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Permaculture on already forested land

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posted 13 years ago

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Hello all,

I'm interested in an establishing a permaculture, perennially/tree based farm on 1-2 acres of an 18 acre lot in South Eastern South Carolina.

The land is pretty heavily wooded and I want to focus on maintaining the current system as much as possible while implementing a greater number of productive trees.

permaculture design for established mature forest

Primary plants seen so far, are oaks, sweet gums, hickory, and Silk Trees (leguminous tree).

Lower plants appear to be poison ivy, virginia creeper, some reeds, Yaupon Holly, Wax Myrtles, and something related to blueberries (I can tell from the habits and leaf structure)

I do however plan on collecting a complete profile of the plant life on the plot very soon.

So my main question is, how would you all recommend introducing productive plants with the most minute change to the current system?

Also:

Shade-loving nitro fixing cover crops and producers?

Would chickens, bees, and/or goats be a viable option in this wooded climate?

Any advice, thoughts, and questions are much appreciated!

-Dan

The Earth Garden

Jan Sebastian Dunkelheit

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posted 13 years ago

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You can train chickens and geese to eat acorns and you can bring in new elements like currants via scions.
Chickens and geese need a lot of protection though.

Normally understory plants in the forest bloom in spring but bees need honey plants from spring to fall. If you have a couple of clearings with honey plants bees would do ok. A canopy were light comes through all the year would be better.

Ever thought about getting pigs as pioneers in the forest? You can sow honey and ground cover plants after they finished. But that would definitely hurt your established forest.

If it was a industrial monoculture forest I wouldn't mind bringing the pigs in to change it. But your forest sounds like it's worth protecting.

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Brenda Groth

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posted 13 years ago

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are you wanting to put in timber or food crops?

If you want to put in food crops I would suggest looking for areas where there are dead trees that need to come down and put in your baby fruit or nut trees in the area that will be opened up to the sun at that point.

you can put in things like berries and grapes in the "edges" berries make a great hedge around your property.

you can also plant more trees on the south side of the wooded area if there are south facing clearings.

I would suggest leaving a few dead trees standing however to support the woodpecker population as they eat tree boreres..and cleaning up your woods too thoroughly will eliminate these helpful birds

Brenda

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Roman Milford

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posted 12 years ago

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Would it be worthwhile setting up hugelkultur beds in clearings within a woodlot?
All the ingredients are certainly there.
My one concern is that they'd act as habitats for rodents.

Fred Morgan

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posted 12 years ago

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I would look at dual purpose trees and create edges myself. This way, you can have areas of forest, and also places with blackberries, etc. This is how a forest is - generally it isn't pure forest. Create some "corridors of light" and plant edge species.

Also, selective remove some trees, and bring in diversity that meets your needs, perhaps some walnuts might be good. Think very long term.

One thing to realize when you work with forest, you are working with something that will outlive you, unlike what people normally plant, which are annuals, or short lived fruit trees. It takes longer to be productive, but once they are, you or whoever is after you will be doing just fine.

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Tyler Ludens

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Roman Milford wrote:
My one concern is that they'd act as habitats for rodents.

If you include some rock piles you're likely to have snakes which will help keep the rodents down.

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Josh T-Hansen

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Location: Zone 5 Brimfield, MA

posted 12 years ago

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My first advice is find an unwooded spot. Introducing productive crops will either take a lot of tree clearing to let the sun hit the ground (those trees look tall) or else a lot of patience. And unfortunately, nitrogen fixing requires at least half-sun.
I'm no expert but doesn't look like much for goats to munch, but chickens might do ok. Not much there for bees (but they do travel long distance so places outside the 18 acres should be considered.)

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Cactusdan Hatfield wrote:
So my main question is, how would you all recommend introducing productive plants with the most minute change to the current system?

Cut down non-productive trees with dense canopies.

Make at least a few swale/hugelkulturs and plant nitrogen fixing pioneer trees and fruit trees on them.

Introduce pigs or sheep to clear out stumps and underbrush.

Plan some living fences.

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Irene Kightley

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posted 12 years ago

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Our garden looked a bit like yours - except your trees are in much better condition. We took over about 3 acres of wood and it's now extremely productive but still very wooded and wild.

We used goats to clear the scrub and brambles and make paths but they'll destroy a lot of valuable plants if they're there too long so once they'd cleared it enough for us to work in there, we moved them to pastures new. (Josh, you're right - there's not much in there.) We also use pigs to clear some areas but they leave nothing around the established trees as they root up around the roots.

sheep grazing in woodland

Brenda's idea of clearing dead or dying trees is exactly what we did and Roman Milford has already mentioned hugelkultur beds, which is what we did too.

We built a chicken shed right in the wood using the trees we cut to build it and left the stumps and roots in the shed. The chickens love it here and do a great job of clearing and adding nitrogen to the soil. We do lose some to foxes from time to time though.

roundwood shed design screening man and dog

roundwood shed design screening man and dog

The shed is now completely covered to create nesting areas, encourage insect activity and give shade. It also looks and smells beautiful.

diversity in planting food forest permaculture

diversity in planting food forest permaculture

We tried to cut as few trees as possible and where there were creepers, we used them to line pathways and line planting areas. This is an example of a strong honeysuckle which we bent over which now makes a beautiful edge to a planting area with a hazelnut tree and soft fruit. The bees love these fences.

creepers climbers lining pathways planting areas garden divisions

creepers climbers lining pathways planting areas garden divisions

honeysuckle climber as living fence garden divider

Try to take very small steps and spend time in the wood working on small projects, watching where the sun goes and how the wind is channelled, where the damp spots are, where the earth is already good - for example from a long-fallen tree. Don't be afraid to cut down a tree if it really is spoiling a plan. I dithered for ages on one or two and regret that now. Young fruit or nut trees grow very fast and soon take over the space where a less productive tree was.

Edited to say, Cj Verde - don't you type fast !

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Chris Kott

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posted 12 years ago

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Dan,

I would listen to the last few posts. My opinion would be that there would be no loss to your property if your end product produced more food. What you don't eat, and what your livestock don't eat, the wild population will. I would look to see what will grow in your area, and then plant everything. Observe what microclimates exist and plant for them, the cold-loving species in the cold spots, the heat-loving species in the hot spots. If it doesn't belong there, it will die, no worries. I personally like the idea of rows of interplanted fruit and nut trees, nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs, and berry canes and bushes, all planted up on hugelbeds, forming North-South oriented rows, either straight or squiggly, with the valleys between and up the sides of the beds planted to pastoral polyculture, with at least one ground-growing berry, cranberry or wild strawberry. If the rows are dense enough that they cannot be walked through by even a chicken, then by closing off the ends selectively, you've just created a paddock system for the chickens/pigs/goats you want to run. And by choosing a variety of early to late fruiting trees and shrubs and plants, and by creating serious woodland-to-pasture edge on either side of each bed, you're fostering serious variety and breadth of life, meaning lots of bug life (chicken food) and a nearly constant supply of flowering plants for bee food.

-CK

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Paulo Bessa

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posted 12 years ago

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Not too much experience from my side. But I would go to make some clearings, to increase the diversity of habitats, where you could also grow sun loving plants.

I would definitively plant ramps (perennial alliums) on the forest floor, they thrive so well in shady forests.

Our projects:
in Portugal, sheltered terraces facing eastwards, high water table, uphill original forest of pines, oaks and chestnuts. 2000m2
in Iceland: converted flat lawn, compacted poor soil, cold, windy, humid climate, cold, short summer. 50m2

Paulo Bessa

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posted 12 years ago

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It's not a birch (I live in "birch land"). But I don't know what this tree could be. Many trees look like this. Even several fruit trees.

Fred Berg

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Location: Connecticut: Zone 6a

posted 12 years ago

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Like others are suggesting, I would first take a careful inventory of the mature trees in the lot and make note of the ones that are
damaged or diseased and slate them for removal. If you can rent a portable sawmill then you can add value to that wood and use the
proceeds to help fund your project. I also agree that it's important to leave some blow downs and standing deadwood as they provide
shelter for a lot of wildlife. It depends on what you want to do with this land, but for me it would be to enhance and diversify wildlife
habitat (we have a lot of "maple tree desert" here in CT), so I would be thinking of it as "tuning" the forest rather than reshaping it.
You might be surprised how much sunlight can be let in with each mature tree that is cut down, and with more sunlight comes more
options for understory plants.

If you get the time, please post a progress report. I'm unable to sell my place and make a move right now, but it sounds like what you're
doing is close to what I'd like to do, so I'm very interested in how you make out.

Brenda Groth

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posted 12 years ago

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I have found a few sunnier spots in my woods and woods edges and have planted several kinds of walnuts (black, carpathian, butternut, heartnut) and also hazelnuts and apricot and pear trees and some cherries. There are black and raspberries in the woods here and mushrooms. I have been putting in seeds of perennials all through the woods and moving tree seedlings around to where I want them too. Even tossed in some nuts and rotting fruits to see if they would take root and put in seeds from bountiful gardens too.

we had a bad drought in May, June and July here but are getting rain again now so there is hope that these tree babies will continue to grow, I hope to plant more and more food crops in the woods, I want to take cuttings from hazelnuts, currants, grapes, etc and put them in the soil

Brenda

Bloom where you are planted.
http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Chris Kott

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Brenda, do you have any Mulberry locally? The reason I ask is that, as you likely know, they love the shade and are incredibly productive. The red variety is also endangered in its natural range due to hybridization with the white variety. I'm planning on making them a big part of my food forest and forage pasture plans, and I think I remember Paul including them in his podcast on eliminating feed costs for chickens.
-CK

Kyle Burdick

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posted 12 years ago

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Jan Sebastian Dunkelheit wrote:You can train chickens and geese to eat acorns and you can bring in new elements like currants via scions.
.

There is enough good information given in this post for me to add much. But please, please, please do not plant currants. They are the required, alternate host to white pine blister rust. Clearly you care about the forest, so please don't plant anything not native to your area!

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/3000/pdf/3205.pdf

Currants escape into the wild, and you do have white pine in South Carolina.

Chris Kott

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Wouldn't it be better to say that you should avoid currants if you happen to have large white pine monocrops in your area? This is just like banning plants like kudzu because in certain situations it can be problematic, when properly employed it can be a boon. The thing is, if there are currants anywhere on the migratory paths of any birds that regularly travel through an area, chances are that those birds will slowly introduce them outside of their ranges anyway, meaning that eventually, you should get them whether you like it or not. Wouldn't it make more sense to see what can be done to find controls in the form of white pine guild plants that would occupy the niche held by the currant, thereby curtailing the spread of disease by crowding out the currants in proximity to stands of white pine?
-CK

Kyle Burdick

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posted 12 years ago

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I agree that the spread of currents is nearly impossible to stop, but I don't think that's any excuse to help them out. People use the same argument for global warming emissions. Doing whats right doesn't always have good results.

Chris Kott

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While I've heard people use a similar argument for not reducing their carbon footprint, in that case it is fallacious, a sort of "what can one person do" mentality. In this case, however, I think that accepting the reality of natural patterns of the spread of species from one place to another is crucial. Otherwise one might get bogged down in an argument on what time period's native species one wishes to protect in the face of nature's progress. I love white pine, but I think if there isn't a strategy to control blister rust other than to ask people not to plant its hosts, the pines will get infected eventually. And by strategy, I mean an approach as I mentioned earlier, where you design a guild that supports white pine where they stand, adding diversity to what is usually something approaching a natural monocrop, and taking up the niche required by currants. The reason the rust is a problem is because of the growth characteristics of conifers; if one tree in a stand gets it, isn't it likely that the whole stand will become infected? If there was more diversity within the system, I bet there'd be fewer disease problems. For the future of the species, it might be best if there were a widespread outbreak of rust, as there was with Dutch elm disease, or chestnut blight with the American Chestnut. My reasoning is the following: Dutch elm disease struck in the 60s, right? Lots of trees died. I have two trees by my house, however, American Elms both, and they are each over two hundred years old, estimated by diameter-at-breast measurements of comparable trees. These trees were exposed and survived, and are pumping out seed every season, which even in an urban environment has caused seedlings to take root, and they are of blight-resistant stock. A similar project is being undertaken in New York State I recall reading in one of these threads, but with survivors of the Chestnut blight. In each case, what was essentially a severe culling happened, leaving only the hardiest stock alive. Would this not make sense for White Pines, as well, or at least to test individuals for disease resistance, so as to breed rust-resistant trees? I also think that the very fact that there are so many tree species that can succumb on such a large scale to disease just because of their own proximity to one another suggests that oak savannahs, and not forests, might prove the ideal permacultural model.

Your concern over pine, in my opinion, is a commonly held, but illogical feeling. One needs be concerned with forests, not trees. Conifers are less helpful for permaculture, in my opinion, than a wide variety of deciduous trees. I know that blueberries often are the first to pop up after a clearcut, the most extreme case, or even in small clearings made by natural falls. There are other food species that can live with such acidic conditions, but I think the choice limits the selection too much. I think that having these great big trees is great, and I like how they put so much moisture into the air in some specific cases, and I could see using this on a large scale to moderate the continental climate in south-central Ontario, but outside of giant windbreaks planted with the few berry species that will live (and their mushrooms, the reason I need conifers at all) and perhaps to occupy an unfortunate northern slope, I see much more use out of deciduous trees for the creation of human and animal food systems.

I would probably keep any mature trees that I could, deciduous or coniferous, and stands of white pine would take a priority, but if you are needing the food coming off your land to feed yourself and your family, your priority must be making sure your food plants get everything they need. If your White Pines, or your Doug Firs, are blocking out all of your sunlight, all the time, and you've already bought the property, and you need that sun, are you going to starve to save the trees?
-CK

Tim Southwell

Posts: 130

Location: Hamilton, MT

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Good evening. Seeing the title of this thread, it makes most sense that I post my question / theory to all eyes available for comment... here goes:

I have 160 acres of heavily forested pine trees in SW Montana in the Bitterroot Mountain Range. For the last 10+ years, I have used capital and muscle to institute major fire thinning practices, thereby opening the canopy and inviting native grass / shrub growth, etc, etc. As part of this process, I cut, piled and burned a number of piles of fallen pine (easily 100+ piles). Last year, I learned of Permaculture, acquired my PDC, and am now working to bring a positive transition to the property for decades to come (no more burning!).

Understanding the importance of observation in Permaculture practice, my focus has brought me back to the burnt piles of fallen timber, and what has developed on and off over the last decade. Most of these burnt piles are littered with the knobs of rotten, burnt logs that did not fire completely, a mound of left over dirt / debris, as well as an over abundance of 'lambs ear', 'thistle', 'mullen', and a few other 'weeds'. The question I pose is, can I use this to my advantage?

The idea is to plant 1 tree in each pile while guilding it with synergistic plantings. I was thinking of taking a shovel to the heart of the pile. Moving unburnt timber away, ripping up all the 'weeds' (green manure) then digging a 2' hole in the center. I would then back fill the hole with the unburnt timber (now rotten) while layering in the recently pulled 'weeds', and completing the effort with planting a fruit tree (or other). I then top dress with mulch, straw, winter rye, etc and let it go. I would then top seed in the spring with synergistic plantings to aid in moisture retention, nutrient accumulation, pollination attractants, etc, etc.

What do you think?
Will the soil elements already present be in-line with fostering growth? I figure the companion plantings would aid towards any soil amendment needs... or do I need an immediate injection of something else?
Has anyone else tried this before?

This is a project for September, so I would appreciate any / all insight on the theory for pushing this forward.

Thanks in advance,

Tim

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Cj Sloane

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I think you could leave the unburnt timber where it is. You want it to rot slowly anyway. If you don't know about hugelkulture, there is a massive thread.

Maybe post a pic of what it looks like now.

Tim Southwell wrote: I was thinking of taking a shovel to the heart of the pile. Moving unburnt timber away, ripping up all the 'weeds' (green manure) then digging a 2' hole in the center. I would then back fill the hole with the unburnt timber (now rotten) while layering in the recently pulled 'weeds', and completing the effort with planting a fruit tree (or other). I then top dress with mulch, straw, winter rye, etc and let it go. I would then top seed in the spring with synergistic plantings to aid in moisture retention, nutrient accumulation, pollination attractants, etc, etc.

What do you think?

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Tim Southwell

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Understand hugelkulture premis quite well thanks. And I believe these old burn piles have all I need to construct a hugel bed. My biggest unknown is the soil quality in old burn pile as it would be mainly ashes with some amendment over a few years of weed cycling. I take the pics and develop this further. Again, all insight into any personal experience in this is appreciated. Thanks

Tim Southwell
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Brenda Groth

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i have planted 3 baby mulberries a few years back and they are surviving but not necessarily thriving yet, one is larger than the other 2 by quite a bit.

I have planted them between baby hazelnut trees in a hedge..the hazelnuts are producing nuts this year, and one of the mulberries is about 3' tall ..the other 2 about a foot tall or so..

I plant just about every type of food bearing tree or bush or plant I can think of to "try " them..as a lot I have never eaten..I have found some that just won't grow here (I have planted paw paws 4 or 5 times, kiwi about the same number, and they just don't want to grow)..probably too cold.

I have some new to me fruits and nuts that I'll be harvesting for the first time this year even with our horrible drought (hazelnuts and medlar..one baby fruit on that one but it was just planted this year). I have planted hundreds of other trees of foods I have never tried, or never grown in the past 41 years on this property, i try to plant at least 20 or 30 trees each year, this year I planted around 100

Brenda

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http://restfultrailsfoodforestgarden.blogspot.com/

Joshua Myrvaagnes

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Any updates on any of your forests, folks? It'd be helpful to know for my community in Upstate NY, which has beeches, maples, poplars, a couple of white pines. And lots and lots and lots of water--I'm thinking we need to make hugel-swales our main priority just to keep the whole thing from washing down into the creek.

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Bryant RedHawk

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I would begin with swales dug in front of hugels, connect the swales so the water collected will not flow over the hugels and that should give you a great beginning.

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Cj Sloane

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Joshua Myrvaagnes wrote:I'm thinking we need to make hugel-swales our main priority just to keep the whole thing from washing down into the creek.

If it hasn't washed into the creek yet, it probably wont unless something changes. Swales are a great idea, you do have to be a little careful with hugels on a slope though. Don't want them to collapse during a heavy rain and wash into the creek. That would be the solution becoming the problem.

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Mark Pressler

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Thanks for all the info in this great thread. I'm also considering a heavily wooded acreage, mostly oak and shagbark hickory with a lot of understory shrubbery and small trees. I was thinking of clearing the spaces between the big trees with goats and pigs to allow for pasture establishment. Anyone have experience with this?

Cj Sloane

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Goats are a PITA and pigs are the only animals I've gotten to respect solar electric fencing. There was recently a good permaculture voices podcast on goats which makes me wonder - maybe I'll give them a second chance one day. http://www.permaculturevoices.com/rotational-grazing/goats-as-restorative-catalysts-managing-goats-for-environmental-regeneration-not-degeneration-pvp105/

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Ed Zaborski

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Regarding earlier posts discouraging the planting of currants: although currants are the required alternate host to white pine blister rust, varieties are available that are resistant -- including some black currant types. See Cornell's minor fruits webpage on Gooseberries and Currants: www.fruit.cornell.edu/mfruit/gooseberries.html

Max Madalinski

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I've had pretty a pretty good experience using goats to keep brush under control in a semi-forested landscape. What I've found is that when pasturing them in the deep woods they will quickly eat most of the leaves and bark off of whatever brush is in their pasture and open things up even in dense areas of brush so that you can get in and clear it out. One issue that can happen is that they often need to be moved very frequently or else they run out of food pretty quickly. It depends a lot on how dense the vegetation is and if it's palatable to them or not.

I haven't had any problems with the goats getting out since I upgraded to a good energizer and 42" tall fencing. It is a PITA to set up electric net in dense brushy areas though since it's always getting snagged and tangled on branches, stumps, rocks, etc., not to mention that you have to first clear lanes for the fencing through tall brush (I use a scythe, which I personally think works much better than a brush saw). If you have flatter and less stony land than me you might be able to mechanize the process with a tractor and a brush hog. I recommend shooting for larger paddocks since you can contain more overall area with less work, which is a better way to go since it is so much more difficult to set up fences this way than in a typical pasture. You will need to cut any brambles or other brushy plants off at the base after the goats have been through since the goats will tend to only eat the leaves and youngest most nutrient dense branches on the shrubs. There are also some plants in my area that the goats just don't seem to like or that they can't consume too much of (like Barberry, which they hardly touch, and Bracken Fern) which I also cut down manually after I've ran them through an area I'm trying to clear. I'm pretty sure Geoff Lawton made a good short free video about this process which is pretty accurate from my experience.

I have also known and worked with a number of farmers around my area that have used pigs to till up along the edge of their pastures and forests and sown their pasture mix in this area afterwards to pretty good effect. You might be able to get the pigs to eat up some of the roots in areas the goats have already been through, but I've never tried it and can't speak too much to how they will/won't behave in this situation.

Thom Illingworth

Posts: 26

Location: Greensboro, NC, USA

posted 9 years ago

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Hi,
For anyone with woodlands, I would highly recommend you read this book:

"Farming the woods : an integrated permaculture approach to growing food and medicinals in temperate forests"
by Ken Mudge

I just finished reading it and I'm inspired to transform my 2 acres of woodland in NC into a productive food-producing forest.
Lots of good practical advice.

Thom Illingworth

Thom Illingworth
Greensboro, NC USA

Jay Peters

Posts: 96

Location: Montreal, QC mostly. Developing in Southern New Brunswick, Canada.

posted 9 years ago

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Love this thread - I will be cutting a road into my 50 acres of mixed forest in Southern New Brunswick this summer and am excited to finally have proper access and be able to try some of what is described in here.

I definitely plan on, and recommend to any in this situation that you begin by doing some low grading...especially if you have lots of American Beech as I do (and many do in this area of the world) particularly on a sweet South West/South/South East facing, well drained and gentle slope that could be great for LOTS of more productive species. Since Beech in my area is heavily affected by a fungal blight of some kind few age much past 10-15 years before succumbing. Once they do, they are still great firewood for a time and I imagine would be decent in Hugel beds too. I intend to thin out all but the healthiest, blight free trees of which there are relatively few, to try and improve the gene pool and open up areas to get more Oaks (currently thriving on the edges), other nuts, fruit etc. going, creating some small savannah type areas, meadows, clearings and to encourage the sugar maples that often grow in tandem with Beech.

In general I think Low grading with the idea of encouraging the best genetics and opening up areas to add, maybe re-introduce species (butternut in my case) is a pretty safe, and healthy practice. The beauty of it is that you can thin partially, favouring good genetics and productive species as a woodland OR you can thin more heavily opening up and creating savannah like situation, or you open full on meadows and clearings. The more you thin the more material you have access to for creating Hugels. I have another nice spot aspect wise that is dominated with red maple and poplar that eventually I'd like to clear more thoroughly into a savannah situation. Drop the poplar right into hugels where they stand and maybe use the maples for shitake for a few years until they too end up in hugels.

The biggest piece of advice I take away from this thread and others is to take it slow and keep your eyes open.

Also - I would definitely second the recommendation for Farming the Woods. Very informative and varied information therein with lots of applicable real world examples.

good luck and have fun!
j

Do it.

Lorenzo Costa

steward

Posts: 809

Location: Italy, Siena, Gaiole in Chianti zone 9

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beautiful and interesting thread. I see many of us have similar situations, forested land and not wanting to deforest fo course we ask ourselves how to intervene.
I have 3 hectares of forest that i will not touch, leave as zone 4. but I have another 1.5 hectare that cuts my other peice of land in two. It's mannly oaks, as a canopy with a lot of juniperus communis, and other shrubs and trees, sorry now idon't rmember the latin names (writing form Italy is a bit difficult we have different names and it gets long to translate them all). Anyway I would think of creating fire roads through the property, cutting trees that you may use for fire wood for yourself or for selling, and replacing all the space you gain with productive trees, and shrubs. why not mushrooms to.
I want to put animals in the forest, with a fixed home and then move them around, but for hot summers it's ok to have them in the shade. I was thinking of housing pigs and donkeys on the forest and why not some chickens or geese.
I have had a great response planting some garlic under the trees, but wild animals eat so much I'll have to wait starting to put valuable trees otherwise I'll just throw away money. I got big problems with deer and wild pigs
I think we can design even forested land in a useful way, look up the thread written on the book farming the woods, and visit their site:
http://farmingthewoods.com/the-book/

you can get some good ideas looking around there site

how permies.com works book review grid DVD-film review grid

Bryant RedHawk

gardener

Posts: 6814

Location: Arkansas - Zone 7B/8A stoney, sandy loam soil pH 6.5

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We have such a situation on Buzzard's Roost, while we do have a little over 1.5 acres that is cleared except for the orchard, we also have lots and lots of woods.
In my overall plan I included some areas of the woods to become food forest.
Step one : removing the choking understory but leaving the trees.
Step two : removing the standing dead wood in the areas that will become food forest.
Step three : patterning the sun so we know the spaces per day sun hours and if they are full sun, partial sun or mostly shade.
Step four : plant test plants and seed, this way we will know what grows best where. this will be planted out fully the next season.

We will use goats for removal of most of the understory in these areas. Our Game and Fish and the forestry service both recommended I use controlled burns to clear out the "gunk".
Both agencies also mentioned that the understory was not historically there, that it has grown in because of fire prevention methods used since 1939 (in our area).

Most of my woods will be left as is, portions of what I'm going to use as food forest will be dedicated to the wild life we have living on and visiting our land.
It has been suggested that I fence the areas of food forest we want to keep for our food use. With all the deer we have passing through, that seems like a great idea.

Irene Kightley

pollinator

Posts: 480

Location: South West France

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We were lucky to have fenced the land for a 50 acre wild boar park project we have (Training hunters and their dogs) and the wire is buried 60cms underground and 2 metres above ground, so I've no more problems with wild boar, deer or rabbits in the garden. It's a long job putting up good fencing but it's very nice to finally have peace of mind.

To update since posting the last photos in this thread, I've spent a lot of the past few years making a garden/food forest in a forest at the back of our house and I'm finally getting to the stage where the trees have plenty of fruit and nuts and enough margins and cleared areas for growing a really good variety of all sorts of valuable plants for food, dyeing wool, medicinal use etc. It's also full of ornamentals for perfume and colour. This provides us with all year round veg, a fun place for us, our friends and our seven dogs plus about 50 free range chickens, about 15 ducks, six geese and a few turkeys. To be honest, I hardly ever go out any more, I just want to be here because there's always something to see and do.

These few photos will give you an idea of the progression of the planting, the spacing and what can be expected in terms of yields. (In our climate, on a south-facing sloping site in poor sandy soil.) I've kept the best trees - mostly oaks, chestnuts and acacia and planted larger fruit trees where there was space then planted smaller trees, shrubs, perennials, climbers and annuals where there were good growing conditions, between everything else.

Zone one in the red circle, after digging swales, making terraced beds, ponds, clearing trees and planting. The goats cleared this area and the pigs cleared most of zone two.

This is a few years later. (I tend to use only hand tools

)

We used the trees we cut mostly for building our house, for making terraces on the sloping land and for firewood. Smaller leaves and branches are used as a base for the terraces and covered with litter from our goat and chickens sheds, weeds, wool and anything else to hand.

These photos show the area inside the circle in the photo above. (Little clearing in the woods)

After felling trees and mulching
felling trees to make clearings dense woodland permaculture

felling trees to make clearings dense woodland permaculture

.

The largest tree in this group is a beautiful oak which protects many plants from the hot sun which is next to the chicken shed covered with honeysuckle and star jasmin for perfume, shade and bird nests.

Year one

Chicken shed again
Year three
chicken shed covered with honeysuckle and star jasmin for perfume, shade and bird nests.

1st year From another angle
using felled timber for garden structures

Less than a metre from the oak is a nice group of Canna, then behind, there are tomatoes and courgettes. To the right there are blackcurrants, cabbages, amaranthus and strawberries. On the left of the oak there is a plum tree (6 years old) then three metres behind this is very productive 5 year old peach tree (Peche de vigne)

2nd year
food forest garden in woodland

In this photo you can see an oak branch which gives you an idea how close the planting is.

3rd year
vegetable garden in food forest

The zone on the right is caged to prevent the poultry from damaging certain crops, lettuce, cabbage family, beetroot and seedling the fence is used to support roses, beans, cucumbers, loofahs, Malabar spinach etc. There is a wild cherry tree overhanging the cages which mulches the area beautifully.

fence to support climbing vegetables

Caged area, the square in the photo.)
chicken protection fence for vegetables

It's difficult to show everything in the photos as the planting is so dense but everything seems in good health and getting enough sunshine and air circulation.

brassica in good health

All the gardens around our house (Just over a hectare) developed like this, slowly but surely. It's taken a long time but it's coming along. This is the lastest google map I have showing the front of the house (Which is still in a bit of a mess.) and the woods behind it.

satellite aerial view food forest

I'm sorry for the long post but I hope this helps anyone considering doing the same thing.

Irene

La Ferme de Sourrou : Our PROJECTS

Tom Harner

Posts: 97

Location: St. Louis, MO

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posted 9 years ago

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Cactusdan Hatfield wrote:Hello all,

I'm interested in an establishing a permaculture, perennially/tree based farm on 1-2 acres of an 18 acre lot in South Eastern South Carolina.

The land is pretty heavily wooded and I want to focus on maintaining the current system as much as possible while implementing a greater number of productive trees.

...
Any advice, thoughts, and questions are much appreciated!

-Dan

Based on that photo, those trees are not all that old (50-60 years for the larger ones in the image), so I wouldn't feel too bad about making improvements.

Also, I think it was Jack Spirko I heard say that our job as forest farmers is to manage climax (I know Joel Salitin has a similar opinion of grass management). Every (natural?) system is most productive as it is striving to reach its climax state... Then productivity follows the law of diminishing returns... because the elements (trees in this case) gets too comfortable in their luxuriously easy nursing-home (climax forest)... We should continually create thoughtful disturbances to spur on productivity.... make the elements want it more. Prune out some of the old geezers that are hogging all the resources without giving back and allow the younger generation to thrive on the spoils. (still talking about the forest... I swear.

)

I know I'm anthropomorphizing a bit... but it is just such an appropriate analogy.

Remember, most productive perennial food crops don't grow deep in the forest (or any system); they are typically edge/pioneer species.

Both Jack and Joel have some great ideas regarding land management. My advice is to look into their ~~writings/videos/podcasts/...~~ works. Also, Eric Toensmeier and his works should be of use to your situation lots of forest gardening research.

Native shade-tolerant (think forest edges) N-fixer: American groundnut

http://ruggedroot.farm

Theresa Parker

Posts: 11

Location: West North Carolina

posted 1 year ago

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I love the ideas shared from the most recent replies. I will definitely read further through the thread. I am on 2-3 acres wooded land on a slope. I believe
Growing zone is 7b. Immediate area is walkable but we would need leveled paths ourselves. The larger piece is mostly too steep, but the roadside portion of that lot might be usable. Bottom corner of the steep slope is supposed to have a small creek. Surrounding area is forrested, some residents.

This would be a medium-long term plan as the immediate benefit would to be able to enjoy some of the land through leveled walking paths. We are in our late 50s to early 60s. What producing benefit coming from my idea would likely be in a few years after creation pending sun lit areas freed up.

I hope to incorporate swale-like heugelkulture beds in the immediate area lot, abt .6 ac. The beds created would appear as if they had been been terraced. The lower parts of a specific sloped swale would be filled with thicker layers of the heugelkultur material. As one would walk up the slope the tree trunk type (fresh cut and older trunks-limbs), would eventually thin out to more rotted trunks and limbs with older leaf litter and some smaller and newer limb /twig material.

The bulk of trees appear to be less than 5-15 years with older trees dotted throughout, mostly hardwood with maybe 15-20% pine.

Possibly some type of low retaining wall with drainage points along the bottom as we have frequent rainfall runoff.

The plan would start off with plants easier to grow in a forest, clear a few spots for fruit-producing trees and or bushes and maybe other perrrenial plants. Vined flowers, and some food producing plants that are vines, conducive to a shaded or partially shaded area, if feasible.

Mushroom beds possibly after small test patches.

The initial benefit would include cleared paths along the top and bottom of each resulting huegelkultur bed to provide safe walking on the slighter slope.

Maintaining most of the forrest would benefit to retain a decent cover from the sun. Hugelkultur beds could also be a benefit against possibly increasing warmer seasons and less rain.

Were we younger, we would have, over time, cut a trail to the bottom of the lower steeper land. I hope, with help, to set up a wildlife viewing station at the top, less sloped area.

A couple tent platforms a small rustic cabin for the grandkids to enjoy on the lesser sloped smaller land by the house.

We would at least possibly be leaving a nice wooded vacation spot for kids and grandkids!!!

Thanks for your input and time.

Anne Miller

steward

Posts: 16078

Location: USDA Zone 8a

4274

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Bryant RedHawk wrote:In my overall plan I included some areas of the woods to become food forest.
Step one : removing the choking understory but leaving the trees.
Step two : removing the standing dead wood in the areas that will become food forest.
Step three : patterning the sun so we know the spaces per day sun hours and if they are full sun, partial sun or mostly shade.
Step four : plant test plants and seed, this way we will know what grows best where. this will be planted out fully the next season.

I like this suggestion.

I also like Tyler's suggestion for making rock piles sine they will attract snakes that will help keep the rodent population down.

Brush piles can be made from some of the debris from clearing the understory to make habitats for wildlife.

I also like the suggestion for growing mushrooms as mushrooms are so beneficial and edible, too.

Invasive plants are Earth's way of insisting we notice her medicines. Stephen Herrod Buhner
Everyone learns what works by learning what doesn't work. Stephen Herrod Buhner

Mary Haasch

Posts: 48

Location: NE Wisconsin USA; Zone 4b -25F to -20F

posted 1 year ago

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There is so much information in this thread over so many years it's going to take some time to try to digest and organize all of it. I recently purchased about 40 acres of re-growth after the land was forested about 30 years ago. I envision a multi-purpose food forest incorporating managed horse pasture and leaving room for the white-tail deer, the red foxes, the black bear momma, the wild turkeys, the grouse and anything else I don't know about, yet. There are 4 deer stands. There are open areas of native grasses, hazelnuts, and blueberries. It's mostly flat with a rise almost through the middle and a steep hill on the west side. There are two areas with road access but no roads through the land although there are two tracks for a truck or ATV/UTV around and two go through in the N-S direction. There may be one through the middle going E-W but it is somewhat overgrown. The tracks are pretty straight. I'd like to use them but make them with curves which is attractive to the grouse. The land is, in my eyes, a paradise and already an oasis for wildlife surrounded by planted pines on the east and south and some on the north boundaries with neighbors across the road on the west. A river is about 0.5 miles away to the east and north, some of which is a designated trout stream. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

Making my world a better place, one permaculture decision at a time.

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the permaculture bootcamp in winter (plus half-assed holidays)

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