Who's propagating what and how are you doing it?

A quick subject search produced a few threads but not much nitty, gritty experience.  It seems to me that this is a skill worth acquiring.  I've had a bit of success with softwood cuttings of edible blue honeysuckle,  highbush cranberry, highbush blueberrry, and goumi.  I've had more failure than success.  I've not done enough to figure out a great deal about what I've done right and what I've done wrong.  I have concluded (maybe) from this year's failures which were all due to the cutting stem rotting that the peat pots should not be soaked.  Basically, leave the pots and the rooting medium dry.  Plant transpiration seems to create enough moisture in the "greenhouse".

I haven't had a go at hardwood cuttings but I plan to this winter with some male and female sea buckthorn.  So far what I've gleaned is that I need to keep the bottom warm to stimulate rooting and keep the top cold to stop bud break.  I've also been told that Promix BX is the rooting medium of choice by nurseries who take cuttings.  The bottom heat/top cold arrangement is a bottomed heat cold frame.  Not wanting to get into much expense too quickly,  I'm thinking of taking a large, deep tupperware tub that we have and putting a heating mat under some vapour barrier that goes up the walls of the a bit.  The vapour barrier would keep any moisture away from the heating mat. Then fill the tub up to the level of the vapour barrier with Promix.  Under and around the outside walls of the tub, I'd strap on some leftover R-4 insulation board to keep cold out of the bottom and direct heat from the heating mat up.  I don't know if the heating mat will generate enough heat.  I've been told by a nursery man who does hardwood cuttings that he keeps the bottom heat around 50ºF. I'd leave the top open to the cold.  I'd put in on the porch where the sun can't get at it and possibly cause bud break. 

Anyone else got any propagation experiences to share?

I put lots of Persimmon seeds in the ground.
They are in a row about 1 inch deep.

I tried this with Walnuts and it worked great.

Has anyone tried making a rooting hormone liquid using willow stems and boiled water? Supposedly it works better than commercial rooting powders & gels. I tried it once but left the liquid too long and it went moldy.

I tried the willow thing, will 'try' again. no luck last time.

I have been layering malus, vaccinium, pyrus, and ribes. last year, by accident, got 3 nice ribes to root from 'breakings' after neighbors dog mauled a plant. also got some malus roots by luck fomr a semi feral tree, next spring Ive got two 100+ yo orchards that have been feral for 30+ years each, both having 50+ trees- all mangled- but still making nice jacks and a some heirlooms- ill be gathering scion wood for certain.

should have done this all a decade ago

Deston Lee wrote:

I have been layering malus, vaccinium, pyrus, and ribes.

Exactly how are you layering each? 

I took a greenhouse management course a while ago, and a common method was to put cuttings in a sand bed under intermittent mist nozzles - the frequency of misting varied with the amount of light/heat, but might be every 5 to 15 minutes during sunny days, every 20-60 minutes at night.

Even though the leaves were rather on the wet side, this did not usually cause big disease problems. Having frequent 15-30 second showers to wash the spores off the leaves is considered to prevent many diseases. 

It is possible to rig a misting bed for $100 or so, assuming that you already have a pressurized water supply (household water supply or irrigation pump and tank). There are electronic timers for irrigation that can be programmed to open up at the necessary frequency. Add a bit of pipe and misting sprinkler heads ... easy to set up a small (say 5' x 10')  propagation bed and get thousands of new plants from that each year.

I do a lot of perennial herb propagation from softwood cuttings. Depending on the variety I get 80 - 100% success. Here's my system, fully high tech, but I do this for a living:

Bottom heat to keep potting mix at 75 degrees F. I keep the air temperature BELOW the soil temperature.

Potting mix is and organic peat and vermiculite mix. It is not sterilized.

128-cell plug trays. These are washed and reused for years.

Electronic Leaf. This is a 3" x 5" wire mesh artificial leaf within the misting zone. It triggers a pump relay when the leaf is dry. When the misters have deposited enough moisture, the leaf gets heavy and drops down, turning off the pump. Then the moisture off the leaf evaporates and the process begins again. This is superior to any timer-based system, because it runs less on wet days, more on dry days.

Micro irrigation sprinklers used as misters. True misters require higher water pressure than my pump creates, but the micro irrigation ones do fine.

Tip cuttings of 1 - 2" long. Leaves are not stripped below the level of the potting mix. The flats are placed with their sides touching to get the maximum plant material in the minimum amount of space. Light is bright but filtered sunlight, coming into the greenhouse and passing through a single old bedsheet before getting to the plants.

Depending on the variety, it's 2 - 5 weeks to transplant.

I use the same system for seed germination.

In an area that is 8' x 12' I easily can produce about 7000 plants a month from cuttings.

I use nothing more than heat, water, light, and potting mix. No chemicals, hormones, teas, willow bark, or anything.

Principles to grasp:

[li]The cuttings should not wilt. If they are wilting with no roots on them, they will not have the ability to put on roots. [/li]
[li]The soil temp should be above air temperature for rooting. You want the activity in the plant to be in the soil, not above the soil.[/li]
[li]If you have access to lots of plant material and room to root it, you don't need the percentage success as high as a professional grower needs. If you get 10% success, just make 10 times the number of cuttings and you still get all the plants you need.[/li]

When I started out, I wasn't getting anywhere near the success rate I now have. Don't get discouraged, learn from your successes and your failures, and you can become a very talented propagator over time. It was maybe a five year process for me.

I really like ground layering for propagation.  I've had good success with Ribes and am trying quite a few others presently.

the biggest advantage I see is that I don't risk losing all my cuttings if conditions aren't just right.  I just put a rock on a branch and forget about it.  maybe toss some mulch over it if I want to increase my odds slightly.  the new plant remains part of the old plant until it can survive on it's own, so it's no problem if rooting doesn't occur quickly.

this style of layering only works for plants with appropriate growth habits, though.  for others, air layering is frequently an option.  to date, the only plant I've air layered was a rubber tree in a greenhouse, but the technique is pretty simple and has some of the same advantages of the rock-on-branch method.  basically: scrape some bark off a branch and wrap something that will stay moist around it, like sphagnum.  wrap that with something that will keep the moisture in, like plastic wrap.  when it roots sufficiently, cut the branch off and plant it.

for propagating root stock, I like stooling.  grow a root stock out for a year, then prune it to the ground while it's dormant.  as it starts to grow out, pile sawdust or something similar on it, leaving a few inches of each shoot uncovered.  keep the sawdust moist, and at the end of the next dormant season each shoot should have rooted into the sawdust.  remove the sawdust and cut off the shoots close to the ground.  voila: new root stocks.  do the same thing again with the same stool if more root stock is needed.  I've mostly done this with Antanovka standard apple root stock, which has worked pretty well.

the method NM Grower outlined makes a lot of sense for somebody in that position, but I really like the simpler, easier, lower-risk options.  they're probably slower, too, but that also suits me.

I did my thesis on hardwood cuttings for restoration... it is online and has a pretty decent literature review on adventitious root formation for that application...  some important concepts... understanding what is limiting root formation in a particular species (hormone, age or otherwise)... knowing where your adventitous tissue is (position on stem, age of wood).  As you get toward more difficult to stimulate species... you get into softwood and misting... but I figure... start with hardwood and go from there.

growth response of three native shrubs

I put a list of species I have grown this way in garden beds along with my flip advice in a blog entry.

It seems that adventitious root formation is often a family trait...

I would like to learn about rootstock selection and bud grafting.

NMG:  Thanks for the detailed explanation.  I printed it out.  Hope that's not against the rules.
Mike: We have sea buckthorn that just finished up its second year.  Zone 5 here in NY and towards the end of the summer shoots started popping up all around the 3 that we planted.  There had to be about 15 plants which we will try to move in the spring.  It is invasive, but that's what we like.

Thanks again!

Ed

lets see right now im propagating either by seed or cutting or root cutting or division....

grapes (5 varieties )
fig ( 3 varieties )
orange ( extra hardy plant survived 21 degrees and snow and looks perfect)
nanking cherry
gooseberry
asparagus
blueberries
goumi
autumn olive
strawberries
comfrey
gotu kola
lavender
Jerusalem artichoke
blue elderberry
sierra red currants
mulberry
peach(grafted onto seed rootstock i grew)
cherry
thornless blackberry
thornless loganberry
thornless raspberry
thornless boysenberry
and the list goes on...and all through the year the list changes. things come and go. all kinds of herbs, veggies and other things get started too

propagation is fun, and the only way i see for anyone doing permaculture to go. buy it once, multiply it yourself by as much as you need.

Ground layering of chokecherries, caragana, currants and gooseberries.
Tip cuttings of blueberries on flow bed of greenhouse.

MikeH wrote:
Exactly how are you layering each? 

malus & pyrus- ive got two apples, one pear layered, about 24 starts in all, using basic ground layering- low limb weighted to the ground with abraision on stem/leaf nodes which are covered - im  my case, @ 18" of 1/2" d branch pinned to abre ground covered with leaf mulch 12" deep and weighted with a small log. the leafy branh tops stick out about 24" on the other side.

The  vaccinium (two blueberry varieties, and red huckleberry) , and ribes (2 species of gooseberry and the local red flowering currant) are a mish mash of propagation fixes...broken gooseberry twigs from a dog attack (half a dozen pulled through after the delimbing) were dipped in hormone and directly potted and now are transplanted, red currant is layering and the blueberries are layer as above with malus/pyrus. the mulches are different on each- the red hucks get a doug fir decayed log mulch, the blueberries get a leaf litter and sawdust/horsemanure mulch, the ribes a similar mulch with more leaves.

I gues i could also claim to be propagating 2 varieties of  grapes asIm letting it spread from its arbopr and pulling the rootstiocks for relocation, and the same for any number of other plants on the land- mostly i'm just letting them alone until the escape and then redistributing the escapees.

I also collect seed- nettle ( I have varieties that grow in well drained hilltops as well as shady bogs), wild rosa sp., crabapple, ahwthorne, angellica, miners lettuce, sorrel, brassicas wild and crossed, curcurbids, chenopodium, blue elderberry- you know, stuff from the freal padocks and gardens I mismanage. Im headed for seedballs. Im too lazy to try greenhouse propagation. Ill use judicious abandon.

Despite it being the worst year in the 6 ive been up here for gardening, I collected far more seed this year than previous years and way more wild annual herbs. Im going to dash these heartily on a reclaimation of a hillside that is eroding due to heavy machinery abuse (absentte landlord neighbor) and run my chickens on it next year. and get a passle of salad myself.

@soil: sweet.

@tel: I need to show you theold orchard up here. @ 30 trees 100+ years old, total feral heirlooms. . also have permission to get on Ft lewis and pull scions from 3 old orchards up there-  old varieties- I ate til my tummy hurt last fall.

Paul Cereghino wrote:
I did my thesis on hardwood cuttings for restoration...

Hey Paul (or anyone else,)

Have you tried and/or had any success with quercus as a hardwood cutting? I dutifully harvest native acorns here each fall and the weevils inside seem to have eaten enough that they don't germinate.

And yes, Ed, happy to have you print out anything you find useful!

Deston Lee wrote:
@tel: I need to show you theold orchard up here. @ 30 trees 100+ years old, total feral heirlooms. . also have permission to get on Ft lewis and pull scions from 3 old orchards up there-  old varieties- I ate til my tummy hurt last fall.

sounds like a couple of good field trips.  I'm in.

I know everything's up in the air for you right now, but do you want I should stool you some standard root stocks for those apples?  or are you going the seedling route for roots?  or rooting the scions?

by the way, Kanna noticed some apples on the seedling tree in the deep shade close to Mt. St. Love Shed.  they were frozen when we ate them, and delicious.

im not abandoing my place. those things will do well while I travel. I wont ever leave it for gone, just hoping to turn it into the lesser of two or three camps. I'd miss dane, and hes sticking around - maybe not enough to thanke care of teh chooks, but who knows, he might step up if the industry here pans out. we have been bucking firewood and collecting mushroom spawn from the alder and doing a few other foresty things.

speacking of propagation, I guess I just propagated an acre of thimble and salmon berry. with all the light thats coming in through my latest cut, and the crashy crunchy of treefall, the birds will be darting the halls, dropping little seed filled poos and BooM! another acre of thimbleberry salmon berry superness. 

and I did collect about a cups of thimbleberry seeds too. that was a days worth of pulp pushing

@ NMGrower - Never tried cuttings of Quercus (Oak) -- only one species locally and always propagated from acorns.

I do some rough backyard propagation, without misting and technical equipment.
Lots of my herb seedlings were eaten by slugs.
I know about the willow thing, but I don't know how much willow to how much water. And can any willow be used and the small twigs too?
A recipe from a neighbour says that you dip your cuttings in honey. I do that occasionally.
In my experience the potting mix makes a lot of difference. And I take most of the leaves.

Edible Cities:  We tried everything for slugs but nothing really worked.  Johnny's had a "new" product this year called Sluggo (mollusk bait and iron phosphate) and it worked quite well.  Maybe worth a try.  Certified organic and its not too expensive.

Ed

Deston Lee wrote:
malus & pyrus- ive got two apples, one pear layered, about 24 starts in all, using basic ground layering- low limb weighted to the ground with abraision on stem/leaf nodes which are covered - im  my case, @ 18" of 1/2" d branch pinned to abre ground covered with leaf mulch 12" deep and weighted with a small log. the leafy branh tops stick out about 24" on the other side.

Have you actually had success with these or are they in progress, ie, not yet rooted?

The  vaccinium (two blueberry varieties, and red huckleberry) , and ribes (2 species of gooseberry and the local red flowering currant) are a mish mash of propagation fixes...broken gooseberry twigs from a dog attack (half a dozen pulled through after the delimbing) were dipped in hormone and directly potted and now are transplanted, red currant is layering and the blueberries are layer as above with malus/pyrus. the mulches are different on each- the red hucks get a doug fir decayed log mulch, the blueberries get a leaf litter and sawdust/horsemanure mulch, the ribes a similar mulch with more leaves.

Why are the mulches different on each?

Two questions for those that have done alot starting from seed.  Is there a book or a site that is recommended for this process?  Primarily we are looking for information on stratiphying, scarifying, that kind of thing.  It's taking forever searching each seed on the internet, and alot of times we are getting conflicting info.
Second question is that I read that if you soak the seeds that need soaking in OJ that you will have better results than just plain water.  This was for passion flower.  Is this true for other seeds as well?
We purchased about 65 medicinal seed packets from Prairie Moon and Richters.  PM has a great reference section for seed starting.  Richters not so much.  Richters is awesome to deal with for plants, and plug trays though.
Any help is appreciated.

Ed

Ed wrote:
Two questions for those that have done alot starting from seed.  Is there a book or a site that is recommended for this process? 
Ed

or

http://www.green-seeds.com/pdf/seed_starters.pdf

Thanks Mike, that's a really good start.

most people might think im crazy( except on this forum) but i just planted a huge area full of dandelion seed. cant wait until spring!

In the winter when I'm thinking about plants but there's not much to do I like to just try taking hardwood cuttings from just about anything.  I found this neat little list of some PNW native hardwoods and how they do if just cut and struck into the ground: http://www.ser.org/sernw/pdf/NRCS_TN30_native_rooting_ability.pdf ; Elderberries are among my favorite to just cut and stick in the ground

This fall I planted some seeds that need stratifying in flats outside including Autumn Olive, Siberian Pea Tree, Black Locust, Rubus geoides (Chilean dwarf kind of Rubus), Saskatoon Serviceberry, Seaberry, and some Pomegranate.  I've actually gotten some seaberry sprouts by planting some whole fruits in a container without any stratification at all too, so they don't NEED stratification but I'm sure it helps.

I was thinking about starting another flat of those same species (I have more seeds left) right now and seeing what the difference is come spring time.

Yea! I developed that reading pile for SERNW... nice when something gets used. :

@Ed (from other thread)...

"Are you saying that the only time that your method of propogation will work is late fall or early winter?"

livestaking is as old as the hills (there are threads on living fences on this site as well).

By taking cuttings when dormant you give the stem time to form roots while water loss is relatively low.  Thats why all the fuss over moisture and mist if you have to take cuttings that are actively growing.  It is not an absolute requirement to livestake with dormant wood.  I have worked with folks that have taken willow branche in summer with success if the ground is moist enough (and better yet if you soak them underwater for a week before hand).  I have taken summer stems, stripped the leaves and stuck them in wet ground wiht success. A stem, by nature wil grow roots better if it is young tender and growing fast... it just looses water like mad and frequently dies before roots can form.  But some species will ONLY grow roots on young actively growing stems, making softwood cuttings necessary.  If you are going for minimum labor, sticking dormant hardwood cutting where you ultimately want them to grow is THE LOWEST cost propagation method I know (other than stripping seeds and flinging them) -- but it only works with certain species.  (Dale Darris who did the article mentioned above and others posted at the site is one of the few who has done research...)  Since I spread my work around I ahve gotten lots of folks to use snowberry and twinberry cuttings for reveg.  More should use hardhack... only a Conservation District down in the Columbia ever documented their work.  The limitation is in people willing to experiment in a cash-for-service economy.

MikeH wrote:
Have you actually had success with these or are they in progress, ie, not yet rooted?

Why are the mulches different on each?

Ground layering is a common practice. this is the second year Ive done it, last years layerings did well. Im doing many more this year, and will go back to it when I get to Abundance from my current travels.

the different mulches are made to roughly mimic the desired ph balance and nutrient compostion of the plant in question. red hUckkleberry is picky, growing almost exclusively on doug fir and hemlock deadwood in mid to late decay. Blueberries grow in bogs and like acid, almost peaty soil.

so I am angling the mulches to those compositions. thats about as far as my think goes with it... its worked so far, an mom, with 40 years in nurseries, said it should be ok...if mom says its ok..

Deston Lee wrote:
Ground layering is a common practice. this is the second year Ive done it, last years layerings did well. Im doing many more this year, and will go back to it when I get to Abundance from my current travels.

Yep.  I just wanted be certain that I was reading first hand experience.

the different mulches are made to roughly mimic the desired ph balance and nutrient compostion of the plant in question. red hUckkleberry is picky, growing almost exclusively on doug fir and hemlock deadwood in mid to late decay. Blueberries grow in bogs and like acid, almost peaty soil.

so I am angling the mulches to those compositions. thats about as far as my think goes with it... its worked so far, an mom, with 40 years in nurseries, said it should be ok...if mom says its ok..

Oops.  Shoulda known that.  Thank you. We should all listen to our moms (and eat our vegetables). 

Thanks Paul!

Ed

I've used willow scrapings to root out many things, especially soft woody plants. I gather the scrapings, soak them in water for 3 days which allows a scum to develop on top of the water. I take a 5 gal bucket of sand, mix in the willow scrapings, then add the plants I want to propagate and place them deep enough in the sand (past a forked cut). I pour the scummed water over the top of the sand. Usually at least half the plants will root if not all of them.
Rooting spice bush at the moment.

This fall I made my first attempt to root cuttings from a Goumi bush. How long should I wait before I declare a 'learning experience' and try something else?

I would suggest olive trees  and dry the fruit ...

Dried Olives ready to eat

Here is our small greenhouse being used as a solar dryer with fan for olives

http://tinyurl.com/26bxwny

Wesley wrote:
This fall I made my first attempt to root cuttings from a Goumi bush. How long should I wait before I declare a 'learning experience' and try something else?

Plants for a future covers it succinctly:

http://www.pfaf.org/user/Plant.aspx?LatinName=Elaeagnus%20multiflora

"Propagation                                          
Seed - best sown as soon as it is ripe in a cold frame[78]. It should germinate in late winter or early spring, though it may take 18 months[K]. Stored seed can be very slow to germinate, often taking more than 18 months. A warm stratification for 4 weeks followed by 12 weeks cold stratification can help[98]. The seed usually (eventually) germinates quite well[78]. Prick out the seedlings into individual pot as soon as they are large enough to handle and plant out when they are at least 15cm tall. Cuttings of half-ripe wood, 7 - 10cm with a heel, July/August in a frame. Good percentage[78]. Cuttings of mature wood of the current year's growth, 10 - 12cm with a heel, November in a frame. Leave for 12 months. Fair to good percentage[78]. Layering in September/October. Takes 12 months[78]."

No cold strat. Started from seed under lights with bottom heat in April 2010.  Picture is September 2010.  Success rate was 1 in 8.



This is a cutting as of Dec 10, 2010.  16 cuttings were started June 16, 2010.  None of the cuttings had a heal. Success rate was 1 in 16.

Good thing I didn't read pfaf.  I might have gotten discouraged.  Having said that I just ordered [78]Sheat. W. G. Propagation of Trees, Shrubs and Conifers from alibris for C$12.73 plus shipping.

Low tech cuttings in the fall placed in soil that is moist year round and has dappled shade-elderberry,honeyberry,and HB cranberry are the easiest for me.Most everything else from seed in five gallon buckets with holes drilled in the bottom.I use big pots because I dont have running water so only have to water them a few times in the summer.Bottom 95% is free forest humus.Top 5% is potting soil. to save on costs.Autumn olive,gumi,cornus mas,apple,most nuts have been easy this way .Hawthorns and things that take 2yrs to germ are the hardest because I dont weed out the pots enough.

This has been very inspiring.

@Mike H: Thanks for the info on Sheat's book.  We were able to get it at the library.
@Soil: Is there a special technique for the blueberries that you use?  I've read on another site that they were a bit fickle.  It's one plant that we want to do alot more with.
@NMG or anyone: The biggest variance in equipment that we see is in the heat mats.  Pricing is all over the board, from our Mennonite supplier to some on Greenhouse MegaStore.  Is this one of those products where you should buy the best that is available?

Thanks

Ed

I don't have any experience with the lower grade heat mats. I do like the rubber style commercial grade propagating mat like you see at the greenhouse megastore. I've never bought anything from that website, just going by the product picture. I have one of those that I got used a decade ago and it's still working great. Very even heat and it doesn't short out or shock you. You need to use a thermostat controller with it.

One place you can save money is the thermostat controller. Here's what we do. We determine how many heat mats we want to run and add up all the watts the mats will consume. Then we look for a thermostat that is rated just above that many watts. We don't worry about if the thermostat is for a certain number of mats, because all we need is one outlet on it. To run multiple mats, we just plug all the mats into a power strip, and then plug the power strip into the thermostat.  There is a risk of an electrical fire if you do the math wrong, so be careful!

So even if it costs you $250 for a pro setup to germinate/root 5 flats at a time, over ten years it will cost you only $25 a year plus utilities. If it saves you from buying starts or larger plants, then it sure seems worth it to go with the most durable and safest.

Thanks NMG:

That's what I figured the response would be.  It took a while to make the switch from doing things in a small way.  Equipment wears out in a hurry.  We now buy pro-grade stuff all the time, and Honda engines when they are available.
We want to do a whole lot more with blue honeysuckle in the coming years.  It grows well here, and fruits early.  Found a wholesale place in Canada where we could get them for 7.50 a piece but the minimum order was 500.00  Doesn't take long for the high cost of the mats to disappear when you can do it yourself.  We will get things cranked up after the first of the year.  Already have a couple different type of sage started, and some rosemary.  Currently cold stratiphying wild quinine, angelica, bloodroot, jack in the pulpit, passion flower and jujube.  Directed seeded some wild liquorice.
We have another 50 or so seeds that we will start after the 1st of the year.  Some of them are Mucuna, White Yarrow, Wolfberry, Yomogi, Pennyroyal, Pyrethium, Ma Huang, Lespedeza.........  Lot of fingercrossing.

Thanks Again, and we'll let you know how it goes.

Ed

Ed wrote:

We want to do a whole lot more with blue honeysuckle in the coming years.  It grows well here, and fruits early.  Found a wholesale place in Canada where we could get them for 7.50 a piece but the minimum order was 500.00 

Ed

There's a US seller of the Canadian blue honeysuckle.

It's also very easy to propagate from softwood cuttings.

Thanks Mike:  Prices seem to be coming down a bit.  We have always had great luck with Burntridge, and Raintree.  Someone told me that Raintree has a wholesale arm, something like Northwoods.

Will definately pick up a couple more different varieties.

Ed