Cooking Apples

Another confused Brit in the US question . . .

I can’t find cooking apples in any of my local grocery stores. I ask in store and no one knew what I was talking about! In the UK there’s a large misshapen and waxy skinned apple called a Bramley. It has firm flesh and is very tart. It’s perfect in apple pies and that’s why I went looking.

Do they exist? My general observation is that on the whole the majority of American’s like lots of sugar in everything and have a very low tolerance for tart, sour, sharp flavours unless it’s paired with lots of sugar . . . I once bought a shop made apple pie and it tasted of sugar, vanilla, cinnamon with out the slightest hint of apple. I’ve given up on ice-cream. No matter what flavour you buy, it’s so sweet I can’t taste anything else. I digress . . . I’m guessing there’s no market for a sour apple that requires cooking.

I will of course grow my own.

Though I don't really know the apple I see most in grocery stores for cooking is a Granny Smith, which is a green apple.

Not knowing anything about Bramley apples I search the forum and did find some references to them.

I ask Mr. Google so I will share my results with you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bramley_apple

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_apple

Maybe try Granny Smith apples. They’re tart and suitable for cooking.

Are your pies similar to the ones we make here? Shape and all?

Where i live, everyone and their dog has an apple tree orchard. It was very popular back in the day to plant 10+ apple trees per homestead. I was just gifted 5 gallons of apple cider.

Now there is an over abundance of apples. Usually people share them or offer spend apples for pigs/livestock.


There are so many different variety's here. I wouldn't know what type to tell you for cooking apple.


Basically what i am trying to get at is, try at places other than grocery stores. I really doubt they will have cocks pip orange or mutzu which are popular variety's here. Maybe there are wild growing crab apples in your area. Maybe it is worth sourcing out an apple orchard?

Maybe try putting something on craigslist?

Another variety belle de boskoop https://www.saltspringapplecompany.com/belle-de-boskoop

The most important part of a cooking apple (in my opinion) is that it turns to mush when cooked, pretty much any apple will need a bit of sugar once cooked, a granny smith really won't do it holds it's shape when cooked. I managed to get a brambly tree here, it flowered last year but didn't set fruit, I have high hopes for next year.

Anne Miller wrote:Though I don't really know the apple I see most in grocery stores for cooking is a Granny Smith, which is a green apple.

Thanks for the references. I’m currently using Granny Smiths as the next best. They’re not the same though, you can eat them straight as is and you definitely wouldn’t want to do that with a cooker. Cooking apples only become palatable when cooked.

Liv Smith wrote:Maybe try Granny Smith apples. They’re tart and suitable for cooking.
Are your pies similar to the ones we make here? Shape and all?

Well, it turns out, here in NJ pies are pizza! And I’m sure there’s places selling apple pizza.

I make two kinds. A crumble which is apple and blackberry filling (1kg of apple, 500g of blackberries, 100g sugar and a knob of butter) and then a layer of crumble made of flour, oats, nuts, sugar and butter. I also make a cobbler, same filling but six cobblers on top - flour, milk, lemon juice, butter, sugar and ground almond. I cook both in a deep pie dish - four of five inches of filling then the topping.

Traditionally, as in what my English grandmother would cook, a pie would be cooked in a much flatter dish with a layer of pastry, then filling, then more pastry. Crumbles and cobblers are easier and less likely to go wrong.

jordan barton wrote:Where i live, everyone and their dog has an apple tree orchard. It was very popular back in the day to plant 10+ apple trees per homestead. I was just gifted 5 gallons of apple cider.

Now there is an over abundance of apples. Usually people share them or offer spend apples for pigs/livestock.


There are so many different variety's here. I wouldn't know what type to tell you for cooking apple.


Basically what i am trying to get at is, try at places other than grocery stores. I really doubt they will have cocks pip orange or mutzu which are popular variety's here. Maybe there are wild growing crab apples in your area. Maybe it is worth sourcing out an apple orchard?

Maybe try putting something on craigslist?

Another variety belle de boskoop https://www.saltspringapplecompany.com/belle-de-boskoop

Alas, despite living in the garden state, I haven’t even found a wild or volunteer apple tree. People mostly grow lawn and concrete. I even used iNaturalist to track down crab apples but they turned out to be pacific crab apples and size of peas.

There are pick your own orchards but they’re too far for me to travel to. I’m moving next year to upstate NY and it’s orchard country. I’m sure I’ll find lots of interesting verities.

Thanks for the info on belle de boksoop - added to my fruit forest list.

Skandi Rogers wrote:The most important part of a cooking apple (in my opinion) is that it turns to mush when cooked, pretty much any apple will need a bit of sugar once cooked, a granny smith really won't do it holds it's shape when cooked. I managed to get a brambly tree here, it flowered last year but didn't set fruit, I have high hopes for next year.

I’m not keen on them turning to mush . . . Which I think is what you meant to say? I prefer mine to still have bite. I go for a 10:1 ratio of Bramly to sugar and 20:1 with eating apples.

I hope you have better luck with your tree next year.

Edward Norton wrote:I’m not keen on them turning to mush . . . Which I think is what you meant to say? I prefer mine to still have bite. I go for a 10:1 ratio of Bramly to sugar and 20:1 with eating apples.

I don't like them turning to mush either. If that were the case Apple Pie would be mush pie or applesauce pie.

I have never been one to cook with a specific apple.  Whatever is in the house is what gets cooked.

Same with pears.  We love pear pie and I make them with what ever pears are given to me.

Anne Miller wrote: Same with pears.  We love pear pie and I make them with what ever pears are given to me.

Great reminder! I totally forgot about cooking with pears.

This is my favourite pear pie - well it’s more of a cake French Grandmother Apple Cake - you can make with either apple or pear and any kind, or almost any fruit that takes your fancy.

That recipe is almost the same as my Clafoutis recipe.

I read about it on one of the threads about food at the Wheaton Lab.  So I found a recipe and over time changed it to something that was easy for me to remember.

https://permies.com/t/101228/kitchen/RECIPE-Simple-Clafoutis

Edward Norton wrote:

Liv Smith wrote:Maybe try Granny Smith apples. They’re tart and suitable for cooking.
Are your pies similar to the ones we make here? Shape and all?

Well, it turns out, here in NJ pies are pizza! And I’m sure there’s places selling apple pizza.

I make two kinds. A crumble which is apple and blackberry filling (1kg of apple, 500g of blackberries, 100g sugar and a knob of butter) and then a layer of crumble made of flour, oats, nuts, sugar and butter. I also make a cobbler, same filling but six cobblers on top - flour, milk, lemon juice, butter, sugar and ground almond. I cook both in a deep pie dish - four of five inches of filling then the topping.

Traditionally, as in what my English grandmother would cook, a pie would be cooked in a much flatter dish with a layer of pastry, then filling, then more pastry. Crumbles and cobblers are easier and less likely to go wrong.

Please post pictures next time you make one of these like your grandmother made, if you do! And recipe, if you will.

Too bad we don’t have a BB for that. At least I don’t *think* we do…

The recipe I use is in this book The River Cottage Year

And the recipe is on this website Apple and Blackberry Cobbler

I use buttermilk rather than milk and lemon juice - the acidity is needed for the baking soda

I’ll post pictures once it’s done.

If you went to a place where you pick apples (it is totally worth zipcar-ing or whatever, with your family, a fabulous fall activity if you haven't done it yet- they'll also have cider.... not the kind you're thinking of, but good nonetheless!), you would find baking apples. They are often not worth eating raw. I recall Jonagold, Honeycrisp, Braeburn, Mutsu, but every local orchard will have their own. Farmer's markets might have them, since it's the season. Supermarket apples are insipid and not worth your time (as you've found).

As for the pie/sugar/etc. It's funny how it's sort of relative.
When we moved to the US many of our friends from Japan came to visit. I will never forget my one friend in a Dunkin Donuts in Massachusetts, looking at everything almost in tears and saying "Everything here is too big, too sweet, too cheap!!" (that may have been precipitated by taking her to a Walmart, which was seriously overwhelming, even for me).
But then, here in the land of sugar things are even SWEETER, if you can imagine. It's astounding.

Hey,

Generally in the US "Granny Smith, a tart green firm apple is considered the baking or stewing apple of choice, you might try quinces which appear in more upscale markets, if you can get some "love apples" or Dolgo sized crabapples, which are tart enough to meet your stewing needs.  Young Macintosh apples are a bit sweet but very tart, firm and hold up well if you dont overcook them in my opinion.  Pink Lady apples are sweetish but very firm and I havent stewed them but they can be pretty hard and I think you could experiment with them as a temporary subject for your cooking apple projects.

So here’s my Blackberry and Apple cobbler, posted BB style!

The recipe I use is in this book The River Cottage Year

And the recipe is on this website Apple and Blackberry Cobbler

I use buttermilk rather than milk and lemon juice - the acidity is needed for the baking soda. I also use coconut sugar - it has a really lovely caramel nuttiness.




Scraps for ACV













And now it’s time to eat - see you all tomorrow

agreed, there’s really 2 groups of cooking apples! those used for pies/tarts/cobblers/crisps/crumbles/buckles…etc; and another for sauce/butter.

i know it’s not necessarily easily in the cards, edward, but i would recommend heading north for a better selection. upstate new york has some independent orchards, and i used to work for a family with orchards in southern vermont. more of the older varieties (though not necessarily bramleys) that aren’t available in stores. some like ida red are storage/cooking apples - you don’t even want to cook with them until at least midwinter! weekend trip maybe?

McIntosh are tart and I think hold up fine to baking.  They are my favorite apple hands down.  Empire is another.  Numerically you will probably need more apples than your Bramley though, I'm thinking.

Northern spy is readily available at orchards back east but honestly any orchard area should have a wide array of apples fine for pies.

You'll never find the good apples in stores, Americans eat the most boring apples.

I'd love to grow a pippin, it's on my list for our next home. We are contemplating a move next summer so I haven't planted anymore trees. We've got a jonagold which I quite like for the tart factor. Oh that reminds me, many varieties of goldens are much better orchard or home grown and do not resemble the insipid ones in stores.

Here's another vote for Macintosh. I planted two to round out my fruit tree collection (two plum, two cherry, two apple). They were commonly grown in northern New York State when I lived there. They're an old fashioned, sturdy, tart enough apple in my opinion. It turns out, however, that they need another kind of apple tree for pollination. So my orchard isn't quite complete after all.

In regards to the question about cooking apples; these days, people are directed to Granny Smiths as 'cooking apples' because they are  on the tart side.

I am looking into trying to find a few dwarf Jonathan/Johnathan apple trees to  plant in my back yard because I like Jonathan/Johnathan apples so much better; they are cultivated to be a storage apple..  

I love tart apples, so  the mentioning of Bramleys will have me looking for those, too.

Any advice on where to find  Johnathan/Jonahtan  and Bramleys  starter trees?

Bocca Yi wrote:Northern spy is readily available at orchards back east but honestly any orchard area should have a wide array of apples fine for pies.

You'll never find the good apples in stores, Americans eat the most boring apples.

I'd love to grow a pippin, it's on my list for our next home. We are contemplating a move next summer so I haven't planted anymore trees. We've got a jonagold which I quite like for the tart factor. Oh that reminds me, many varieties of goldens are much better orchard or home grown and do not resemble the insipid ones in stores.

I haven't tried Jonagolds yet; and the last time I was 'gifted' with a  bag Golden delicious, they were  grainy and no flavor; I ended up making fried apples with them, adding in lemon juice and sugar   and cinnamon...just to make them palatable

Oh my goodness! this looks  so good!  Imma gonna  show up on your doorstep someday and demand this! *LOL*

Thanks for the cookbook tip; gonna go look for that now...

Edward Norton wrote:So here’s my Blackberry and Apple cobbler, posted BB style!

The recipe I use is in this book The River Cottage Year

And the recipe is on this website Apple and Blackberry Cobbler

I use buttermilk rather than milk and lemon juice - the acidity is needed for the baking soda. I also use coconut sugar - it has a really lovely caramel nuttiness.

]

And now it’s time to eat - see you all tomorrow

Edward Norton wrote:Another confused Brit in the US question . . .

I can’t find cooking apples in any of my local grocery stores. I ask in store and no one knew what I was talking about! In the UK there’s a large misshapen and waxy skinned apple called a Bramley. It has firm flesh and is very tart. It’s perfect in apple pies and that’s why I went looking.

Do they exist? My general observation is that on the whole the majority of American’s like lots of sugar in everything and have a very low tolerance for tart, sour, sharp flavours unless it’s paired with lots of sugar . . . I once bought a shop made apple pie and it tasted of sugar, vanilla, cinnamon with out the slightest hint of apple. I’ve given up on ice-cream. No matter what flavour you buy, it’s so sweet I can’t taste anything else. I digress . . . I’m guessing there’s no market for a sour apple that requires cooking.

I will of course grow my own.

You are SO right about American pies, and baked goods in general, being too sweet to eat. My grandmother made an apple pie from a tree on her ranch whose apples were too tart to eat but the pies were very "appley".
I don't know where you live in NJ but there is a wonderful orchard that has Bramley apples that you can pick or get at their stand. Here is a link to their website.  http://www.bonacorsifamilyfarm.com/?page_id=245  
Good luck in your search!

If you are in central NJ, look up Terhune Orchards started maybe 40 yrs ago by returning Peace corps volunteers. They have dozens of kinds and also make cider.
The Amish sell apples at the Trenton Farmers Market. They have many traditional types of apple. All the best for your search!

I agree the Granny Smith is the easiest tart/firm variety to find in the grocery. When I was growing up in southeast Pennsylvania (maybe not too far from you), we also found McIntosh, and those were our favorite for pies (more floral -- softer, though).

Our farmer's market is justing starting to get Goldrush apples in now. They are my highest recommendation: a tart, firm, fragrant long-keeper. Nittany are in now too and are similar, though a little milder.

I visit the pick-your-own orchard in September, and then I get Empire, Jonagold, and Mutsu to balance the sweet Golden Delicious ones. None of those are as tart as Grannies or even McIntosh but they'll do. They also sometimes have extra-tart Wolf River apples, but I'd  be surprised if you can find those now--they look like poor keepers.

You did not state where you are currently living.  National chain grocery stores will only have apples for the obviously uneducated taste of the masses of Americans, ie., sugary sweet. If you are fortunate enough to live in the traditional Northern apple growing areas, especially in the NE, you can still find old orchards or apple enthusiast individuals and farmers who grow old varieties, even the English ones.  The traditional pie apple of this region (NY) is Northern Spy. It is a balanced tart with a bit of sweet (unlike the sour and hard Granny Smith which is inedible imho), has a lasting firmness, keeps all winter even under poor conditions, and softens well in a pie without falling apart (which we only want for apple sauce!]  This would be the easiest to find in the NE.  My local independent grocery has them in the giant orchard boxes in season.  If you search for a local food co-op in apple country, often they will carry apples from local small farmers... the younger folks who have "come back to the land" and now grow for farmers' markets and CSA's which are abundant here.  You can find out there who is growing and call and visit the growers.  They also have bulletin boards where you can post your questions to find what you are looking for.  The variety you are looking for may be grown by the orchard for the farmer's or her/his direct customers but not wanted by the retailer. If there is a local land-grant college with an ag school, they might have a research orchard as well. Not likely to have the old varieties but their experiment stations are developing or "improving" varieties and often have new varieties for sale, even ones that might fit your needs/tastes. Network.  There are plenty of these old varieties out there but you need to find the growers. They will be thrilled to meet you and learn what you know about apples from your home region.

Happy hunting!

Awesome replies - thank you!

I’m in Essex county, NJ which is basically part of the New York / Newark / Elizabeth mega conurbation. My only mode of transport during the week is bike, and I’m reluctant to travel more than ten miles each way.

There are a couple of local farmers markets but they’re pretty rubbish and now closed for the winter. The pick your own places have also closed for the season although some still have road side stalls.

I’m using Granny Smiths. I can happily eat one raw - you definitely wouldn’t eat a Brambly raw - think giant crab apple.

Next year I’m moving to Duchess County New York - I counted five ‘pick your own’ orchards the last time I visited. I’ve also found an awesome CSA.

The cobbler was ok . . . Still a little too sweet! Maybe I’ll add lemon juice / zest next time.

I'm surprised to see Macintosh suggested. It's not common anymore, but when I was a kid it was one of the standard grocery store apples and used as a regular eating apple - at least in my family. I also think granny smith is an eating apple, though.

I don't have anything to suggest, since cooking apples here are unknown varieties picked from old abondoned orchards.

Maybe you'd enjoy a sweet sour flavour, though? I have a barley salad I make semi regularly with apple, parsley, and lemon juice. I use a sweet apple (my favourite right now is Salish, but I don't think it's available much outside of BC yet), cube it up, and soak in lemon juice for a while. Then I mix in the parsley and barley. Every time you get a bite of apple, it's an intense sweet and sour hit. Don't know if it would work in a baking application, though.

Jan White wrote:I'm surprised to see Macintosh suggested. It's not common anymore, but when I was a kid it was one of the standard grocery store apples and used as a regular eating apple - at least in my family. I also think granny smith is an eating apple, though.

I don't have anything to suggest, since cooking apples here are unknown varieties picked from old abondoned orchards.

Maybe you'd enjoy a sweet sour flavour, though? I have a barley salad I make semi regularly with apple, parsley, and lemon juice. I use a sweet apple (my favourite right now is Salish, but I don't think it's available much outside of BC yet), cube it up, and soak in lemon juice for a while. Then I mix in the parsley and barley. Every time you get a bite of apple, it's an intense sweet and sour hit. Don't know if it would work in a baking application, though.

That sounds like an awesome salad and not something I’d think of making. I’ll give it ago - Thanks Jan.

Edward Norton wrote:Awesome replies - thank you!

I’m in Essex county, NJ which is basically part of the New York / Newark / Elizabeth mega conurbation. My only mode of transport during the week is bike, and I’m reluctant to travel more than ten miles each way.

There are a couple of local farmers markets but they’re pretty rubbish and now closed for the winter. The pick your own places have also closed for the season although some still have road side stalls.

I’m using Granny Smiths. I can happily eat one raw - you definitely wouldn’t eat a Brambly raw - think giant crab apple.

Next year I’m moving to Duchess County New York - I counted five ‘pick your own’ orchards the last time I visited. I’ve also found an awesome CSA.

The cobbler was ok . . . Still a little too sweet! Maybe I’ll add lemon juice / zest next time.

In that case, you probably don't want Northern Spy unless, like me, you don't sweeten cobblers and pies. For any apples here, definitely use lemon.   Personally, I no longer go to you-pics because apples are sprayed with all kind of poisons. Great that you found a CSA. In Dutchess Co you should have more luck finding varieties. You can also connect with local small farmers if there is a "farmer to farmer" facebook group in your area.  That is how I found someone with hybrid chestnuts to buy from his only 2 trees.  good luck.

Jan White wrote:I'm surprised to see Macintosh suggested. It's not common anymore, but when I was a kid it was one of the standard grocery store apples and used as a regular eating apple - at least in my family. I also think granny smith is an eating apple, though.

McIntosh is still standard in my neighborhood grocery stores; I'm in Chicago and there's usually bags of smallish Macs for sale from Michigan or NY.  I think if them as a utility apple, not my favorite for any particular purpose, but usable for most.

My crab apple and unknown variety apple did not survive the floods of 2016. But the pears did.  I make my "Apple" pie with Pears. Bartlett and moonglow. LOL. I use ginger, nutmeg and cinnamon.

McIntosh is very common here even in some of the smaller grocery stores. I planted one a few years back,. It's been deer browsed a couple times and while small is still hanging in there. I like McIntosh in a pie mixed with mostly a firm apple like Rome. My wife likes all Golden Delicious in her pies. My favorite is a pie with multiple apples so that every bite is a little different. Except for Granny Smith, which needs a steak knife to eat, I think any apple in a pie is better than no pie.

Some pie apples to consider are Baldwin, Black Oxford, and King David. When I planted the McIntosh I also planted a Redfield which is a very tart apple with red flesh. It's considered too tart for most, but makes good red pies and cider. Mine bloomed the first year and then suffered the same deer browsing.

Bocca Yi wrote:Northern spy is readily available at orchards back east...

I remember my grandma preferentially using Spy to make pies.  
We are blessed with lots of feral apples in our area.  Nearly every 40 acre field (standard land parcel in our area) has an apple tree somewhere on it, of varying quality.  We know which we like and when they ripen. There's also a gas station with an intentionally planted tree that is not harvested.  Every year we stop in, ask permission, and get nearly every apple off it.  It might be braeburn, my wife says.
When we lived in MN, we had a friend with "whitney crabs" They were good for juice.  

I have enjoyed reading this thread.
Despite all the globalization of things there are still some very regional species and preferences, be it apples or roses (the names of roses mentioned on international forums often do not ring any bell).

In Germany we also use different apples for baking than for eating fresh. You could not bake an apple strudel with a modern sweet apple like Topaz or even Pink Lady.
But it is also difficult to get a wide selection in a supermarket. I am lucky to live in an area where people still have apple trees. I get Boskop apples (for cakes/pies) from one of my neighbours. Gravenstein and similar are also popular for baking.
Some people I know are very keen on "Klaräpfel", also called Jakobiäpfel as they mature around St. Jacobs day (as early as July 25th). They are a very pale green, are very tart and don't keep. It is so difficult to get those! I know people who always have a rucksack with them if they go for a walk or a bike ride in the season to take some of those home.

Interesting, Anita. I think that Klaraepfel is what we in America call a “green transparent”. It’s the earliest apple of the year, but mostly available only at an orchard or farmers market. Not a supermarket apple.

Mk Neal wrote:Interesting, Anita. I think that Klaraepfel is what we in America call a “green transparent”. It’s the earliest apple of the year, but mostly available only at an orchard or farmers market. Not a supermarket apple.

My grandfather used to talk about "transparents" as a type of apple... all those old varieties that we never see any more.
We planted a "wolf river" apple an it has never put out fruit.  Not sure what we are doing wrong.  Our feral trees make lots of fruit, and our other little apple tree makes a few apples each years too.

Here is a quick summary of some of the more common North American varieties of cooking apples.  I dug this up from my cooking archives, but don't recall from where I originally downloaded it; probably from the Old Farmer's Almanac, but not certain.  Some of these varieties are already discussed above.

Unfortunately, while this provides a little background knowledge, it doesn't solve the basic dilemma that, so long as he remains in a highly urban metroplex, the OP will likely have access to none of these!  Maybe Fuji, Gala, or Granny Smith if you're lucky.  I'm an American born and bread, and I'll be the first to opine that the quality and variety of apples available in the average US grocery store is abysmal.  I rarely bother buying any.  You really must visit an apple-growing region and shop at the orchards or their associated roadside stands.  Then you can find some variety!

And for the record, apple growing regions are not restricted to the NE or PNW, either.  I live near to the upland South, in the Appalachian foothills, and its a short drive for me to some good apple orchards.

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BEST APPLES FOR DIFFERENT CULINARY USES

Almost any apple can be enjoyed when eaten fresh. However, not all apples are ideal for the kitchen. Below is a chart with some of the best baking and cooking apples in North America.

Note: When it comes to cooking with apples, it may be helpful to know the following:
1 pound of apples = 2 large, 3 medium, or 4 to 5 small apples
1 pound of apples = 3 cups peeled and sliced apples

NAME                              BEST USES                     FLAVOR CHARACTERISTICS, APPEARANCE
Braeburn                        Sauce                             Tart, sweet, aromatic, tall shape, bright color
Cortland                          Pies, Sauces, Salad      Tart, crisp, larger than 'McIntosh'
Fuji                                  Baking                            Sweet and juicy, firm, red skin
Gala                                Dried, Cider                    Mild, sweet, juicy, crisp, yellow-orange skin with red striping (resembles a peach)
Granny Smith                Baking                             Moderately sweet, crisp flesh, green skin
Jonagold                         Pie, Sauce                       Tangy-sweet, Yellow top, red bottom
Jonathan                         Sauce                              Tart flesh, crisp, juicy, bright red on yellow skin
McIntosh                        Sauce                              Juicy, sweet, pinkish-white flesh, red skin
Newton Pippin               Pie, Sauce, Cider           Sweet-tart flesh, crisp, greenish-yellow skin
Rhode Isl. Greening      Pie                                   Very tart, distinctively flavored, grass-green skin, tending toward yellow/orange
Rome Beauty                 Baking, Cider                  Mildly tart, crisp, greenish-white flesh, thick skin
Winesap                         Sauce, Pie, Cider             Very juicy, sweet-sour flavor, winey, aromatic, sturdy, red skin