Survival weapon

We are about to retire our Great Pyrenees from Livestock Guard Duty and bring her into the house to live out the rest of her days. She may be too old to chase coyotes and fox anymore, but I am betting we won't have to lock the door. She is pretty protective of us and our sheep. She looks rather benign, but in her seven year lifespan, she has got four notches on her collar; two for coyotes, and two for killing fox. We told our four daughters, "If anyone tries to harm you, do whatever you have to get in the barn or the pasture, the dog will protect you as best she can."

A dog is your best protection. They're more alert than we are to threats.
Aside from that just surviving an attack isn't enough. You have to completely dominate in order to come out unscathed.  12 gauge, #4 buckshot.  Accept no substitutes. You only get one shot at this.

Unfortunately all the people who hurt themselves or unintended victims with their “survival” weapons do not post their videos much. I have spent many years of my life living in and around the closest thing to “wilderness” we have as well as living in dense urban areas. You do not need a gun in either. If you want one, I suppose many people can be responsible with them and they can be useful and humane for hunting, but my point is you really don’t need a gun in any situation, they on average do not make anyone safer.

I think the question is too context based to be answered universally. We all live in different places all over the world and our survival needs are different based on each context.

However, I believe in all survival contexts, the tools we use have to be versatile and perform as many tasks as possible. Therefore, I believe the best survival "weapon" is a proven bush knife. I'm a fan of both Morakniv and Ontario Knife Company products. As has been pointed out, a knife can be transformed into more than one kind of weapon and it will perform multiple functions in a survival scenario, including defending oneself against predators. Keep in mind, in a defense situation without a firearm, you are not going to come away unscathed. So, the objective is to ... survive. I'd much rather have a trusted knife than a machete or kukri. Though the latter is a formidable alternative and can bridge the gap between machete and large knife. But to me, the machete and kukri are too heavy and bulky. I'm convinced that if you put two equally skilled knife fighters in a room and gave one a machete and one a puukko and had them go at it, the puukko wielder would survive. Once the two engaged in close hand-to-hand, the machete is less effective and the puukko could be making many slashes and stabs all while holding onto the other combatant who will then bleed out having only struck the puukko wielder one or two times. I don't know that the scenario is much different if the attacker is an animal. Yes, the mountain lion is going to cut me up pretty badly; but, I'd rather have multiple opportunities to stab and slash than one chance at a swinging or chopping motion to kill the mountain lion that is now on top of me. Yes, a firearm is a good weapon for self defense. It's pretty hard to beat when an attack is imminent. However, it really only does one thing and is heavy, expensive, requires maintenance and practice to be able to wield it well. Assuming we're not talking about firearms because we need versatile tools, I'll choose a trustworthy bush knife.

This is a short video of the bear that walked up within 5 ft of me a little bit ago up on my property. This is lower down on the mountain and the bear was eating wild onions in a dried up pond. It was aware of me there but unafraid.



The day after this video was shot, I again saw the bear on my property and it must have had a bad experience with a human. We saw eachother and I said "Hey bear" it turned and bolted top speed up the hill away from me. Sort of sad it learned to fear humans. Yet likely good for it in the long run to know all humans aren't as nice as I am.

Yet likely good for it in the long run to know all humans aren't as nice as I am.

Once a bear loses its fear of humans it usually ends up dead very soon after. Sad but true.

Mike brings up another point:

Secure food storage is vastly more important to your safety with bears around your home than any weapon is.

First thought is a 12 gauge shotgun (with lower recoil buckshot) or a machete if firearms aren't an option.

I am not worried about non-human animal threats, in this area we really don't have any. Venomous snakes are a concern but once spotted simply walking away prevents injury, and while there are packs of coyotes in the woods near the house they don't bother my dogs/chickens. I do not like the idea of hurting an animal even in self-defense but I do like weapons and believe in being prepared, as such I keep a .40 in the car, prefer a shotgun for the house and one of my dogs is an Anatolian (livestock guardian). He is a companion/house dog and obsessively vigilant when it comes to protecting his "flock".

Speaking of machetes, I stopped by the feed store to buy chicken feed the other day and they had just gotten some machetes in stock. Saw a Tramontina (only $9!) and had to get it. I have wanted one of those Brazilian machetes for a while and couldn't pass it up. That became a weekend craft project as it needed a sheath, made one out of some super thin sheet metal type stuff I had lying around and some heavy denier scraps left over from a dog bed project.  May keep it in the trunk get-home-bag as it is pretty light weight. Machetes are pretty darn handy for survival, they are great for defense, can chop wood, easily dismember a carcass etc...

I don't mean to judge if you are doing the best you can in an impossible situation, but if you feel you need a firearm at all times I hope you can get out of that situation entirely.

Ben Zumeta wrote:I don't mean to judge if you are doing the best you can in an impossible situation, but if you feel you need a firearm at all times I hope you can get out of that situation entirely.

I moved 2400 miles in order to live in a state with laws that reflected my priorities (from California to Georgia). I wanted to have the ability to live where and how I liked, in my case that means living alone in a rural area without compromising my safety or peace of mind. I also wanted to live in a place with dog friendly laws (i.e. bite laws). The police response time is 20 minutes and I am fine with that.

These days many other Americans are doing the exact same thing, picking up and moving to states/regions specifically to be surrounded by others that share the same values and lifestyles. Let's hope the differences can continue to be respected.

Lucrecia Anderson wrote:

Ben Zumeta wrote:I don't mean to judge if you are doing the best you can in an impossible situation, but if you feel you need a firearm at all times I hope you can get out of that situation entirely.

I moved 2400 miles in order to live in a state with laws that reflected my priorities (from California to Georgia). I wanted to have the ability to live where and how I liked, in my case that means living alone in a rural area without compromising my safety or peace of mind. I also wanted to live in a place with dog friendly laws (i.e. bite laws). The police response time is 20 minutes and I am fine with that.

These days many other Americans are doing the exact same thing, picking up and moving to states/regions specifically to be surrounded by others that share the same values and lifestyles. Let's hope the differences can continue to be respected.

I couldn't agree with you more.  I'm not sure of the origin of the stereotypical person hiding in a corner of a basement clutching his handgun and shaking with fear, but nothing could be further from the truth for me.  I carry a gun for the same reason I have car insurance and a first aid kit.  I'm not driving around terrified that I will be in a car accident.  Being prepared for situations that may arise makes me more relaxed, not more fearful.  A gun is just a tool, no different than a shovel, a knife, a car or a coffee  maker.  

Ben, I don't think that's a healthy survival mindset. I am not geared towards this argument because I lack innate paranoia and enthusiasm for conspiracy theory, but in a survival situation, the optimist dies.

I have mentioned earlier that I find the disambiguation of "tool" more useful in this scenario than the "weapon" of the title; I think it's more descriptive.

The tools we decide to keep and use will likely be determined by the environment in which we find ourselves. If we have raccoons in the trash on a nightly basis, I am okay with locking the bins in a 'coon-proof enclosure. If, instead, we have bears that look at us like the 'coons do, except hungrily, I think my tool of choice would have enough stopping power to kill the largest I'd see unequivocally.

If someone like Redhawk, who I consider to be quite reasonable and balanced of judgement, considers it prudent to walk around with a shotgun and a sidearm, what superior knowledge do I have that could inform him differently?

Besides, what if I want to rely on a firearm as my means of self-protection? Any animals that see you regularly, especially ones that see you use the magic boomstick of death, will probably keep a wide berth unless there's something wrong with them, or at extreme need; in those cases, you'd want to cull them anyways. They should fear us enough for us to be able to avoid eachother.

What if some of us might prefer that environment to one where the predators walk right next to us? For the most part, those of us in society who don't carry firearms are trusting that the police can be where we need them at all times, can exercise correct judgement, and act justly. I can understand how some might prefer to live with more control over their own safety, though it comes at the cost of taking on that responsibility themselves.

To flip the question on it's head, I think it's really easy to identify some really poor survival tool or weapon choices. Earbuds connected to a phone or media player are right up there. Things like sound distraction or running away are just too narrowly focused in their utility. With my luck, the time I'm stuck with an airhorn, I'd bump into a hungry deaf albino grizzly and her cub, and running would just make her feisty. Knives and blades of all sorts can be really excellent tools, and tools to make tools, but I would prefer to have a couple of other choices before I resort to my knife for defense; at that point, I may have already lost.

If we're pretending that "survival" actually means life and death, and I am being asked how I'd want to arm my homestead, or myself on my homestead, I would assume the worst, simply because if it happened, I wouldn't want to be caught with an airhorn against a hungry deaf albino grizzly and her cub. I would want a handgun with stopping power. Any of the choices mentioned earlier to that end would work well; one rarely finds the need for a .50 caliber handgun. I would want a 12-gauge, for versatility, and I would want a deer rifle.

This doesn't mean that suddenly every problem will be solved with a bullet.

-CK

EDIT: And I totally forgot how I was going to end this one.

I love the LGD solution. You get a friend for life, built-in deterrent, and serious backup. I want to meet some Caucasian Mountain Shepherd puppies when the time comes, and see if they fit.

Chris Kott wrote:
I love the LGD solution. You get a friend for life, built-in deterrent, and serious backup. I want to meet some Caucasian Mountain Shepherd puppies when the time comes, and see if they fit.

LGDs are awesome dogs however they are *not* like regular domestic dogs (i.e. they were not bred to take orders from humans, but instead work independently). You are their friend not their master.

If you decide to get one, especially one of the less domesticated breeds such as a Caucasian Ovcharka, Anatolian etc... you want to educate yourself on the mindset of the breed so you can raise them up with a soft hand and maintain mutual respect. "Normal" dog training methods often backfire yet unorthodox methods work really well. The best advice I got was "He will treat you the way you treat him. If you want him to be gentle with you then be very gentle with him." They are not obedient and they don't follow orders, they are like cats in giant dog suits (fortunately they do respond well to bribery).

Having lived in the wild (only 4 months). If I had only the one weapon - Machete. Sure you can mount a knife on a stick and call it a spear, you better be damn accurate! I don't use firearms but if we had badass animals that attack I'd go for a shotgun. For the spread up close.

We have no dangerous animals except pigs, we would typically hunt them with dogs and knives. But I've seen a pig caught by a teen running then leapt and, with a single machete blow, dinner. I've taken a 5 foot shark in similar fashion. Flipped onto rock and bang, job done. I've also seen a pig, with throat cut from ear to ear, kill two dogs and then dent my steeltoe boots with a bite! Leave the big ones alone, dogs are idiots like that.

Want a trout or eel - machete. Easy dinner. Trout flicker, eels make a whoosh. Run after it!

We had a ranger came to stay in the bush with me and a Maori ranger. He told us how soft we had it, what a man he was and how in the real wilds he was a cougar wrestling bear bashing badass. He nearly drowned in 18 inches of water when I threw a small octopus at his head. Then I came back with some eel that night he wanted a turn so armed with instructions, torch, and machete - off he went. Couple hours later we searched and found him on the first creek bend up a tree. What's wrong E... e... eel! He saw an eel, dropped the torch and machete and scaled a tree. The next day he left with many threats and accusations. We smiled and waved.

He was meant to spend a month with us learning. He went into town and stayed in a hotel. Hard man.

Couldn't locate the ONE pic I wanted to send. These almost sum it up.

Humour aside, Mike, I don't find that particular line of conversation useful. The conversation became polarised fairly early on. The purpose of those memes, for the most part, seems to be to trigger anyone on the opposite side of the argument.

As soon as you polarise the argument to the extent that it has become, conversation and discourse get thrown out the window, in favour of egg-throwing. It is as uselessly simplistic to state that firearms are the only tool you need, as to state that they are unnecessary in any case; both positions are wrong.

So go ahead and argue that point against me, both sides. You'll have common ground on which to begin.

-CK

You're right. It was too much. Wasn't my intention to stir things up. Wrong place, wrong time. Adjusted it to be more in line with the thread.

Trace Oswald wrote:

Lucrecia Anderson wrote:

Ben Zumeta wrote:I don't mean to judge if you are doing the best you can in an impossible situation, but if you feel you need a firearm at all times I hope you can get out of that situation entirely.

I moved 2400 miles in order to live in a state with laws that reflected my priorities (from California to Georgia). I wanted to have the ability to live where and how I liked, in my case that means living alone in a rural area without compromising my safety or peace of mind. I also wanted to live in a place with dog friendly laws (i.e. bite laws). The police response time is 20 minutes and I am fine with that.

These days many other Americans are doing the exact same thing, picking up and moving to states/regions specifically to be surrounded by others that share the same values and lifestyles. Let's hope the differences can continue to be respected.

I couldn't agree with you more.  I'm not sure of the origin of the stereotypical person hiding in a corner of a basement clutching his handgun and shaking with fear, but nothing could be further from the truth for me.  I carry a gun for the same reason I have car insurance and a first aid kit.  I'm not driving around terrified that I will be in a car accident.  Being prepared for situations that may arise makes me more relaxed, not more fearful.  A gun is just a tool, no different than a shovel, a knife, a car or a coffee  maker.  

It's all fun and games until your gun falls out of your purse, discharges and nearly kills my mother. This actually happened, in a Starbucks. I now think people carrying guns just cuz is a bad thing.

elle sagenev wrote:
It's all fun and games until your gun falls out of your purse, discharges and nearly kills my mother. This actually happened, in a Starbucks. I now think people carrying guns just cuz is a bad thing.

Interesting. Sounds like a vintage firearm. Virtually all modern handguns are "drop safe" and will not go off when dropped a few feet. Can't imagine what the odds are for a handgun to spill out of a handbag, fall on the floor AND accidentally go off.

the animals don't scare me. The bigger they are the better I like it, cause then when I shoot them, there's a lot more food. An island means ocean, ocean means salt. So boil off a lot of sea water and have the salt in advance of killing a large critter, so the flesh is not wasted. Have the drying racks ready, too. I want to be able to shoot goats or hogs from a distance, but I also want to be able to shoot mongoose, rats, birds. So I vote for a silenced 10.5" pencil- barreled AR15 in 223, with a Ciener .22lr conversion unit. The caliber swap takes just 10 seconds. I'd want 60 gr Fed Fusion softpoints in .223 and Aquila 60 gr subsonic loads in .22lr. If you know to hold shut the bolt with your non-firing hand, the .22 sounds like a BB gun when fired thru the 223 silencer. I can reliably take deer and hogs with chest hits to 150m with the 223, and hit a mongoose, gull or rat to 40m,  This is also a superb rifle if you have to deal with a dogpack or men, of course.  I'd want a 1x6 scope in a see thru mount and luminous iron sights. I'd want a GI clamp on bipod on a free fload tube.  Such a rifle weighs just 6 lbs, the silencer and .22 unit are just 3/4 lb each. The scope and mount is 1 lb. The 223 ammo is 35 rds per lb, the .22lr is 100 rds to the lb. The very long .22 bullet is put up in .22 SHORT cases so that it can feed thru regular .22lr box mags. i'd want 100 rds of 223 if men were no issue and 1000 rds of the .22 ammo. I can make a stone adze and stone hoku knife, I can't make any weapon even remotely as effective as this rifle. I want a 100 rd drum for the 223, cause I can gut it and use it as a container. I can make a hoku knife out of the ejection port cover, and I can make LOTS of hooks out of the magazine spring. I can start a fire with the 223, too. Pull a bullet with a green stick, split, the bullet inserted, tie the split ends, wiggle the case. save the powder. Put the bulletless rd in the chamber, muzzle pointed up, drape a cord made from my clothing, or a palm front, dry, LOOSELY down the barrel, with a dry tinder bundle at the ready. fire the shot up into the air, the cord will float to earth, smoking. Blow the ember to life in the tinder bundle.

Ben Zumeta wrote:Unfortunately all the people who hurt themselves or unintended victims with their “survival” weapons do not post their videos much. I have spent many years of my life living in and around the closest thing to “wilderness” we have as well as living in dense urban areas. You do not need a gun in either. If you want one, I suppose many people can be responsible with them and they can be useful and humane for hunting, but my point is you really don’t need a gun in any situation, they on average do not make anyone safer.

I've used a gun to stop attacks upon my person nearly a dozen times, mostly by men. I've fired once when it was men. A warning shot over the heads of 4 men. it was nighttime and they did not believe that I had a gun. That hot-handloaded .45 lit up the entire COUNTY and they got back into their car a LOT faster than they'd gotten out of it! :-) The only time I've shot for blood, I had to brain a dog with a .22, as it tried to bite my crotch. Most of the attacks came as I just walked the back roads, or back streets. The skilled hunter/shooter can collect tremendously larger amounts of food, often with ease, just by keeping a silenced M4 handy,normally with the .22lr conversion unit installed. big game normally means goodly distances, which lets you discretely install the 223 parts. Done at highest speed, the caliber swap takes 10 seconds, but done quietly, it's more like 30 seconds. Small game is likely to be encountered at close ranges, especially in  your garden, so I prefer to mostly have the shorty AR in 22lr firing mode.

Have any of you actually read gun statistics? Or just consider logically, what is the most justifiable reason for someone to shoot you? Because you are holding a gun.

People have sure answered a lot of different questions in this thread!


Bill Russell, where the heck do you live? I sincerely do not wish to visit.

My choice is a knife. It's a terrible weapon compared to a lot of the other options, but it doubles as a versatile tool. That's not the point, though. The point is it fits in my pocket. It's *always* in my pocket if it's not in my hand. It's a good folding knife, with a very strong lock, which opens as I pull it from my pocket. Very convenient for all sorts of things. Makes a scary sound and is very startling to the unsuspecting person.

There is no way I am hauling a shotgun or heavy calibre handgun around while I do all sorts of farmy things. If I know I have a problem, a gun is a nice option to grab. But it's just not reasonable, where I live, to carry full time on my own property; the threats do not warrant it. And off my property, the risk to my wellbeing if I get caught carrying outweighs any benefits. (Canada..)


Some people have said, accurately imo, that nobody wins a knife fight.

The thing is, it's not a knife fight if the other guy doesn't have one too. And if he does have one, he may have heard the same thing, and will go a different direction.

I lived in some moderately shitty areas for most of a decade, with a lot of drug dealers/users for neighbours. I never once needed to take my knife out of my pocket. I did, however, walk like someone with a weapon in my pocket.

The same little confidence boost applies to dealing with wildlife. I really do not ever want to fight a cougar with a knife. But I'd sure rather fight it with a knife than my bare hands, and I'm just not willing to carry anything bulkier 24/7 my entire life.

I went through and reviewed this discussion, and kind of wanted to add a couple of things, what with retrospect being what it is and all. I try to re-evaluate my viewpoints from time to time, either due to the input of new information, or just from reflection, or a combination of the two.
One thing that has changed is my thought on the term "weapon". For the most part, when it comes to desribing an inanimate object, I really prefer the term "tool".  All tools have a proper use and function, and it is the job of every tool user to use the proper tool for the task at hand.
A handgun has a proper, moral, legitimate function. As do rifles and shotguns. As do knives, machetes, axes, cigarette lighters and so on. The individual tool user must bear the brunt of using said tool in a moral and responsible manner.
Choosing tools for survival requires some thought ahead of time. Where are are you going, and what will you be doing? A night on the town will typically involve carrying different tools than a hike in the woods or a camping trip. Select them carefully, according to your situation, skills, weaknesses, strengths, knowledge, and company you keep, and you will probably be OK.
I guess what I'm trying to say, upon reflection, is that there is no universal "best" tool. Only that the best tool depends upon the task at hand. For example; the best tool for dealing with a two-legged predator isn't the same as one for dealing with a two-legged nuisance. or four legged in either case. Or cutting firewood in the relative comfort of your backyard vs. 10 miles in the brush where everything you have is what you carried in, and you had to choose wisely and sparsely. Experience, awareness, and planning are the primary tools that allow you to choose the best physical tools for an excursion away from home.

Dogs. I absolutely love dogs.
For me, having a dog is as necessary as having human companionship. They just make life better.
I don't necessarily want one as a protector. A dog capable of attacking a human is a very dangerous thing. IMO, more dangerous than any firearm.
However, there are scant few animals, and even fewer humans that can put the sneak on a dog. I don't need it to protect me, just to give me some advance notice that there is potential danger present.

Hopefully I've added some perspective, and not just a bunch of rambling.