Tj Jefferson wrote:
From a population basis, capitalism has been the most effective system in producing the most people with their measurable needs met. Full stop.
John Saltveit wrote: Let's make our economy work for the regular people.
Trace Oswald wrote:
The way a group of 20, 30, 1000 people can live can't possibly be scaled up to support millions.
Chris Kott wrote:
On those terms, why is it impossible to formulate our application of permaculture such that it is fractal in nature, such that the much larger whole is just an assemblage of tinier identical pieces? Nature does it. Doesn't that accord with permacultural sensibility?
David Livingston wrote:...but a small question how many businesses are started each year in the USA and what % survive five years...
Chris Kott wrote: capitalism and permaculture go hand-in-hand, unless you're talking about the keynesian free-market abomination it has been turned into these days.
Dale Hodgins wrote:My fiance is from a very small and most would say, primitive community of only about 25 households on the island of Mindanao in the Philippines. Some would have us believe that small communities like this, always look after their own and that everyone receives what they need.
Her father died when she was a year old. Close relatives refused them food because this was food they could sell and then convert the money to alcohol.
She has numerous scars ranging from half an inch to 4 inch long. These are reminders of times when she got caught in the wire as a child, while stealing food from aunts, uncles and cousins, to survive. So I don't buy into the idea of the gentle hunters and farmers, always looking after those who are vulnerable. It's a nice idea, but there's no way that we can really know what happened in the distant past.
One of her relatives became widowed. She moved to the city, because there was no way she could receive any help in the village, without providing sexual services.
I doubt that this sort of behavior is isolated to the only extremely primitive village that I've ever visited.
John Saltveit wrote:Chris,
I think you're making some good points about it being easier to put down a system than to find one that works. Also about the distorted marketplace when the powerful can change the even playing field.
I'm not convinced. For most of the time humanity has existed, capitalism did not exist. Humans lived in egalitarian hunter-gatherer bands, and virtually everyone's needs were met.
I dislike the idea that anyone should be able to come along and just take and distribute my unallocated capital. That's theft.
Workers have a voice. The police don't shoot unarmed innocent black people. Let's make our economy work for the regular people.
Chris Kott wrote:It's easier to cheat an honest person than one who is wise to your scheme...
Dale Hodgins wrote:Lots of innocent people get cheated just because they trusted somebody.
Rufus Laggren wrote:Greg
"Innocents" die all the time and it doesn't make them non-innocent; by implication same goes for when they suffer through machinations of others. I am mostly sympathetic w/your theme, but reality seems a bit more complicated. Innocence may protect against bad choice (eg. the innocent may not _see_ the choice and thus can't choose it) which in turn can protect against harm. But the protection is not absolute as there is always some overwhelming stronger power somewhere that simply cuts and bends what it pleases, or some trickery that leads astray from "inside" or from another direction that the particular innocent isn't equipped to deal with. At least not through only innocence alone, by itself. Other factors become involved, are needed. It depends. Don't put your eggs all in one basket. There isn't a litmus test that allows deciding the good, bad and ugly.
John Saltveit wrote:
Right relationship — Economy based on the understanding that damage to any single part ripples outward to damage every other part of the system
Holistic wealth — The understanding that true wealth is more than just money. It can also be measured in well-being of the whole and broadly shared prosperity
Seeking balance — "A regenerative economy seeks to balance: efficiency and resilience; collaboration and competition; diversity and coherence; and small, medium and large organizations and needs. It runs directly against the (short term) "optimize" ideology that is at the root of modern financial logic"
"Edge effect" abundance — "Creativity and abundance flourish synergistically at the 'edges' of systems … For example, there is an abundance of interdependent life in salt marshes where a river meets the ocean … At those edges the opportunities for innovation and cross-fertilization are the greatest"
Robust circulatory flow of money, information, resources, goods and services
Innovation, adaptation and responsiveness
Honoring community and place — "A regenerative economy nurtures healthy and resilient communities and regions, each one uniquely informed by the essence of its individual history and place"
Educate Yourself on the Benefits of Regenerative and Biodynamic Agriculture
John Saltveit wrote:That's a really interesting question. In my experience, some people who already have your values and understand the ideas will implement them.
However, I have known a lot of people who have to see it and ask questions first.
I know others who have to examine their own practices to see what they could do.
Some need to start, little by little, doing it their way (such as Frank Sinatra).
Some people like to share what they do with you before they're willing to see what you do.
Some need to check with their spouses and friends and fit it into their schedules.
Some disagree with parts, and will start with something partly related, but partly different.
That's how we develop our culture into a living, growing community, as I see it.
John Saltveit wrote:Greg,
Your post is hard for me to understand.
Do you think someone is advocating for everyone being needy?
John Saltveit wrote:I do think it's important for everyone to contribute...
John Saltveit wrote:Greg,
I think if we could get the politicians in this country to work together to understand each other like we are, we could actually accomplish something valuable in our government.
Chris Kott wrote:If we could return governance to the concept of government...