Service Entrance Panel - I’m concerned

The real-estate agent posted - new 200AMP panel . . . Well, it looked new form the outside and I had bigger problems.

Today I started planning a new circuit in the basement as I need a GFCI receptacle for my sump pump. When I opened up the panel, I was a little dismayed. Maybe it’s just  a little OCD and like stuff neatly laid out. This is what I found:





I have very low confidence in anything being as it should be. There’s no obvious grounding cable. I have found random bits of disconnected plumbing in the basement, hanging on what once could have been (and shouldn’t have been) grounding cables. There must be one . . . Right?

In addition - the panel has no labels - there’s a Bit Badge for me there and I’m building a spreadsheet in the meantime. I have discovered weird stuff like a receptacle under the kitchen sink which is on a bedroom circuit. There are no GFCI receptacles in the kitchen or bathroom but one in the living room. The smallest bedroom has it’s own service panel and 6 duplex receptacles, all grounded but the largest room, the dining room, only has two receptacles and neither is grounded. The bathroom has a 240v receptacle right next to a sink! (I still can’t used to having receptacles / power sockets in bathrooms in the US - it’s a big “no no” in the UK.) I’m pretty sure it’s actually 120v as there’s no 240v cable leading from the basement to anywhere other than the kitchen, but I may be wrong. It’s possible that the bathroom once had a drier installed.

I get the feeling that over time, like the plumbing, I’ll be replacing most of what currently exists. Do I work with this panel as is? Call in an electrician? Work my way through the electricity badge until I’m confident enough to tackle myself? Or am I just being paranoid and this is perfectly normal for an old house?

In the meantime a random pipe of unknown purpose, valve has started dripping and needs my attention. At least with water, the worst that can happen is I get a bit wet . . .

What is are 'GFCI receptacles" please?
Without knowing anything about North American regs. my experience in Australia is that if its that neat, it may be ok.
Can you run a new earth stake into the ground and improve or create the required earth?
Here, using the plumbing to earth the circuits was stopped years ago, plumbers were getting electrocuted!
I am with you on power outlets near water and sinks.
As much as it hurts I suggest getting an electrician in for a basic check all over.
At least it will be safe immediately rather than when you finish study.

Ok, so a UK perspective here.

Objectively.
That looks like a TNC earthing system. Two phases (split phase) and a Combined protective earth neutral PEN (big aluminium wire going down the left. This would be a common standard in the UK except that before the consumer unit (Service Entrance Panel), you would have the meter and the TNC would get Split out to TNCS, so there is a separate earth and neutral going into the consumer unit. Then, as you're used to, earth is run, in the same cable, on a different wire, to every circuit in the house.

The earths connecting bits of plumbing would be part of a PME (protective multiple earths) system. Without a separate earth that would be dangerous, as current is always flowing in the PEN when any devices are used. If the PEN gets disconnected, the voltage on the plumbing would rise towards line voltage (120V) through any connected appliances.

There are 2 circuit's with red wires that are not ganged to a breaker with a black wire. Either those cables don't have a black wire and so are at 120V and a reasonably safe or they are part of a 240V circuit and need to be ganged to the other breaker supplying that circuit.

Subjectively.
To me, an amateur, that looks terrifying. The very first thing I would do is make sure that all exposed plumbing has a non conductive section (PEX or the like) so that no minor electrical fault energises the whole plumbing system. I would then be asking a qualified sparky to make sure the earthing is safe (and how well the street transformer is earthed, cos that's you're only safety system right now)

Long term, I would rewire the house with an earth on all circuits, I'd get rid of the sub service panel in the bedroom (WTF is it in there?!?!?), I would want whole house GFCI (dunno how's that's implemented in the US, in groups or per circuit?).

I don't know much about the regulations in the US (I'm highly suspicious of anyone who thinks that the most dangerous conductor should be the most difficult to see!) but in the UK, any electrician who wires earths into the neutral connector bus bar and has uses wirenuts/connector strips/wagos inside the consumer unit is asking to lose their licence and gain a fine.

I am not an electrician, I don't think I understand the US system. I have rerun circuits, installed GFCI's and beefed up a PME. I have not played with the main earthing on a grid connection and do not ever intend to.

I do have a question, as I understand it, as you move down the breaker panels, the breakers alternate which phase they're on, why aren't the phases on different colour wires? L1=black, L2=red, L1=black, L2=red... If I have a TV plugged in and connected to a sound system, I want to make very sure that they're on the same phase!

Well, at first blush, it looks pretty good for an old house.  Not that that's saying too much.

The big wires you call Power Line are connected where in the panel?  It's hard to see where they go.  I'd've thought they would tie in to the two big lug nuts on either side of the central one at the top.  It almost seems like they tie in down at that 220 breaker at the top of the right side.  If so, I think that might be a bit odd.  Unless they're actually feeding to that sub panel in the bedroom.

Having a proper ground is a great idea.  Around me you're supposed to have 2 ground rods and there are some specs on the length of the rods and the gauge of the wire that connects them to the panel.

220 in the bathroom was maybe for an electric heater?  Or they had a clothes dryer in there at some point?  It could be 220 if they ran hot wires from two adjacent 110V breakers to that single outlet.  Not normal but that's how it could be done.

GFCI receptacles provide GFCI protection to the rest of the circuit downstream of them.  So having one at the beginning of a stretch of outlets protects all of them.

My house from the 1960s didn't have ground wires running from the panel to the circuits.  I rewired as much as I could get to but many wires ran through walls I didn't want to tear into.  

I'd probably hire an electrician to give it a look over and tell you what it needs and what's going on with some of the confusing things.  She can do some of the things if you don't want to touch them and then you can do the rest as your projects permit.

Hi Edward,
I'm just coming back for a quick visit..... because I always liked you so much.

I haven't worked on a panel like this for over 20 years.... but.... I was an electrician for more than 16 years before I broke my back and had to give it up so..... here's what I remember.

Things to consider- Here in the U.S.-
-Before the 1960s houses were not 'grounded' per-say like you're now used to. They were wired with 2 hot wires (120 +120 = 240) and a neutral and some/most were partially grounded by running a wire from your main disconnect to a clamp on your plumbing pipe which usually went underground to a well on your property. But none of the individual circuits were ever grounded. O.K.? The olden days.
-An important point to remember is- if anyone hires an electrician they must be licensed and bonded or work directly for someone who is licensed and bonded BUT any fool homeowner can do any wiring to his own residence even if he doesn't know his ass from his elbow. Just a word of caution about past owners.
-Your incoming 'power line' is the old cloth covered wire used before 1960. If it makes you feel any better my home has a very similar wiring (built in 1964) and so do many millions of others still today. I wouldn't call it extremely safe but it still works quite well and it is too costly to replace. But I would totally replace it if I could and I removed and rewired many sections of wiring in my home that I thought were unsafe. At least it is not the really old 'knob and tube' wiring which I think should absolutely be replaced even though many people still have that as well.
-As Mike mentioned....”The big wires you call Power Line are connected where in the panel?  It's hard to see where they go.  I'd've thought they would tie in to the two big lug nuts on either side of the central one at the top.  It almost seems like they tie in down at that 220 breaker at the top of the right side.  If so, I think that might be a bit odd.” -Ordinarily, the main power wires ARE connected to the large lugs at the top of the panel and the large breaker immediately below that is your MAIN DISCONNECT. Turn that off and it shuts off power to everything. But each residence can only have one main disconnect.
-In trailers (mobile homes) their main disconnect must be located on the pole or pedestal outside of the trailer for safety reasons. It has 2 hot wires and a neutral from the meter to the disconnect and it is then grounded right there with a wire going to one or two  grounding rods depending on the codes of the state you live in.  From that point on the 'power line' that is run into the trailer must be 4 wires, 2 hot wires, one neutral and one ground wire. The ground wires and the neutral wires always  remain separated after that. The main disconnect is the only point in the system where ground wires and neutral wires are allowed to connect.
-For some reason the electrician who installed the new panel did not use the top lugs and main breaker. Can't see the picture very clearly but looks like he spliced the old wires to new and ran it to the breaker on the top right side. So this might not be your main disconnect? Is there a main disconnect outside near the meter OR is the original wire only rated for 100 amps? That's my guess.  Is it a 200 amp breaker or a 100 amp breaker? Is it a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp power line coming in going to a 100 amp breaker? Especially considering that I can see neutral wires and ground wires attached to the neutral bars together. It suggests that this is your main disconnect with a 100 amp wire coming in.

Here is my suggestion....
I would sincerely recommend that you hire a very reputable electrician to come by and install your receptacle for your sump pump. It's the cheapest way to go. Then take him/her down to the basement and show him/her what you've got. Tell him/her what you need. Then offer a cup of tea and go upstairs to make it. Give her 5-10-15 minutes to open up the panel and assess the situation. Then go back down and ask him all your questions, discuss your many concerns and find out everything he/she can tell you. You will receive a huge amount of information.
Just remember.... You are paying this person BY THE HOUR....And
ELECTRICITY DOES NOT DESCRIMINATE....IT CAN KILL ANYONE!!!
Best wishes to you my friend.

From the photos, it's obviously a retrofit. It's a little unusual (and a little untidy) but it might be okay.

The panel itself absolutely has to have an earth ground, though. Maybe it's somewhere I can't see in the photo -- it's often a twisted bare or green copper wire that's pretty thick. Perhaps it comes in with the mains?

It's worth having an electrician look at your setup, if only to spot anything that is clearly unsafe.

John C Daley wrote:What is are 'GFCI receptacles" please?
Without knowing anything about North American regs. my experience in Australia is that if its that neat, it may be ok.
Can you run a new earth stake into the ground and improve or create the required earth?
Here, using the plumbing to earth the circuits was stopped years ago, plumbers were getting electrocuted!
I am with you on power outlets near water and sinks.
As much as it hurts I suggest getting an electrician in for a basic check all over.
At least it will be safe immediately rather than when you finish study.

Thanks John. When I moved to the US I had no idea what anything was called, they use a different kind of English here! GFCI are plug sockets that have a built in trip switch, one that’s very sensitive, way more sensitive than the one in the service entrance panel or as I know it, breaker box. GFCI’s are required in areas like kitchens and bathrooms, anywhere there’s water I guess. They’re also six times more expensive which probably explains when the previous owner didn’t install any. The guys loaded with nine rental properties but for whatever reason, skimped and cut corners on everything is this house. I wouldn’t want to be one of his tenants.

I’m going to get an electrician to check it out and put an earth in anyway. I’m going to be doing some earthworks out side in the Autumn, so burying a rod and wiring it up will be simple enough and good piece of mind. They also used to earth through plumbing here but that’s been banned for a while.

James Alun wrote:Ok, so a UK perspective here.

Objectively.
That looks like a TNC earthing system. Two phases (split phase) and a Combined protective earth neutral PEN (big aluminium wire going down the left. This would be a common standard in the UK except that before the consumer unit (Service Entrance Panel), you would have the meter and the TNC would get Split out to TNCS, so there is a separate earth and neutral going into the consumer unit. Then, as you're used to, earth is run, in the same cable, on a different wire, to every circuit in the house.

The earths connecting bits of plumbing would be part of a PME (protective multiple earths) system. Without a separate earth that would be dangerous, as current is always flowing in the PEN when any devices are used. If the PEN gets disconnected, the voltage on the plumbing would rise towards line voltage (120V) through any connected appliances.

There are 2 circuit's with red wires that are not ganged to a breaker with a black wire. Either those cables don't have a black wire and so are at 120V and a reasonably safe or they are part of a 240V circuit and need to be ganged to the other breaker supplying that circuit.

Subjectively.
To me, an amateur, that looks terrifying. The very first thing I would do is make sure that all exposed plumbing has a non conductive section (PEX or the like) so that no minor electrical fault energises the whole plumbing system. I would then be asking a qualified sparky to make sure the earthing is safe (and how well the street transformer is earthed, cos that's you're only safety system right now)

Long term, I would rewire the house with an earth on all circuits, I'd get rid of the sub service panel in the bedroom (WTF is it in there?!?!?), I would want whole house GFCI (dunno how's that's implemented in the US, in groups or per circuit?).

I don't know much about the regulations in the US (I'm highly suspicious of anyone who thinks that the most dangerous conductor should be the most difficult to see!) but in the UK, any electrician who wires earths into the neutral connector bus bar and has uses wirenuts/connector strips/wagos inside the consumer unit is asking to lose their licence and gain a fine.

I am not an electrician, I don't think I understand the US system. I have rerun circuits, installed GFCI's and beefed up a PME. I have not played with the main earthing on a grid connection and do not ever intend to.

I do have a question, as I understand it, as you move down the breaker panels, the breakers alternate which phase they're on, why aren't the phases on different colour wires? L1=black, L2=red, L1=black, L2=red... If I have a TV plugged in and connected to a sound system, I want to make very sure that they're on the same phase!

Thanks James, some great information and questions. I’ve also rerun circuits but stayed away from anything that’s not lights, switches and regular plug sockets. From what I remember when we bought a house in the UK, if anything like this came up in the survey, then the house sale was put on hold until it was fixed. When we bought this place, the offer included an understanding that we were buying as is and wouldn’t be asking the seller to conform to code. Why did we do this . . . The house is old, unloved and was priced accordingly. We were also buying during a massive housing shortage and competing against lots of other buyers. If we insisted on everything being fixed, then the seller wouldn’t have accepted our offer. I’ve been doing everything myself so far and haven’t hired a single contractor, which I think is a little unusual in the part of the US. (I get strange looks of incomprehension when I mention this to locals!) I’m probably going to have to budget and plan to bring in an electrician. As for your phase question . . . None of the US books I have, have any mention of it and all the example diagrams have all one colour next to each other. Black is just referred to as Live 1 and red Live 2. There’s more info on colour comparisons with UK / US / EU and AUS here.

Mike Haasl wrote:Well, at first blush, it looks pretty good for an old house.  Not that that's saying too much.

The big wires you call Power Line are connected where in the panel?  It's hard to see where they go.  I'd've thought they would tie in to the two big lug nuts on either side of the central one at the top.  It almost seems like they tie in down at that 220 breaker at the top of the right side.  If so, I think that might be a bit odd.  Unless they're actually feeding to that sub panel in the bedroom.

Having a proper ground is a great idea.  Around me you're supposed to have 2 ground rods and there are some specs on the length of the rods and the gauge of the wire that connects them to the panel.

220 in the bathroom was maybe for an electric heater?  Or they had a clothes dryer in there at some point?  It could be 220 if they ran hot wires from two adjacent 110V breakers to that single outlet.  Not normal but that's how it could be done.

GFCI receptacles provide GFCI protection to the rest of the circuit downstream of them.  So having one at the beginning of a stretch of outlets protects all of them.

My house from the 1960s didn't have ground wires running from the panel to the circuits.  I rewired as much as I could get to but many wires ran through walls I didn't want to tear into.  

I'd probably hire an electrician to give it a look over and tell you what it needs and what's going on with some of the confusing things.  She can do some of the things if you don't want to touch them and then you can do the rest as your projects permit.

Cheers Mike - good stuff. The power line is coming from the utility meter - I’m not sure what it’s called in the US, service-entance conductors? And I was baffled as it does feed directly into a breaker. I think that alone is a good enough reason for me to call in an electrician! I’m planning some earthworks this fall, so a couple of grounding rods and a separate lightning rod wouldn’t be too hard to install. My basement is unfinished an most of the electrics are just hung from ceiling joists and will need rerouting when I renovate. I’m also planning heatpumps and solar, so having a code compliant and useable panel upfront is a must.

Debbie Ann wrote:Hi Edward,
I'm just coming back for a quick visit..... because I always liked you so much.

I haven't worked on a panel like this for over 20 years.... but.... I was an electrician for more than 16 years before I broke my back and had to give it up so..... here's what I remember.

Things to consider- Here in the U.S.-
-Before the 1960s houses were not 'grounded' per-say like you're now used to. They were wired with 2 hot wires (120 +120 = 240) and a neutral and some/most were partially grounded by running a wire from your main disconnect to a clamp on your plumbing pipe which usually went underground to a well on your property. But none of the individual circuits were ever grounded. O.K.? The olden days.
-An important point to remember is- if anyone hires an electrician they must be licensed and bonded or work directly for someone who is licensed and bonded BUT any fool homeowner can do any wiring to his own residence even if he doesn't know his ass from his elbow. Just a word of caution about past owners.
-Your incoming 'power line' is the old cloth covered wire used before 1960. If it makes you feel any better my home has a very similar wiring (built in 1964) and so do many millions of others still today. I wouldn't call it extremely safe but it still works quite well and it is too costly to replace. But I would totally replace it if I could and I removed and rewired many sections of wiring in my home that I thought were unsafe. At least it is not the really old 'knob and tube' wiring which I think should absolutely be replaced even though many people still have that as well.
-As Mike mentioned....”The big wires you call Power Line are connected where in the panel?  It's hard to see where they go.  I'd've thought they would tie in to the two big lug nuts on either side of the central one at the top.  It almost seems like they tie in down at that 220 breaker at the top of the right side.  If so, I think that might be a bit odd.” -Ordinarily, the main power wires ARE connected to the large lugs at the top of the panel and the large breaker immediately below that is your MAIN DISCONNECT. Turn that off and it shuts off power to everything. But each residence can only have one main disconnect.
-In trailers (mobile homes) their main disconnect must be located on the pole or pedestal outside of the trailer for safety reasons. It has 2 hot wires and a neutral from the meter to the disconnect and it is then grounded right there with a wire going to one or two  grounding rods depending on the codes of the state you live in.  From that point on the 'power line' that is run into the trailer must be 4 wires, 2 hot wires, one neutral and one ground wire. The ground wires and the neutral wires always  remain separated after that. The main disconnect is the only point in the system where ground wires and neutral wires are allowed to connect.
-For some reason the electrician who installed the new panel did not use the top lugs and main breaker. Can't see the picture very clearly but looks like he spliced the old wires to new and ran it to the breaker on the top right side. So this might not be your main disconnect? Is there a main disconnect outside near the meter OR is the original wire only rated for 100 amps? That's my guess.  Is it a 200 amp breaker or a 100 amp breaker? Is it a 200 amp panel with a 100 amp power line coming in going to a 100 amp breaker? Especially considering that I can see neutral wires and ground wires attached to the neutral bars together. It suggests that this is your main disconnect with a 100 amp wire coming in.

Here is my suggestion....
I would sincerely recommend that you hire a very reputable electrician to come by and install your receptacle for your sump pump. It's the cheapest way to go. Then take him/her down to the basement and show him/her what you've got. Tell him/her what you need. Then offer a cup of tea and go upstairs to make it. Give her 5-10-15 minutes to open up the panel and assess the situation. Then go back down and ask him all your questions, discuss your many concerns and find out everything he/she can tell you. You will receive a huge amount of information.
Just remember.... You are paying this person BY THE HOUR....And
ELECTRICITY DOES NOT DESCRIMINATE....IT CAN KILL ANYONE!!!
Best wishes to you my friend.

Thank you Debbie! Awesome information. You and Mike are right, the power coming into the building goes into the 220 breaker. As for the rest . . . Definitely time to bring in a pro and your advice is greatly appreciated. I have lots of plans for this house but one day I will sell up. Getting everything done right now will let me do other things, give me peace of mind and smooth out the selling process. I’ll have to wait until the new year before any major expenses but when I do bring in an electrician I’ll report back.

Douglas Alpenstock wrote:From the photos, it's obviously a retrofit. It's a little unusual (and a little untidy) but it might be okay.

The panel itself absolutely has to have an earth ground, though. Maybe it's somewhere I can't see in the photo -- it's often a twisted bare or green copper wire that's pretty thick. Perhaps it comes in with the mains?

It's worth having an electrician look at your setup, if only to spot anything that is clearly unsafe.

Thank you Douglas - yes, time to bring in an electrician. I’ll report back.

Looks like undersized service entrance cable for a 200 amp service, regardless needs replaced and installed correctly.

I have seen much worse. But if in doubt, get a pro.

see the little green screw on right hand side that has a multiple tap buss bar/connection bar below it-- that should be your ground, all the bare copper ground wires are connected to it.
on the left hand side the connection bar with all the white wires connected are the neutral connections

so if you wanting to add another 120 v breaker  with Romex wire the black wire goes to breaker, the white wire to neutral connection bar and the bare ground wire to the ground connection bar on the right.  240 volt would have the black and the red wires going to breaker and white--neutral and bare wire ground
does this make sense ?

The panel looks quite neat at first glance, but the power supply coming into a breaker on the bus bars instead of the main lugs is truly weird. There is a main breaker (what amperage is it?) but it is not really doing anything. Is it defective? Maybe someone thought it would be cheaper to use a 240v breaker on the bus bars than to buy a new main breaker?

For the small room with six outlets, is it possible that someone was secretly growing plants with big lights in that room? I have seen such.

Though it may be operational and grounded and safe for the moment, this panel would never, ever, ever pass inspection where I live. Not even close. No way. As much as I chafe over permits, they have some utility sometimes.

Hard to be sure from the pic but ... EEK. What are the 2 large black wires in the upper left corner? Looks like they are active via the circuit breaker but they have electrical tape & a big glob of something underneath. Might shut that breaker off until the electrician checks into that.

Oh wait ... that's where the incoming power cables connect. Electrical tape? Seriously???

Pretty sure those are electrical lugs underneath, mechanical joining the old incoming service to the new panel with shunts. The covering may be a self-sealing tape that bonds to form a cohesive insulation, which can be acceptable in some applications. I have my doubts about using it inside a main panel.

The shunts and then the fact they aren't connected to the buses in the usual location makes me think this was an amateur job.

Hi,  maybe you might want to pound a couple steel bars into the ground and connect them to the box sooner than later.  A few minutes time could save some trouble.  I also have seen recepticals under a kitchen sink. The person used it for a dishwasher and garbage disposal.

It did not look that bad to me as I have seen a lot worse.

My house is quite similar, but it’s because it has grown and changed over the years. A lot of things that look scary really are not because they are not energized.

The great thing about electricity is, code changes over time, but outdated wiring still works. In fact it’s pretty forgiving. You can switch anything around and have it still work, as long as it is swapped in the right place. Today we have code so that everyone does thing consistently.

To me it appears someone has bypassed your main breaker, which could severely limit your available amps and create a fire hazard among other things.

I think to add anything to a flawed system could compound the problem. GFCI's, bonding wires, and ground rods can be added once any DIY repairs have been corrected...    Good Luck!