9d46e92e9260cd7471l-m1xd-w1020_h770_q80.jpg
[Thumbnail for 1102d8b766d4ea9d46e92e9260cd7471l-m1xd-w1020_h770_q80.jpg]
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
its difficult to see from these pics but three is a concrete ditch and a little leaning retainment wall at the back of the house it needs to be dug out and sloped away from the foundation then have another retainment wall built to keep back the dirt and water...
 
gardener
Posts: 4890
Location: Vilonia, Arkansas - Zone 7B/8A stoney, sandy loam soil pH 6.5
564
books chicken dog duck fish forest garden fungi homestead hugelkultur hunting pig
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I would recommend you get the house leveled first, at least then you won't have issues with level down the road.
Then when you are working on those new joists be sure to put a vapor barrier over the exposed soil and seal it to the foundation wall.
That will help a lot with preventing new rot.
Sadly a lot of older houses can be found to be cobbled together by unskilled workmanship and a lot of times it is better to simply demo and rebuild correctly rather than try to fix others huge errors.
I worked on a "Remodel" of a 2 million dollar house once that the owner wanted to re-work the shoddy work previously done.
This remodel ended up costing more than the 2M they paid for the house.  If they had let us do a proper demo/rebuild it would have cost them half of what they spent.

Sometimes you have to take that big step back and look at the eventual bottom line before you get in too deep to recover.

 
Dale Hodgins
gardener
Posts: 7503
Location: Victoria British Columbia-Canada
434
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have a relative who used to call me out to look at the cheapest properties in the MLS book. He always wanted an opinion on what it was worth. In most cases I would tell him that it's worth lot value, minus the cost of removing this building. He was always unhappy with the answer. Eventually, he bought one that we didn't look at together. He paid 150,000 for dilapidated place, then spent another 125,000 on repairs. He put in hundreds of unlogged work hours. When he was all done, he had a house that was worth about $200,000.
 
John C Daley
Posts: 571
Location: Bendigo , Australia
19
dog homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That house is small.
You maybe able to lift it yourself and replace the bearers [ sills]
Since its all wonky now, it will not matter too much if you twist a wall.
Jacks are not expensive and even if you only have a few, 2 0r 3, you can lift it over a wall length, then prop it with flat timer and do another wall.
Then did the stump holes, replace the timber and install the stumps.
If time is not of the essence, it may take you a month or so to do it.
In Bendigo , Australia, its 43 decrees celcius today, and we are not digging holes, I guess if its 5 degrees at your place now, the holes may also be waiting.
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
i got some good advice from everyone, wanted to reply to everyone.    Bryant.. yes i definitely agree about doing the vapor barrier on the dirt.. thanks for the advice on sealing it to the foundation i probably would not have known to do that if you haven't mentioned it. other then putting some good block under some parts of the house that were done wtih stone.. i think she is pretty good shape.. the floors are quite level cept maybe where the hearths are at in front of the fireplace.. it kind of bows up a bit there but not too bad..  the rest of the structure seems pretty good shape, my carpenter ant damage is mainly all ont he back side where all the wet issues were. you can see i will also have to dig out the bank and try to get a better drainage system in place, to ditch that water away from the foundation.. they have tried with some concrete ditches but the wall they had built is colapsing and is in need of digging back out.. i put some gutters up, but due to the house being unlevel they were flowing backwards, i had to take them down and put them back up.. they connect to the fasia board in about five places and then hang down below it using a coat hanger wrapped around a gutter hanger, its kind of cobbled up looking but the only way i could get a downhill flow on these gutters until  i can get the house leveled up,and can reintall them. currently just directing the water away with the new six inch gutters has solved a lot of the wet problems it rained the other day hard and i only had a splace or two arond the foundation where it got wet under the floor .. i could see it where i had tore everything out so it gives me a good indication of where i need to patch things.. ..
Dale,  i am fortunate that this little house was worth what i gave... . i paid 19,900.00 for it .. i am fortunate to live in an area where houses are on the cheap side... its built pretty well under the front part, huge hand hewed beams and some great brickwork.. this back part was our biggest issue on this place. i got my mother a house not n the best neighborhood but bought the place for 13000.00 her little space was 900 sq feet, it had a new roof and a heat pump, it was board batten only insulated up in the attic, but we added a set of natural gas logs, tore out her kitchen floor and re did it.. put down some click lock vinyl in the bathroom and kitchen. added six new windows and sanded the floors..  me and a cousin worked on the place spent around 10 grand on materials and its turned into a nice little cottage for her.. her bills are next to nothing 60 dollar light bills and 48 dollar gas bill per month..  i guess it depends on the area as to whether  these places are worth getting.. if they are priced too high then its not worth going for them.. here in TN and VA  houses can be snatched up all the time for less then the price of a used car...  got to be your own contractor though.. if you want to come out ahead.. ..   my current home in mount carmel i paid 110  thousand i redid the kitchen bathroom and added windows myself for around 20 grand. its got laminate counters and laminate floors ect. but the place turned out pretty good going to rent this home out for 600.00 above what my payment is and move into this little 1930's house  to start a good savings account for the future..  i paid cash for the new house and have some funds i can access for equity in my old place to make some repairs, to the new one..., the rest i will have to do as i acquire rental income and work on it as i can afford, me and a cousin are going to pull new wire and replumb and move the kitchen using used cabinets and painting them out..  eventually i want to tear out all exterior walls and insulate since there are so many windows it wont be much drywall to replace.  i have gotten pretty decent as slinging drywall thru the years although its my least favorite project. 
John.. i am considering doing the sills myself if it comes back too expensive for me to hire out.. luckily the joists all ran side to side so the house has been held up by the interior walls and such.. i  have looked into a lot of youtube videos about how to replace sills none of which had a house quite as wonky as the way mine was built.. i'm thinking i will have to place the sills from the inside as the back walls are board batten and i cannot remove the siding and boards to put in a sil without the whole house collapsing..  the walls are what its standing on now..   on the sides of the house its built normal with 2x4s and an airspace so i could remove the exterior siding and clapboards and replace the sill on the sides.. its the back part i think would need to do from inside..   i do have some thoughts about doing the other sills from the inside as well.  part of me thinks since im to be putting in all new joists anyways i might could put in those sills from the inside as well.. and then nail the siding to it from the outside..i might have to grind off a few nails and such that would b in the way but in my mind it can be done this way.. ( it don't necessarily mean i'm correct in thinking that) just what my untrained eye is telling me..)..   i got a friend coming down saturday and he took architecture in school to get his opinion if my inside joists can possibly work also get some advice on where to put some block to hold up this place..  its definatly going to be a slow process getting her put back together but nothing else i wold rather be doing..  will keep posting this project as i go along appreciate all the pep talks and advice i can get.. im goanna need it..
 
Bryant RedHawk
gardener
Posts: 4890
Location: Vilonia, Arkansas - Zone 7B/8A stoney, sandy loam soil pH 6.5
564
books chicken dog duck fish forest garden fungi homestead hugelkultur hunting pig
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
One thing you really want to make sure of is that the new joists don't sit on that drain pipe, that is a disaster waiting to happen.

Usually When I'm doing floor joists I like to have a beam at the mid point at the least. My current build of a work shop has the joists supported ever 4 feet to keep the floor level when I install the machines in there.

Redhawk
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
ive thought about digging down to give it a crawl space..   i was going to try to use some of the old drain pipes but if they get in the way of joists i may have to dig down and run lower pvc ones .. definitely going back with some pvc or pex water lines..  i like the pex because they wont burst if they freeze..    i have about three more people contacted about my chimney, hopefully i will get some realistic estimates for lining it.  if i find a good masonry company that also does retaining walls i will try to use them later  for that project as well..  my bank really needs some reshaping to direct the water away from the house it would be the best thing to happen to this little place.
 
Bryant RedHawk
gardener
Posts: 4890
Location: Vilonia, Arkansas - Zone 7B/8A stoney, sandy loam soil pH 6.5
564
books chicken dog duck fish forest garden fungi homestead hugelkultur hunting pig
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, I think water control is always the number one thing to address when there are known problems with it.

Digging down for a crawl space would also give you more room for proper pillars to support the floor joists (I've built them with both dry fit and mortared bricks on 2' thick stepping stone bases).
 
John C Daley
Posts: 571
Location: Bendigo , Australia
19
dog homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If space is tight, you may be able to hold the walls up by propping the ceiling joists, from the ground.
With the walls hanging it may be a bit easier
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Just had a friend come down who recommended that i put up pony walls and gut all walls in the addition part.. I am not confident in my ability to go quite that far, although will have pony walls in place to fix the sils i had hoped to keep the existing two walls holding up the middle bathroom..  which is currently supporting  the upstairs, .. i am suffering from a tummy infecting.. C Diff..  nasty little bug..  as soon as I get over this i will go up and rip out the rest of the sheetrock so i can take some photos and do some diagrams of how the little house was built. will post on here as i go. .. i must add that i got a reply form a local chimney repair service called Chimney Joe,  they gave me a very reasonable offer of 65 to inspect my chimney  which will be taken off the 110.00 cleaning fee if i decide to get them to clean and repair the chimney. they quoted me 100 bucks per foot for a liner, roughly 150.00 for a topper and 350.00 for some glazing and crown repair. .. simply the best, most reasonable offer i have come across in this area... i am out so far from two chimney sweeps 350.00 and have had nothing done to my chimney yet.. it was costing me 150.00 for getting an inspection from the other places.. so chimney Joe has been a breath of fresh air..     incidentally if anyone comes across this and is in the tn va area their number is 423-948-0585   most reasonable quote yet. 
 
Posts: 33
Location: Brevard, NC
6
bike chicken rabbit trees wood heat woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
In your original post, you asked about putting a vapor barrier in an existing wall.  I was exploring the same question for my house and found an article about how it is unnecessary if you use blown-in cellulose.  The cellulose prevents vapor movement through it so it prevents condensation in the walls.  That would certainly be the easiest solution for you.  Air/Vapor Barriers with Cellulose Insulation
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey glenn i was just re-reading the article, when i read it it seems as if its not calling for any vapor barrier to be used at all with cellulose , but as i look at the illustration it shows a vapor barrier on the outside of the new wall built against the old wall and then cellulose blown between that..  My walls are actually board batten, just barn like on several of the back walls which was an additioin, with straight up and down boards, followed by clapboards on the outside with vinyl over top of that.. i was planning on doubling up these wall from the inside and adding insulation, do you think from reading the article that  I should NOT. put the vapor barrier up, and use cellulose instead of fiberglass on those doubled up walls?   and i wonder if it would be ok to do fiberglass in the other regular 2x4 walls of the house if i decide to take out the interior sheetrock.. you would have to see the condition of the sheetrock to know why i'm even considering this.. i found five empty buckets of mud in the basement and it looks like they let a bunch of five year olds lose to apply it with their hands everywhere..  its got some not so nicely textured walls now thruout the entire house.. we also have to redo the wiring as well.  anyways lte me know if you think and if i was reading the article correctly.   thanks
 
Glenn Ingram
Posts: 33
Location: Brevard, NC
6
bike chicken rabbit trees wood heat woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I'm not sure I'm following your plans.  The illustration in the article is showing a vapor barrier between the 2 walls but the caption under it is saying this is unnecessary especially in warmer climates.  If you are removing the sheetrock on a wall, then you can certainly put in fiberglass with a vapor barrier to the inside and then replace the sheetrock.  That is the standard way it's done.  Vapor barrier goes to the warm side.  Good luck--it sounds like a huge project.
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
most all of my walls are regularly studded out except for this back addition that has four rooms.. its the rooms that had the sill damage and rot.. in those rooms it had board batten construction , up and down boards with no airspace. i was planning on studding those walls out from the inside to give me an area to insulate..  its there i am wanting to know about the cellulose and weather or not i should or should not put a vapor barrier between the new wall i built and the old board batton walls..  sorry if im sounding confusing.   i think my melatonin sleep meds are starting to kick in...  i will check the article out further tomorrow.. i appreciate you sending it.
 
Glenn Ingram
Posts: 33
Location: Brevard, NC
6
bike chicken rabbit trees wood heat woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If you are going to put a vapor barrier, it should be on the inside of the insulation.  So if you build a frame on the inside of the current batten wall, insulate between the studs and then add a vapor barrier with drywall or whatever interior sheathing you are using.  As the article said, you don't need that vapor barrier if you use blown-in insulation.  You may, however, want a waterproof membrane on the outside the insulation against the batten wall to act as a secondary protection against water infiltration in case you have a leak in the batten wall.  Tyvek or housewrap of something is typically used there; note that those are not vapor barriers.  It is a weird situation to attach it from the inside, though, and I'm not sure it would really do you any good.  Most leaks occur at transitions which you could not cover applying it from the inside.  You would most likely be better served making sure flashing and caulking is good on the outside of the house.

I don't know if that cleared things up or made things more confusing.
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I have had some setbacks for the last two to three weeks.. helping out inlaws and running errands i didnt get to work up at the gate city house very much..we did get to work on taking out some of the old oil furnace ducting this past three day weekend....  I now have more time to devote to fixing the problems with the house. i have had one contractor come out to give me advice,,, turns out he is does not have helpers and does jobs on his own so he may not be the person i would need to hire if i were to hire this job done..   anyways his advice was to first take out all the dirt before fixing anything,.and fix the back wall that is failing.. this is not an option for me now, i need to get the house shored up and the floors and joists put back first.  it has rained buckets since we put up the gutters on either side of the little house, six inch gutters seem to do the job carrying all the water away. i did have one spot that had a little water seap beneath the foundation in the corner.. and it looks like some quick crete would fill in the gap and fix the problem..   i have laid out a plan for fixning the little house did some scans of my plans.. tried to doodle them out to show what i plan on doing.  i hope someone out there an understand what im thinking of doing and point out any holes in my plans..   the work is to the back of the house here are the plans and a little rough sketch of the house lay out and what i plan on doing... 
img154.jpg
[Thumbnail for img154.jpg]
img155.jpg
[Thumbnail for img155.jpg]
img157.jpg
[Thumbnail for img157.jpg]
img158.jpg
[Thumbnail for img158.jpg]
img159.jpg
[Thumbnail for img159.jpg]
img160.jpg
[Thumbnail for img160.jpg]
img161.jpg
[Thumbnail for img161.jpg]
 
Posts: 134
Location: Jacksonville, FL
12
solar tiny house woodworking
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
That should work. When I make temporary walls like that I always put it together one stud at a time and cut them to length, perhaps an 1/8" or more oversize. If you need to make up for sag in the roof then you can make them longer, but it is usually pretty tough to beat in a stud that is more than 1/2" too long.

My method is to use a stud that is perhaps a few inches too short with a block of maybe 14" or more well attached and flush with the bottom. I measure from the block to the ceiling/top plate of the temporary wall and add the amount of lift I need to this number and cut a stud to this size. I can then take the short stud with block attached and lay it back a bit so the distance between the top of the block and the ceiling increases to fit the piece you just cut in between the block and the ceiling. Then simply push the short stud with block attached upright, towards the stud cut to size. It can take a bit of effort, but the leverage of 70" or more trying to lift ~1" is enough for one person to lift a roof.

If you notice the distance between the top and bottom plates of your temporary wall gradually changes along its length, then you can start at the big end and progressively shorten your cut stud as needed. Jack up the ceiling, insert a stud cut to size, and move down the line until the wall is complete. I have gotten out of a lot of jams doing this when all I had was nails and wood, and needed to lift a floor or roof.
 
gardener
Posts: 2153
Location: Northern WI (zone 4)
374
books food preservation hunting solar trees woodworking
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think you're on the right track.  I just have a couple thoughts/concerns. 

Lifting the exterior corners makes sense to me.  Lifting on a 4x4 that is connected to an interior wall may or may not work as well.  Is the top of that interior wall touching the trusses?  So when you lift it, it lifts the roof? Otherwise the wall will lift and the roof may not.

Could you just bolt the 4x4 horizontally to a few studs in the exterior wall (near the bathroom wall) and bottle jack it from there?  Once it's up and you have your temporary wall built you can take the jack away and have the work room you need.

My second question is about exterior sheathing.  When you lift at a few places, the only thing holding the wall together is the sheathing and top plates (assuming the bottom plate is useless).  So the shear forces on the sheathing are high.  Hopefully it's in good shape.  Potentially using a long 4x4 (or better a 2x10) that goes the full width of those rooms to jack against could help keep the wall together and the roof flat as it raises up.

Hopefully I'm understanding you and I hope this makes sense.
 
Glenn Herbert
gardener
Posts: 2596
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
93
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Your jacking plans look reasonable. I think that 40 ton jacks (plural) are overkill. 10 ton bottle jacks at each corner should be more than sufficient, maybe even 6 ton which are cheap. More smaller jacks will distribute the load and reduce crushing of framing or baseplates.

I would put the temporary walls as close as possible to the outside wall to reduce bending stress on the ceiling joists, while still allowing access to shore up under the outer wall.
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I knew my Permies friends would come thru for me..thanks ... lots of good advice here, i will take proper time to respond and inquire about some stuff later this evening..  i'm off now to get some supplies up to the house have to borrow a truck from a good friend to haul them.  will take some photos when im up there today to show more about the disaster im dealing with as well..   i did call a contractor he was busy hauling cabinets across a field. and couldn't talk to me but seem enthused and said he would call me back later...   i'm imagining this to be too costly to hire out...  but at least want to see if he would come in at a real reasonable price .. so that i can justify trying it myself. ..  always did hate to pay out for something.  money is tight on this little project... were talking getting it to the dry in and living for six months or so with plywood floors before i can afford to put down coverings..  just gotta do what i can afford. as i can afford to do it...   thanks again..
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
will take some photos today i managed to rip down all the sheetrock in the back bedroom most walls and ceiling, turns out the celing joists are a series of 2x4's which are about an inch or so beneath the floor joists upstairs... the floor joists side to side upstairs.. not front to back... aaaaand they are kind of slant cut on the ends where the roofline comes down there is this board five inches wide along each joist that is about an inch thick it runs the length of the upstairs floor joists and is hanging beneath them about an inch.... uhhhh???   sooo turns out the ceiling joists or upstairs floor joists are NOT holding up the roof at all... the house reminds me of a baloon frame type house if im remembering that correctly.. where the walls are built all the way up and then the upstairs floors are nailed to the walls not a downstairs wall built and then up stairs floors and then upstairs walls built on top of the floors.. that would be the usual way to build a house... soooo what this means is that the walls which are a series of boards nailed together some up and down and some sideways on top of that with the clapboards on the outside is actually whats holding up the walls..  we investigated and it looks like the house has been out of level for most of its life. as the trim upstars is cut on angle to make the top level and is cut smaller on one end along the floor... hmmmm.. quite perplexing... so it looks like i will only be able to raise my house about an inch and a half higher then the sill maybe an inch.. and if i put the temp wall in it will only serve to keep the celing joists from falling on my head.. it wont hold the structure up so much as it will serve that purpose.
   i will get some photos today so you guys can see what i am dealing with.. i will take down the bathroom celing and walls and the old kitchen celing today also as well... so we can see how the house is put together in every room...  im going to e asking a lot of my 4x4 angled side lifting posts as they will be the only thing that will actually hold up the house..  i got three 20 ton bottle jacks, they were on sale at harbor freight.. for 20 percent off, it made them quite affordable..  know its overkill getting such big jacks but twas only about twenty bucks higher per jack and they make me feel much better about this project... plus i can use them later to pick up moms little house and put a few  more cinder blocks under her bedroom floor...       more photos tonight.. probably will be late posting them..  but i cant wait for the comments on this wonky ceiling joists...  and if anyone knows of an actual name for building something this way.. other then balloon frame? then please correct me.. its someones loose interpretation of a balloon frame if its that at all....   
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
got some photos taken today to show the grid system built over the bedroom  and the way the house is built only supported by the exterior walls which are a menagerie of up and down side to side boards...  found some rot and a big of bug damage but but it seems to be confided to the rotted sills and a few select boards going sideways on the side wall that are covering the joists..  the bugs musta liked certain wood and not others..   thank goodness..   sooo my dilemma is i cannot support the ceiling with temporary walls i because of the grid built beneath the upstairs joists.. and i cannot support the upstairs joists because all they are there for is to hold down the upstairs toung and groove floor boards.. any push on those joists would just pop off all the floor boards if the house were to try to come down...  where i seem to need a temporary wall is in the middle but to the right hand side.. (old kitchen) area in the bathroom because thats where the roofline slopes down before it gets less pitched and is over the kitchen part....   this is a mystery how and why this addition was built the way that it was... its a puzzle of boards and seems to be holding together but how i do not understand... (sigh).. going to take some special treatment in each room to get the new joists in place and lots of double walls to calk and insulate to get it all shored  up again..  lest its nice to have all the sheetrock down and be able to see everything that is there... now for the million nails to be pulled out.. and everything all cleaned up... going to take a while to get things all ready..
20180225_141904.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_141904.jpg]
20180225_141917.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_141917.jpg]
20180225_141944.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_141944.jpg]
20180225_141958.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_141958.jpg]
20180225_142049.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_142049.jpg]
20180225_142101.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_142101.jpg]
20180225_142104.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_142104.jpg]
20180225_142249.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_142249.jpg]
20180225_142319.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_142319.jpg]
20180225_162137.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_162137.jpg]
20180225_181821.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_181821.jpg]
20180225_162200.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_162200.jpg]
20180225_182057.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_182057.jpg]
20180225_181947.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_181947.jpg]
20180225_182048.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_182048.jpg]
20180225_181929.jpg
[Thumbnail for 20180225_181929.jpg]
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I didnt take any photos this evening, but i screwed some 2x6,s to the bottom of the walls in the bedroom i ran a 4x4 from side to side in the corner sort of like in my drawing above only it was a bit longer it came in under the wall about at the edge of the window and on the back side it was about middle of the window i used two 20 ton jacks and they jsut kind of put some bendiness in the 4x4  a 4x4 is definatly not strong enough to get lift..   i need something to e 4 inches though because it allows me to go under the walls and lift up on that board i screwed in place..  I put TONS of 4 inch screws in those 2x6,s  i screwd to the walls so they are not going anywhere.. any suggestions on what to use to lift up the place? would 3 .. 2x4's bolted together be stronger then the single 4x4??  i still think i need to locate some steel plates to put between my jacks and the wood.. still haven't gotten those yet..   i gave up and came on home to do some research before giving it a go tomorrow...  will post more pics  soon...
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
went to a metal place today it was AWESOME...!!! got to walk thru four inches of mud in my sneakers n the rain and look thru various piles of metal untill i found three 5 x5 inch steel plates and one L shaped steel plate that was not wielded ... perfect for fitting under some boards to get some lift..   they will work perfectly for what i am needing them for to put between the jack and the wood beam when i try to lift again..  cost $1.67 for all the pieces...  i got to go back up to the house and move my 6x6 boards up a few inches to acomidate a 4x6 beam.. my 4x4 was too bendy and would not give me the lift i needed to lift the house.. i am hoping that it will lift it and not put any bends in it like the 4x4 did...   otherwise i may have to go schlepping it thru the muddy metal place again and look for a steel beam to do my lifting..     dunno what that would cost though..   more to come will post some pics soon..
 
Glenn Herbert
gardener
Posts: 2596
Location: Upstate NY, zone 5
93
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The closer you get the jacks to the ends of the 4x6, the less bending stress you will put on the middle. You could get excessive shear stress in the 4x6, though, which would make the wood split along its grain and fail that way. A couple-few 2x10s would give a more reliable beam for jacking up.
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Thanks glen since i first drew my plans out.. i have began using two jacks on each beam as close to the wall as i can get.. i was still getting some bendy stress on the 4x4 so i cut a 4x6 and turned it on its side.. i had to notch out the little piece of wood i put at the bottom to acomidate the extra two inches but I actually got about an inch and a half of lift and no stress to see on the beam i laid a level on it and it was level. i dropped it back down untill ihave somoene up there to help me..  i ended p crawling under the floor and building pylons two cap block one way and two cinderblock the other way underneath the house in a few stratigic places so it wouldnt fall in it was truly not suppored enough for my taste underneath..  but ive gotten three pylons built and plan on putting a few more before i jack this house up again this weekend..  all i want is about an inch or so of lift and then i can dig out the old beam.. which it only seems to be resting on it on one side.. the side with the studded out wall the back wall of up and down and side ways boards only is what is holding p the back part o fthe house most of the beam that was back there has rotted away by termites...  but the outside boards seem fine.. i guess they just liekd that particular brand of wood..   will take some pics soon as i get back up there. i got a heat pump today from habbitat resale store. for 500 bucks electric 3 ton inside and outside unit. lets hope it works.. i had to have my mothers worked on when we bought her house but it only cost me 450 to get it worked on.. thus far things have been pretty cheep working on the place if i dont have to hire anyone to help i will come out not owing aything on the little place..   talk to yo later. thanks again for the advice, it is much appreciated.. 
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
tried to draw a bit of a diagram i you can read my writing..  showing the failing wall.. the concrete walkway and foundation poured around the house.. the back walls of the ouse are a series of up and down boards, " which hold up the house" with clapboard on the outside and then vinly on the outside.. on the inside is some cross boards every so many feet sandwiched between another layer of up and down boards.. its the inside up and down boards that actually sits on the back beam... the one that was all rotted out..  the outside boards are sitting on the little two inch lip that is built up on the poored foundation.. holding up the entire house..    see my diagrams..  when the foundation was poored it was poured under the old hand hewed beams probably all the sidewalk around the house poured at the same time.. soooo its conformed to the hand hewn beam not level and plumb at all.. what im going back with is all pressure treated lumber.. i used a porch board as a sill plate and sat the beam on top of it and still had to put another board on top of that to catch the studs on the studded side wall.. (back wall is not studded out with air space like this.. its more barnlike in its  construction.. (sigh)..  i am going to eventually have someone slope the land all away from the house hopefully i won't have to disturb the poured walkway around it.. maybe they can skim over it and make it slope away from the house more..  but i will add drainage pipes and gravel etc... my problem is solving the low foundation issue with the poured walkway.. im thinking of building up a form around the poored foundation and adding a two inch skim coat of some concrete mix to bring the foundation up a bit...  this way i can use a sill and beam and not have to keep adding boards to it to make it come out even all the way across..  unfortunately lowes does not sell hand hewn exact pressure coated beams to match what was there sooo.. this seems like the best way to make it come out with the sill and beam all level and not tilted wonky sitting on the wonky foundation. as the foundation is not flat due to the shape of the beam it was poured under..  any ideas for putting things between or treating the foundation and walk way so that it does not act as a sponge wicking up this water onto my beam?? im using that plastic stuff you put in to take up the gaps.. its about six inches wide and then putting that tar coated metallic tape on the underside of my beam and sill to try to keep as much water as possible from wicking up...  if i repour the foundation it has to be done in sections. as i cant take out the whole beam at one time i have to jack this house up a little at a time to take out the beam that's there..    remember my inside walls do nothing to hold up the roof.. the upstairs floors hang from the walls and my inside walls downstairs only serve to hold down the joists and boards upstairs, any lift on the inside walls will just push up the floor boards upstairs..  i have to get all my lift from these outside walls..  my corner technique worked great on the end of the house.. it lifted it up about six inches it was really settled down low in that one spot.. but the rest along the back of the house only need be picked up a tiny bit to get the beam out from under the boards on the inside wall.. .. im going to use my method of attaching a 4x6 alolng the bottom of the wall and then maybe try to get creative and bold a 4x6 onto this board all the way thru the outside of thehouse placing the jacks up close to thewall andjackingit up with the foundation..  i will have to do my beams in about four to six foot sections this way.. and then screw and nail the outside boards to them.. when i put down some joists and plywood i will then build out some walls on the inside of these outside walls which will get nailed and screwed to the existing exterior walls and down to the floor holding it all together.. (fingers crossed) .. will post some pictures soon as i figure out how to get them off my phone.. my email app stopped working on the phone days ago...       thanks for everyones advice, i hope someone cal make sense of all my explaining..   and little drawing..  
img164.jpg
[Thumbnail for img164.jpg]
 
michael reace
Posts: 38
Location: Gate City Virginia
4
dog
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
been taking out sections of beam and pouring concrete over and squaring things off.. i have built up my foundations about three inches of the ground it is seeming to stay dry  now....  this is what it looks like so far...
29852907_577992205897998_896108812_n-(1).jpg
[Thumbnail for 29852907_577992205897998_896108812_n-(1).jpg]
29853359_577992662564619_374168337_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 29853359_577992662564619_374168337_n.jpg]
29853369_577992419231310_2146029215_n-(1).jpg
[Thumbnail for 29853369_577992419231310_2146029215_n-(1).jpg]
29855980_577992745897944_1366211735_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 29855980_577992745897944_1366211735_n.jpg]
29920664_577992315897987_708259579_n.jpg
[Thumbnail for 29920664_577992315897987_708259579_n.jpg]
 
I am mighty! And this is a mighty small ad:
Solar Dehydrator Plans - Combo Package download
https://permies.com/t/solar-dehydrator
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!