What do you do for joy and why is it important?

I just watched a TED talk about rats, joy, and why we need to put more focus in our lives on positive emotions.



I certainly see anticipatory behaviors in my ducks and geese. I personally, don't doubt that animals feel emotion.

I found the bit about how the rats seemed to prefer to "work" for their reward, vs just being given it, and I've read similar thoughts about how charity benefits the emotional health of the "giver", but actually harms the emotional health of the "receiver" (at least in most situations - emergency disaster relief could be an exception, but I know once that crisis stage is over, I would much prefer to assist in some way with the recovery of my community vs just passively accepting what others think I need. )

I can remember reading a comment from a tech giant claiming that once robots take over, everyone will have everything they need. I think that's publicity, rather than reality, myself. It may take away my joy of growing my own veggies and being surprised when some volunteer plant shows up. When I accomplish a sewing project, even if it was long and tedious, I am not convinced what I'm feeling is exactly "pride" , but rather happiness that I started something, stuck with it, and accomplished it.

So if permies are feeling a bit down from some of the horrible winter weather we're having, in may not be anti-depression herbs you need, but some pro-joy project, or activity, ideally involving other animals (that includes human animals.)

This research seems very important to us permies. No need to justify our work with fear-based rationale such as apocalypse, food shortage, economic collapse.… Working in the garden is fun and joyful!
Right now, I’m creating a strawberry bed with 40 plants. It will take 2 years, much care and protection from hungry predators for these plants to produce. The effort is considerable.
Four pounds of cleaned, trimmed, individually frozen strawberries cost about $12 at the local warehouse store. I buy 6 bags of these organic berries per year ($72). Why would I create this garden when I can easily have the berries on my table with a visit to the store once every 2 months?
From now on, I will simply respond, JOY!

This whole permie/homestead is a huge thing I do for fulfillment, as much as anything else. The critters bring me joy. Every harvest, no matter how small brings a measure of joy. But, the critters, the gardens, the land, the buildings... they're also a LOT of work, and often, as is the norm, in farm life, they can leave me bereft.

So, my joy comes from my faith, singing in our church choir, visiting with our kids & their families, my friends, and my maaaany artsy/ craftsy endeavors. As far as why these things bring me joy... They fill & heal my soul.

I have a monthly tabletop gaming meetup with a few coworkers and friends that has been a lot of fun recently. We commit to finding a date and time that works for the majority of people and make the effort to get together.

Some food, some games and some time to just relax really pays dividends for the following days. We will have conversations leading up to the day discussing what we should do and then just make it a good time.

Sometimes we have kiddos running around, other times we make an effort for just the grownups to meet up.

It is one of the better things this introvert has started to do to help push off the winter blues.

Timothy Norton wrote: It is one of the better things this introvert has started to do to help push off the winter blues.

I get the impression,  that introverts do better when there's "a plan". Certainly the introverts I live with struggle with "small talk" and neither of them drink tea, so the idea of tea and small talk is totally terrifying!

Positive thinking ...

I have to be out in Nature. Not just a 'local park' but IN Nature.  Surrounded by trees, sounds of birds & other critters, a river/creek/brook trickling near by.  We have a few nice parks with that to varying sizes.  But if I could actually get OUT in Nature everyday, just walk out my door and all is see are trees, mountains, and fields of flowers that is my joy.

Mother Earth is the only place I KNOW I heal.  So being outside is my home, my space of safety.  I take what I can now, the larger 'foresty' parks, until I can get my own bit of paradise to call home.  --Tess

Have a very similar mindset...but call it navigating by joy.

I DEFINITELY make a distinction between  happy and  joy.

The easiest way to describe the distinction is that I don't think I could be happy in a prison camp; but I could feel joy.

Because I can observe nature. I can watch an ant do its thing, and be joyful. Even in a prison camp.

Joy feels like helium for your backpack.

I've learned if you seek joy each day, it's much harder to get stuck in unhealthy thinking.

So probably for a lot of us, nature=joy (even if being in it is difficult)

Joy and curiosity are in a positive feedback loop.

It's much easier to  be your best self when you're seeking and experiencing joy.

The other cool thing with joy vs happiness:

you can be with someone who is really suffering or in deep grief and go right back to your joy when you've been there for them.

Maybe not so for happiness, at least for me.

Hope this helps.

If someone tells me a poet already wrote exactly this, I would laugh and say: Well.....I studied engineering; not English, and that may have stunted my spiritual growth for awhile...

But I am pleased to be in this spot and thank Jon Kabat Zin, Michael Singer, Don Miguel Ruiz, Rumi and many others to help me along my path to peace.

I do describe the book 'Untethered Soul' as a flashlight to help you find the path to peace (and eventually joy too)

Wishing you abundant joy!

-JP

Carla Burke wrote:This whole permie/homestead is a huge thing I so for fulfillment, as much as anything else. The critters bring me joy. Every harvest, no matter how small brings a measure of joy. But, the critters, the gardens, the land, the buildings... they're also a LOT of work, and often, as is the norm, in farm life, they can leave me bereft.

So, my joy comes from my faith, singing in our church choir, visiting with our kids & their families, my friends, and my maaaany artsy/ craftsy endeavors. As far as why these things bring me joy... They fill & heal my soul.

That is so beautifully worded Carla, thank you!

J.P. Waters wrote:Have a very similar mindset...but call it navigating by joy.

I DEFINITELY make a distinction between  happy and  joy.

The easiest way to describe the distinction is that I don't think I could be happy in a prison camp; but I could feel joy.

Because I can observe nature. I can watch an ant do its thing, and be joyful. Even in a prison camp.

Joy feels like helium for your backpack.

I've learned if you seek joy each day, it's much harder to get stuck in unhealthy thinking.

So probably for a lot of us, nature=joy (even if being in it is difficult)

Joy and curiosity are in a positive feedback loop.

It's much easier to  be your best self when you're seeking and experiencing joy.

The other cool thing, is joy vs happiness.

Is that you can be with someone who is really suffering or in deep grief and go right back to your joy when you've been there for them.

Maybe not so for happiness, at least for me.

Hope this helps.

If someone tells me a poet already wrote exactly this, I would laugh and say: Well.....I studied engineering; not English, and that may have stunted my spiritual growth for awhile...

But I am pleased to be in this spot and thank Jon Kabat Zin, Michael Singer, Don Miguel Ruiz, Rumi and many others to help me along my path to peace.

I do describe the book 'Untethered Soul' as a flashlight to help you find the path to peace (and eventually joy too)

Wishing you abundant joy!

-JP

JP, love this distinction!!  Resonates deeply with me, as I'm sure many others.  I am able to find joy, even if I can't feel happiness at a given moment or within a circumstance.  Joy is so necessary in life, but happiness can be fleeting.  Joy is like a statement we make even if we can't feel happiness.  And, for me, it seems to stay with me longer.  If that makes any sense.  I got the book Untethered Soul and look forward to reading it, it was recommended by my daughter.

I will check out the other authors you mentioned, as I have heard of them (even read a book or two from them).  --Tess

In some ways, the wife and I live the Maine dream at least, which is in living on an island, off from another island, with views of the ocean in every window, even the laundry room. But here is the thing no one tells you about coastal life: after about a month, you get used to the views and think nothing of them.

But yesterday as I was working outside doing some carpentry, the apricity was high (the warmth of the sun in winter making it feel warmer than it really is), the seagulls were cawing, the deer were looking to be fed, and the boats were out in the harbor, and I realized where I was and what I was doing.

It was nice.

Normally I find joy in writing, but my wife pushes me regarding it. The first words upon waking is: “How many words did you write today?” It’s nice that she takes an interest, but she also guilts me into high word counts and it robs my joy of the hobby.

I have not written lately. There has just been too many distractions as I look around my half-completed kitchen and realized how, when, and where I will get them all done. If I could just redo an ending for my latest book I will have completed my 19th novel, but in a few weeks I will get back to writing. I am sure of it.

And yes, for those that remember the Permies novel I was working on. Yes, I did finish it.

Picture is crappy since our windows have window screens but taken from my recliner.

The book I wrote about Permies living might be interesting. It starts with a permie man who hears surveyors driving in stakes on his farm who inform him he is losing his farm by eminent domain. In anger he punches the surveyor and ends up in jail. A mother/wife/lawyer ends up taking him as a pro bono case and defends him and the potential loss of his farm.

She resonates because her middle daughter is struggling with her own tiny home on some recently bought land that is FAR from ideal to farm on. Steep, bad soil, etc and her mother… a lawyer… cannot understand the ways of her daughter, like… at all.

Then the daughter meets the perfect lover at a farmers market, and they hit it off only to find out her mother is his attorney. Worse yet, the husband/father works for MeDOT who is taking his farm. Suddenly everything is a mess! But it gets worse, the two have had relations (it is a romance-permie story after all) and the daughter makes a meal for her boyfriend and is going to tell him she is with children… twins… after he gets done helping her farm her place with his small tractor. Except he rolls it on the steep land and ends up losing his right arm from forced amputation.

Its bad: he is about to lose his ideal farm to eminent domain, he is being prosecuted for assault to a government official, his girlfriend is having twins and he just lost his arm…

Spoiler alert: Stop reading here if you do not want to know the ending. It does not end the way you think it will!

The mother/wife/attorney puts up a fight in court, but just before the trial a terrible accident occurs and a car driven by teens hits a tree and the driver is killed. At court, the permie man realizes the state wants to improve the roads for safety sake and after thoughtful consideration, willingly gives up his farm to eminent domain. The novel ends with the daughter/girlfriend giving birth in the tiny home as the two realize, despite losing a farm that was 100 times better than what the daughter/girlfriend has, they are going to make the best of it; as permies and as parents. And the mother/wife/lawyer realizes too, her daughters life is going to be very different than that of the path she chose.

Ultimately the theme of the novel is this: acceptance and making the best of what you have.

It sounds corny here in such a blurb, but its a cute novel and would resonate with any permie who has ever struggled with family questioning why such a lifestyle. It might also resonate with those who have great things plucked from their hand due to unfortunate circumstances they had no control of. This novel however, is not yet published.

I like it!

The rats choosing the puzzle over the free snack just makes sense when you watch animals day in and day out. My geese do the same thing: they’ll ignore a pile of grain if they can chase me around the yard first or root through a fresh compost heap I just turned. It’s not about the food; it’s the whole game of it.You’re right about the sewing and the volunteer plants. That little rush when something you worked on actually comes together, or when a random seed decides to grow where it wasn’t supposed to that’s the good stuff. Handing everyone perfect everything on a plate sounds like a recipe for feeling flat. I’d miss the mess and the surprises too.
This winter’s been a slog, hasn’t it? Gray, damp, never quite cold enough to feel crisp, just enough to make everything feel heavy. I’ve been feeling it. Last week I was out there anyway, rain jacket on, tossing some extra greens to the ducks and just sitting on an overturned bucket watching them paddle around like nothing’s wrong. It’s dumb simple, but it pulled me out of my head for a while.

We have on our 8 acre permaculture farm now 7 dogs.
Not the class breeds but all have a story no race breed has to tell.
 
Strays killed in the first year almost 20 chickens in one go and there are 3 packs lurking around owning a territory of 25 Squarekilometers.

Lucky me I grew up near a trainings field for police and guard dogs so the lingo is not a book with 7 seals for me.

1st I had to choose some dogs and the best way to see is feeding them. If a puppy defend her/his food even against the alpha male or bitch that is a dog I want off the street.
Scooters with side cars are the top dog bribe. Start feeding them beside the scooter and later in the side car, then make a few turns and watch the tails wiggling after just two rides.

2nd take them home and teach them playful.
Give their boundaries and intro them to all farm animals.

One of the dogs was due to be BBQ'd by a nut case and I bought her of him for 2 USD. This dog turned out to be a genious.
15 Minutes were way too short for learning and she always wanted learn more tricks.
Now 16 month old she takes matters into her paws.

"Seven (named after the store we found the guy and her) bring the chicken back!"
and she will herd the escaped chicks back into the paddock never bites but love to hit them if they playing stubborn with her paw.

Raise alarm
"The pack comes!!" ...and 7 dogs will storm without hesitation towards the strays which meanwhile gave up their territory around our farm.

They are some characters but little seven is just special.
The day she came on our farm she was the law, the toy and the scallywagg in black.
She loved from the first day to stick to me and is always this kind of happy.

Therefore the answer to the topic.
Stray dogs give me the most pleasure despite they are more challenging to teach but eventually will be great guard/farm dogs.

Picture 1 Seven (from eleven) 8 weeks and picture 2 16 month old and her habits in human words.

Tess Misch wrote:I have to be out in Nature. Not just a 'local park' but IN Nature.  Surrounded by trees, sounds of birds & other critters, a river/creek/brook trickling near by.  We have a few nice parks with that to varying sizes.  But if I could actually get OUT in Nature everyday, just walk out my door and all is see are trees, mountains, and fields of flowers that is my joy.

Mother Earth is the only place I KNOW I heal.  So being outside is my home, my space of safety.  I take what I can now, the larger 'foresty' parks, until I can get my own bit of paradise to call home.  --Tess

Exactly, this is how I connect with my spirituality and serenity as well.
The forests, deserts, canyons and rivers are my holy cathedrals.

Also recently read about Awe, something I experience every time I take my dogs for a walk and am outside and how expressing and feeling it creates a positive feedback loop that helps us mentally and physically.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10018061/

In the woods, we return to reason and faith. There I feel that nothing can befall me in life—no disgrace, no calamity (leaving me my eyes), which nature cannot repair. Standing on the bare ground—my head bathed by the blithe air and uplifted into infinite space—all mean egotism vanishes. I become a transparent eyeball; I am nothing; I see all; the currents of the Universal Being circulate through me; I am part or parcel of God. The name of the nearest friend sounds then foreign and accidental; to be brothers, to be acquaintances, master or servant, is then a trifle and a disturbance. I am the lover of uncontained and immortal beauty.

—Emerson (1836/2009, pp. 3-4)

Kinda reminds me, these past several days I’ve been working in an office building, pulling wire over a high (20-30’) drop ceiling. I have to navigate my hydraulic lift around chairs and cubicles and other furniture, as well as lights and speakers and acoustic baffles and stuff hanging from the ceiling, and around office workers because this is an actively used space!

And I’m doing it mostly on my own, and the space above the ceiling is full of obstacles like ducts and beams and sprinkler pipes and tons of old existing wiring. So my wires get caught and I have to go back and forth, back and forth, untangling, pulling a little more, going back, untangling…

Each time I move my lift I have to watch out for the aforementioned obstacles. It is brutally slow and very stressful.

Still, looking down at the office workers I’m reminded of my previous career which was very much like theirs. Sitting at a computer doing mostly nothing (they scroll on their phones most of the day—I’ve watched them!), strolling over to someone else’s cubicle for a chat, wandering over to a table to do a bit of a jigsaw puzzle…and it makes me realize what an unfulfilling waste of time that job mostly felt like, and especially what it looks like now from the outside.

In the middle of our day yesterday, a coworker asked which career I prefer: my previous one (UX researcher) or this one (electrician). I said, “this one and it’s not even close!” It’s so much more fulfilling, and even after a long stressful, physically taxing day, once those wires are in place I go home with joy and the feeling of having really accomplished something.

I've discovered that living within walking distance of a creek or river or even a pond is really important for me, and availing of walking to visit it of course.  I gain so much emotional connection and fulfillment from water, the ocean, lakes, rivers, creeks, etc.  The best is when I can get in it, but being on or near it is also healthful for me.  I feel closer to God when in the cathedral of the woods for sure.

I got back a couple weeks ago from 2 weeks in Costa Rica.
I was really happy while there, interacting with the local wildlife, swimming in the ocean, eating the local food.  But I would say the joy I experienced there was when I was with my family that were able to vacation with us.
Then, when I got home. here in Montana.  I noticed I was happier than the past couple weeks.  Joy at being at my place, Joy of getting back with the animals, and then when my dog saw me we both shared what I would call JOY!

I think Mr. Jung came up with a pretty good list :

maintaining good physical and mental health.

Good personal and intimate relationships.

satisfying work and a reasonable standard of living.

seeing beauty in art and nature

a philosophical or religious outlook that fosters resilience


I think gratitude is an effective mirror for reflecting into the present and future all of the good and joyous things of the past.


Knowing that I, many good friends, and everyone here, have put up the good fight for what's right for many years.

Here's an article with well thought out definition of this in our modern world:

https://stylman.substack.com/p/from-fiat-everything-to-real-everything

I have a lot of animals at my place… my chickens run to me when they see me coming, that’s joyful.  In the morning I open a part of the barn where there are some favorite nests and 2 or 3 chickens dash in!  I wonder if they have been standing with their legs crossed, desperate to lay their eggs, wondering what will they DO, where will they go, if I don’t show up soon and open thae door.

The guineas are part of the chicken flock, they shout deafeningly loud when any thing out of the ordinary occurs.  They behave like thugs, bullies, cowards.  I love them.  They’re as funny as the hens.  Just guineas being guineas.

I love to see the chickens being chickens- fulfilling their chicken natures, cats being perfectly cat, dogs being dogs, sheep being sheep.  

I love to see the mountains being mountains too.  I guess if I thought deeply about it, I would get joy out of the mud in my driveway being mud.

I’m not saying I don’t train my animals!  I have a ram, and he is sweet tempered, but someone put the fear of rams in me, so I am wary.  He’s last year’s lamb, so quite young.  He was protective of the ewes, should I spell that possessive last fall during breeding season.

When the ewes lambed, he was quite attentive, and seems to keep an eye on the lambs.  I have no idea what he would do if a stranger showed up in the pasture, but it appears he accepts my presence, all the sheep come to me in the field.  If I am out there and the ram touches me with his forehead, I rob him of his dignity… I grab a couple of his legs and make him end up on his back.  He needs to understand I am not a subordinate member of the group.

But he is sweet and kind, and clearly he feels a bond with the other sheep, and to me he is fulfilling his ram nature.

This community of animals brings me joy.  I enjoy the inanimate mud and rocks and gravity and mountains and sunsets, but the living beings that show a fondness for me, that fills my heart.  They allow me to observe their private lives.

When I go out to the pasture, the dogs come too, and the cats.  The cats constellate themselves a casual distance from me, they keep watch on me while they do whatever else they are doing.

When I walk to the mailbox, about 1/3 mile, the cats accompany me down the driveway and then they take cover in my neighbor’s woodland next to the road while I continue on to the mailbox.  But they wait for me, and accompany me home again.

It brings me joy to write about it.

Why is it important? Plenty of reasons, take your pick!

I have been obsessed with health and longevity since my mother died in her early 40s when I was a child. So for me, finding joy is key to bolstering my health. I wrote the post above at bedtime last night, and I spent some time on it, meaning I spent some time dwelling in joy and describing joy.

I slept very very well last night and I attribute that to the time I spent writing the post and contemplating personal joy.

I was a lifelong insomniac until the age of 72. I discovered yoga nidra and practiced it every night at bedtime and anytime I awoke during the night. After two years, I became a competent sleeper! YAY!  I don’t do yoga nidra anymore, but contemplating joy as I end my day brings me restorative deep sleep.

The woman in video looks a bit like one source of joy, Kate McKinnon! Along with her, comedy from the likes of Maria Bamford, Paul F. Thompkins, Andy Daly, Seth Morris, Jordan Morris, John Hodgman, Dan Lippert (on the podcasts Comedy Bang Bang, Bonanas for Bonanza, Affirmation Nation, Man Dog Pod, Jordan Jesse Go, Judge John Hodgman) while working in the garden or on construction projects are ongoing sources of joy.

I also find joy in a hike/backpack, kayak, canoe, raft, and bike through natural areas while trying to help leave them healthier, cleaner and more accessible for others. Doing projects and leading workshops and work parties with our Wild Rivers Permaculture Guild is another source of joy and deep intrinsic rewards for me. Oh and of course dogs having fun!

edit: and dancing to live music with friends

This is a beautiful topic.
    The past three years have full of loss and change; 3 deaths from my circle of love that have affected me profoundly and two more that rocked my world but didn't knock me down.  Other losses too, ones that we all experience.  I'll head over to a forum on grief and loss to expand on that; in the meantime, I'll get back to joy.
     Even when I can't feel joy, I'm aware of it surrounding me and holding me up.  Nature, always nature.  Walking with my dog and watching her swing from vines, fight with logs, and tear through the woods at full speed.  Running my fingers through her fur and burying my face in it.
      Gratitude for the first sip of coffee in the morning, my faith, my family, and for the way past "trauma" has become nothing but a tool to help others.
        A month ago,  my friend's dog Luna woke up paralyzed. Long story short, she opted to try treatment, surgery was performed, and last week I received a video of Luna jumping up and walking 6 ft. (1.8m) feet before having to rest.  I remembered what joy was, I felt it, yay!  And now I have joy about having the feeling of joy again.
       

Something else I need to mention about joy here in “Paul’s living room”.

Years ago a man had a dream.  That dream became permies.com.  It’s open to all, it’s free and there are hardly any rules, just be nice, plus some house keeping details.

That Paul dreamed his dream, and was able to attain it through “blood sweat and tears” (figuratively if not literally, because I was not there beside him and I do not “know” ) has changed lives.

The idea that you had this idea, Paul, and gave enough effort to it to accomplish it, that brings me joy.

Thank you!

Joy can sometimes be simply watching others demonstrate their happiness - even total strangers.

I had to drop Hubby at the airport this morning, and there was a lady dropping off a group of three, one of whom was more than a head taller and broad shouldered. She stood on tip-toes and gave him a giant hug and they both looked so happy, and then moved on to a more regular sized lady and gave her the same treatment. It was joyful for me to see their joy, and it was a good reminder that despite all the doom and gloom in the news, regular people are out there being happy!

I do a lot of things for joy and feel a really deep need for it, for myself and for my 5 kids.  Nature is huge, and that's one reason I put out a free nature/foraging magazine for kids and their grown ups (Wild Kids Magazine), to help spread that.  Playing is big too -- playing pool at the free community arts center our family created out of a rescued 125 year old church, playing pickleball with my kids at the Y, playing tennis in the street with my son, playing Poetry for Neanderthals with my family, whatever.  Spending time with friends is huge. I have to travel to spend time with my best friend but I find a way to do it every few months for a week or so because it feels me and my kids and her family up so much.

But writing poetry is another way, even if the poems seem anything but joyful when I'm writing them.  And combining poetry with nature is the biggest.  I wrote this last fall when I was feeling less than joyful and it really helped. Combining art and nature always helps me find joy.

I gotta say I completely agree with you,

Lack of purpose was a big shadow in my life that reared its ugly head last summer. Yet taking a step back and changing my perspective on a few things, I found I am more closer to my goals then I have ever been.

Reading, foraging and learning to play the fiddle have moved to the top of my to do list.

I stepped away from my corporate job, and now I am spending my days learning new skills and seeing what I can build, work, create at home. Trying to make some sense outta this madness lol

Not to get all sappy, but I am really thankful my fiancee told me about this website, it really did change my perspective on a WHOLE lotta things.



Cheers everyone!

Hi Jack,
Good to have you on the team!

Jack Sato wrote:I gotta say I completely agree with you,

Lack of purpose was a big shadow in my life that reared its ugly head last summer. Yet taking a step back and changing my perspective on a few things, I found I am more closer to my goals then I have ever been.

Reading, foraging and learning to play the fiddle have moved to the top of my to do list.

I stepped away from my corporate job, and now I am spending my days learning new skills and seeing what I can build, work, create at home. Trying to make some sense outta this madness lol

Not to get all sappy, but I am really thankful my fiancee told me about this website, it really did change my perspective on a WHOLE lotta things.





Cheers everyone!

A hearty welcome, Jack!

Bringing joy to other people, and seeing joy on their faces, brings joy to me.

This morning a youngish couple came by Hubby's Egg Stand. The fellow saw our "Goose Eggs" sign. Goose eggs are a spring specialty. The ladies only lay every second day for about 2 months. The lady looked doubtful - I have a feeling she's going to get the job of cooking them!

But their enthusiasm and joy of getting the Goose eggs and some duck eggs, has made my day! There are much worse foods they could spend their money on.