permaculture wiki: www.permies.com/permaculture
http://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-new-brunswick-plant-zone-hardiness-map.php
I am growing Satsuma oranges in the ground here in the Georgia mountains, zone 7B/8A.
They are growing in a slightly recessed area facing south, the sides and back of the walls around the trees are made of stacked rock. Late in the fall I put a small wood and plastic sheet row house over them. Also there is a small 40w incandescent lamp over each tree that is controlled by a greenhouse thermostat. Whenever the temp falls to freezing inside then the lights come on. Last winter the lowest temp I had was 10F/-12C.
A thing to remember is that mature trees are much more hardy than young trees. The smaller the tree, the more it should be OVER protected.
Hügelkutur beds might generate a little heat from decomposition the first year or so, but I wouldn't rely on it.
If I were in your position, I would build the beds as high as possible to block icy winds, put the trees right in the low point of the slope between (keeping in mind the angle of the sun in winter) AND cover them with an enclosure. Put large dark rocks, jugs/barrels/buckets painted black full of water around the trees to act as passive solar collectors. Of course, a solar collector is useless if they don't get sunlight on cloudy days, so there should be some sort of active backup such as lights/ electric or gas heater, candles, attached livestock shelter, fresh decomposing compost, etc.
One creative trick a guy in the Ukraine uses is an in-ground greenhouse. This is basically a pit in the ground with an enclosure over it. This uses the constant temperature of the soil itself to help moderate the over all low temperatures outside. The pit is deeper than the trees are tall, but is oriented so as much sunlight gets in as possible.

The ultimate goal of farming is not the growing of crops, but the cultivation and perfection of human beings. - Masanobu Fukuoka
emerinza wrote:
Thank you Rob and Crispy for your input. Although I may not be able to grow citrus trees, the information you have provided will certainly help me with other plants and trees. I find it interesting how Holzer can grow citrus. I must admit I am a permaculture newbie. Earlier this spring I planted cold hardy trees for Zone 5. I live between Fredericton and Nackawic in New Brunswick. I have Stanley plum, 4 in 1 pear (Flemish Beauty, Bartlett, Anjou, Comice) and Wolf River Apple. I need to get another apple to pollinate the Wolf River. I have been viewing video after video of Holzer's work and read whatever I can find. I value others opinions that have tried his methods. I stumbled upon permaculture by accident looking to see how I could improve my garden spot as it wasn't doing too well. This year I have noticed a difference already...the worms are back. I am hoping some of the things I have learned and implemented into my garden will give me a much better harvest. Thank you both for sharing your information with me and if you have any other advice to offer I am more than willing to listen.
You are very welcome! If I think of anything else I will post it. My citrus trees are doing great in pots, so if you can try it out!
permaculture wiki: www.permies.com/permaculture
We live in a marginal citrus country that means that we can grow some citrus but not all. We can for example grow Meyer lemon, but no oranges. Oranges are actually hardier than lemons but they need more heat/ time to ripen. So there are two different factors: one is the hardiness and one is the temperature and time you need for them to ripen. Average temperatures don't mean anything. Kumquats are nice and very hardy and ripen here too. They taste lovely and make the best marmalade ever. We're getting down to -5°C but I have no idea about Fahrenheits.
-
1
-
-
-
-
CrispyCritter wrote: A thing to remember is that mature trees are much more hardy than young trees. The smaller the tree, the more it should be OVER
That's the opposite of what sepp holzer says in one of his videos. He stated that he raised his citrus trees from seed. He let them stay outside in a pot without cover for 2 years and (of course) only planted the ones that survived. He used natural selection in this process.
The larger the citrus tree you bought the more unlikely it is to survive the change of not being warm and cozy the whole year. Starting from seed is the way to go, says sepp holzer. Too much work for me. I have three lemon trees in my greenhouse and have plenty of lemons to give to my neighbours.
If I were in your position, I would build the beds as high as possible to block icy winds, put the trees right in the low point of the slope between (keeping in mind the angle of the sun in winter) AND cover them with an enclosure.
Don't forget that cold air flows DOWN. When you build a pit like this you would have to mulch the inside of the pit for the winter higher than the tops of the mounds. Otherwise you're collecting cold air. Your plants would certainly die.
I would plant the tree right on a slope and put larger rocks behind and around the citrus tree in U-form. So that cold air flows around the rocks not over them. I would even try to find a large thin plate-like stone as sort of a roof.

I wouldn't build it exactly that way either... haha.
Life that has a meaning wouldn't ask for its meaning. - Theodor W. Adorno
-
1
-
-
-
-
I am open to learning anything about how Mr. Holzer does it. I've just found personally that young plants in general (not only citrus) are less hardy than ones that have matured and have larger diameter trunks, stems. (Do you know where I can see the video you mentioned?)
Oddly enough, I have tried the "natural selection" process. I have grown some mandarin trees / kumquats from seed try out this very idea. I was very suprised that two tiny trees small enough to fit under a coffee cup actually lived through two winters in my yard with almost no protection (sadly they died after having most of their tops frozen off last winter, still, they lived a lot longer than I thought they would.)
I have two mandarins that I grew in pots over the last year or so and planted out in front of my house this Spring. They are at least 3ft / 1m tall so they are physically sturdier than the tiny ones that didn't make it.
The way I see it, I am out little money if I eat some citrus fruit, grow the seeds and experiment with them. If even a tiny percentage of them live and thrive, then great.
>>>The larger the citrus tree you bought the more unlikely it is to survive the change of not being warm and cozy the whole year. Starting from seed is the way to go, says sepp holzer.
Just to note, the Satsuma mandarins I have bought were field grown in a similar climate to mine, there was not much adjusting they needed to do. In any case, I have experimented with growing my own trees from seed, its nice to get confirmation that Mr. Holzer is having success with this and I will put more effort into this.
>>>

Cold air does flow down, but I personally think the small elevation change between two mounds would benefit the trees more by protecting them from freeze-drying winds than harm them from collecting a little cold air. In in any case I see Holzer use this idea in this diagram: http://edenparadigm.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Holzer-Raised-Bed-Diagram-LRG.jpg
I would plant the tree right on a slope and put larger rocks behind and around the citrus tree in U-form. So that cold air flows around the rocks not over them. I would even try to find a large thin plate-like stone as sort of a roof.
You have basically described how I protect my satsuma mandarins, except I have a small plastic and wood greenhouse instead of the stone roof (lets more light through!)
So I put the pot outside in the sun and ignored it. The three foot long trunk, thinner than the size of a pencil started putting out small leaves rather rapidly. Then it just quit. And that is where it is now.
This is my second year trying to grow this poor lemon. I am sure that it is something I am doing as every where I read they are supposed to grow like crazy. Help?
P.S., I did have one outside, I should be able to grow outside here, but it croaked.
1. my projects
Ponds work like the reflectors of a solar oven so look up solar ovens to understand how sepp uses his ponds.
In place your reflc¡ector pond, then you have to screen off the plants from prevailing winds so a place were the sun shines on the pond and gets reflected off it and that is not open to prevailing winds.
Sepp keeps his pumpkins warm by planitng them next to a rock that the suns shines on .
Rocks apart from getting very hot in sunlight retain heat and let it off at night when it gets colder, they lose heat when there is a temperature differential, if the heat was the same outside as within the rock they would not lose heat. Rocks reduce temperature swings by warming the surroundings when the temperature goes down.. Mind you they would increase the swing to hot under full sunlight.
I would get a dwarf citrus and cheat by putting plastic protection round it in winter or i would prune the tree so it statyed small, have a lemon bush.
The japanese wrap trees up in winter, they dont just cross their fingers and hope frost wont get them. This goes a bit against the permaculture idae that the natural way is good, it is silly to work too hard.
The truth is i would like to hear a long description of the places Sepp plants lemons.
I like the information dunkelheit gives on hot and cold air and his way to create a microclimate for a citrus tree..
In paul wheatons video of a village made of clay houses, they make an alcove that seems to be two steps deep onto a wall and apparently ithe temperature in the alcove is twenty grades i have to check that out, warmer in the alcove than outside it. I suppose it is south facing I should check that out too.
There are youtube videos of semicircular constructions in brick with i higher wall in the centre than on the edge, cuissant shaped walls, i am not sure if they were built as a way of shading plants or warming them, shading i think but in a cold climate they might work for warming them. The sound track to the video is, "the eyes of a lioin", Dont look in the eyes of a lion and think you see a friend. a song instead of an explanation of the walls. It is among permaculture videos and is shot in Africa. agri rose macaskie.
South Carolina wrote:
fireweed, can you give me some suggestions on my meyer lemon? I thought it had died over the winter in the house - I am not a genuis with houseplants.
So I put the pot outside in the sun and ignored it. The three foot long trunk, thinner than the size of a pencil started putting out small leaves rather rapidly. Then it just quit. And that is where it is now.
This is my second year trying to grow this poor lemon. I am sure that it is something I am doing as every where I read they are supposed to grow like crazy. Help?
P.S., I did have one outside, I should be able to grow outside here, but it croaked.
I had some little citrus trees do that once, turned out the root systems were mostly rotten. I over watered or something. In any case, I took the trees out of their pots and pulled off all the dead stuff, washed the remaining root ball to make sure everything left was still good.
Next, I cut off almost all of the branches to equalize the top growth to the remaining roots. Lastly I replanted the remaining bit in pots in good well draining potting soil.
After a few weeks they started to recover and put on new top growth.
In my opinion, you possibly have the same problem. You got new growth out in the sun, but there is not enough good roots to support the top growth, so it stopped.
1. my projects
1. my projects
Here in Spain they grow citrus fruits on the mi¡editeranean side of spain and the south where the winters are not too cold. Eneglish people seem to think they grow them everywhere here, it would need a sepp type arrangement for them to survive the winters of the rest of Spain.
The spanish evergreen oak the quercus iliex rotundifolia, bares the hard winters of the interior as well as the hot dry summers. agri rose macaskie.
Some trees, like the native oaks, can die if you water them in summer - something to do with a fungus that lives on the roots that will spring to life and kill the tree if conditions are right.
How permies.com works
What is a Mother Tree ?
Burra Maluca wrote:
Rose - I'm right on the edge of 'citrus country' and I've learned that orange trees aren't truly mediterranean plants. They cope with our winters, just, but they do need some water during the summer. Not often, but if they don't get water, the oranges are dry and disgusting.
The rule I always hear is to water citrus trees well, then wait till the top 1" inch of soil is dry before watering them again. In other words they like a good soak, then to be let to dry somewhat in between waterings. Of course sandy soils will dry faster than heavier soils.
Evergreen oaks seem to hate too much nitrogen, everytime i have seen a small bit of land with oaks on it enclosed to hold animals, the first time for horses the next for goats and again for one horse the oaks inside the land enclosed have died. In the goat pen it took a long time for the oaks to die but where they tethered a horse at the camping sight, the tree next to the horse died in a year or two and the place i saw years ago enclosed to hold various horses was full of dead encinas. agri rose macaskie.
You could wrap up citrus trees in winter, the japanese do it. You put fir twigs in between the branches to fill in the gaps in the head of the tree or handfulls of straw or hay and then more of either on the outside of the whole head and trunk of the tree and then sackcloth.
The gardening book i have that includes a description of how to protect trees in winter also says a teepee of bamboo fencing over the tree that is then covered in sack cloth is even better.
The photos show and end result of these processes that is very tidy loooking, like a very tidy thin haystack.
In the photo it looks more as if they have wrapped on of the small trees in a roll of that fencing made of a stoutish grass straw not that made of split bamboo.
I reckon trees do photosynthasise in winter by the green layer just under their bark the green protected by bark as it is not in leaves. This could be a reason not to wrap them up. agri rose macaskie.

This will take every ounce of my mental strength! All for a tiny ad:
Binge on 17 Seasons of Permaculture Design Monkeys!
http://permaculture-design-course.com
|