Two years until I can plant a fruit tree... can I start something now?

Bart Brinkmann wrote:So I'm finally graduating this spring, which means we're closer to getting some acreage, but we're probably still 2 years away from actually purchasing land to build on. We know we're staying in this area and I'm wondering if I can start experimenting with some fruit trees now that we might be able to bring with us. We eventually plan to have several apple trees, a pear tree, apricot, and peach. I'd like to play around with either grafting or espalier and I've seen some pretty elaborate combinations of both for sale at some local nurseries. I've got a spot I can put a couple of trees in nursery containers, if I could realistically start growing something right now. We live in town with a fenced yard, so wildlife isn't an issue right now. Do I have any options?

R Scott wrote:Depending on the space you have, you could start hundreds or even thousands of trees in sand beds. A 4x4 foot square foot garden bed can hold over 2000 seedlings.

R Scott wrote:Depending on the space you have, you could start hundreds or even thousands of trees in sand beds. A 4x4 foot square foot garden bed can hold over 2000 seedlings.

Bart Brinkmann wrote:...From what I read, the larger the apple tree is, the less it might yield?

Now that I've looked into it a little more, I'm leaning toward what John said about trying to gain some experience now rather than start a crop of trees. It looks like the dwarf-grafted apple trees start producing pretty quickly too.

Bart Brinkmann wrote:...From what I read, the larger the apple tree is, the less it might yield?

Cj Verde wrote:That must be out of context. A large apple tree can easily yield 800 lbs as opposed to 32 lbs for a dwarf tree.

John Wolfram wrote:

Bart Brinkmann wrote:...From what I read, the larger the apple tree is, the less it might yield?

Cj Verde wrote:That must be out of context. A large apple tree can easily yield 800 lbs as opposed to 32 lbs for a dwarf tree.

In general, the larger the trees you use, the lower your yield is per acre. With full sized apple trees at 40 foot spacings, you can have 27 of those trees per acre yielding 22,000 pounds of apples (800x27). Alternatively, you could plant 1,100 dwarf trees per acre in a tall spindle style and get over 30,000 pounds per acre. Additionally, the full size apple trees would probably take over a decade to get anywhere near 20,000 pounds while the dwarf trees would be producing in a fraction of that time. The flip side is that the full size trees require less initial cost, less maintenance, and will produce for decades after the dwarf trees have died.

John Wolfram wrote:In general, the larger the trees you use, the lower your yield is per acre. With full sized apple trees at 40 foot spacings, you can have 27 of those trees per acre yielding 22,000 pounds of apples (800x27). Alternatively, you could plant 1,100 dwarf trees per acre in a tall spindle style and get over 30,000 pounds per acre. Additionally, the full size apple trees would probably take over a decade to get anywhere near 20,000 pounds while the dwarf trees would be producing in a fraction of that time. The flip side is that the full size trees require less initial cost, less maintenance, and will produce for decades after the dwarf trees have died.

Bart Brinkmann wrote:
That helps quite a bit too. In reading about a lot of the dwarf stock, I had read that those trees are shorter-lived than full-sized trees. Another thing that bothered me was that it sounds like most of the dwarf varieties require some support. I had wondered about pruning to keep them smaller and more manageable - especially since I'm interested in espalier anyway (which will require a whole new type of support, I realize).

With the shorter lifespan of the dwarf rootstock, perhaps a root from seed is better if I plan to espalier it anyway?

So maybe this is a route I can take this spring - start 10-20 apple trees from seed that I can plan on grafting in a couple of years? If I do this, are there specific types of seeds I should start with?

Bart Brinkmann wrote:I forgot to ask about production for full-sized rootstock - if I plan to prune pretty vigilantly and keep my trees around 10 -15 feet, how many years should I expect before those trees start producing?

John Wolfram wrote:

Bart Brinkmann wrote:I forgot to ask about production for full-sized rootstock - if I plan to prune pretty vigilantly and keep my trees around 10 -15 feet, how many years should I expect before those trees start producing?

Back in 2010 planted 25 trees from Adams County Nursery. This nursery sells trees that were grafted two years earlier (so add 2 years to these times if you are starting with rootstock, 3 years if you are starting from seed).

The peach trees produced a little bit in 2011, a good crop in 2012, and a really good crop in 2013.
The apples produced a little in 2012, and a decent amount in 2013.
The pears produced a little in 2013 and a pretty good amount in 2014.
I have yet to get a cherry.
I have yet to get a plum from the tree planted in 2010, but in 2013 I got a couple from plum trees planted in 2011.

Kate Muller wrote:

R Scott wrote:Depending on the space you have, you could start hundreds or even thousands of trees in sand beds. A 4x4 foot square foot garden bed can hold over 2000 seedlings.

I would love more information on sand beds for starting trees. I have very sandy soil and I want to start trees and shrubs form seed this spring.

Bart Brinkmann wrote:Thanks John. That makes me think that if I get started grafting a few plants this year, they should be ready to put in the ground in a couple of years. Do you recall what type of rootstock was on your apples?

Jennifer Smith wrote:Would collecting locally grown apples be best for rootstock?

Jose Reymondez wrote:Just my experience with peach trees. Transplanted year-old peaches in pots as well as transplanting year-old volunteers grew to 2-4 feet tall while directly seeded peach pits got to 5-6 feet in their first year.

So my one-year old directly seeded peaches are twice as tall as my transplanted two-year-old peaches.

So waiting and doing it right can have its advantages.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:You can graft just about any fruit tree to another fruit tree, I would stick with apples to apples while you are learning. The peaches, plums, pears, cherries, all can be easily grafted to one host trunk if you so desire.

John Wolfram wrote:

Bryant RedHawk wrote:You can graft just about any fruit tree to another fruit tree, I would stick with apples to apples while you are learning. The peaches, plums, pears, cherries, all can be easily grafted to one host trunk if you so desire.

You sure about the pears? All the other trees in that sentence are in genus Prunus, while the pears are in genus Pyrus. They might live for a little while, but it probably wouldn't have good long term prospects.

Pears are from the family Rosaceae, tribe Pyreae and this includes several genera Dichotomanthes, Eriobotrya, Rhaphiolepis, Sirbus, Heteromeles, Aronia, Amelanchier, Pyrus (pears), Malus (Apples), Macromeles and Eriolobus.

Tribe Prunus also belongs to the family Rosaceae, as are, Alchemilla, Sorbus , Crataegus , Cotoneaster and Rubus. Important fruits of the family Rosaceae include apples, pears, quinces, apricots, plums, cherries, peaches, raspberries, loquats, strawberries and almonds.

In grafting, you can have success with any sicon as long as it is being grafted to a member of its Tribe or even Family.

Sam Van Aken, Creator of the Tree of Fourty Fruits, all grafts of genus Prunus or pitted fruit trees.

So in answer, yes I am certain about the pears being compatible for grafting. One new graft that is currently coming to markets is the Potato (root stock) to Tomato (sicon) there are several nurseries bringing this one to market this year.

Peter Ellis wrote:I am struck, from this thread, by the idea that one might plant literally hundreds of dwarf apple trees in an area, also plant a smaller number of full size apples in that area, and thereby get a rapid initial yield, then a succession from the dwarf trees to the full size trees for a continuing apple yield while converting over from the dwarf trees to other sorts of understory plantings.

Bryant RedHawk wrote: In grafting, you can have success with any sicon as long as it is being grafted to a member of its Tribe or even Family...So in answer, yes I am certain about the pears being compatible for grafting.

Each unique Tree of 40 Fruit grows over forty different types of stone fruit including peaches, plums, apricots, nectarines, cherries, and almonds.

John Wolfram wrote:CJ, the message boards on Snopes are calling that picture a photoshoped image. See also the animation in this article. While there might be 40 different cultivars on that tree, the chances of them all being in full bloom at once is not likely.

Additionally, the description states the grafting has been limited to genus Prunus:

Each unique Tree of 40 Fruit grows over forty different types of stone fruit including peaches, plums, apricots, nectarines, cherries, and almonds.

Bryant RedHawk wrote:Hau, Bart, sounds like you have a great plan now.

The best way to propagate mountain ash (Sorbus scopulina) is to take cuttings from green wood.
Take cuttings in the spring, after the last frost, that are from the green wood, about 15-20 cm long, strip all of the leaves except the last two or three.
Dip the cuttings in a rooting hormone and then stick the cuttings in moist, warm sand and keep the cuttings warm until the cuttings begin to root.
Rooting may begin as soon as 8 weeks. You can check by gently probing around the cutting.