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I've been a lucky duck but it appears that's all about to change

 
Posts: 1913
Location: Zone 5 Wyoming
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We've been in our house 10 years now. We've been blessed. No one around us does overly much and the wheat fields surrounding are all 100% organic. I've had 0 neighbor issues. The only irritant being the active oil drilling around these parts screwing with things.

Lo and Behold we have new neighbors. They've been asking me questions about the land. I'm happy to answer. What worries me is the type of questions. Like what poisons to use. When should they burn the fields. etc. I warned them that burning the fields would burn down their house. They aren't the first to have that bright idea. Our wind is fire prohibitive. I also discouraged the use of poison and the like. I'm just....well what do the rest of you do? I want to guide them into how to naturally reestablish their pasture. I get their problem. Their property is as over grazed as ours was. I pointed them to various seeds we've used and the like. i'm just kind of terrified they're going to go out and spray all 40 of their acres and then my 10 years of work will be gone, as they are to the west of us and the wind traditionally blows east.
 
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Maybe give them a book as a housewarming gift?
 
master pollinator
Posts: 11274
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I feel for you.  We got new neighbors upstream - a small development involving a lot of clearing.  The last moderate rain brought down loads of new run-off from that drainage, so we have an even bigger flooding problem to deal with than we had before.

Neighbors.  I wish they could be permaculturists!
 
pollinator
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Location: Australia, Canberra
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Show them the organic examples around.

Show them what you do. Take them to a tour in your land and explain them the relationships between soil microorganisms, grass growing on top and the animals grazing etc.

Tell them they can get organic certification down the line.

Draw them a roadmap based on what they wanted to do, according to permaculture principles.

Introduce them to the forum here.

Buy them a gift book Building a Better World in Your Backyard :-)
 
pollinator
Posts: 164
Location: Gulf Islands, Canada
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Does your neighbor already know that they're legally liable for any pesticide drift/fire drift and that they'd be the only ones in the neighborhood using pesticides and fire to manage their land? From their perspective this seems like a good way to go broke and make a lot of enemies out of one's neighbors. If everyone else around is organic, I can't imagine you're the only one who would be upset by this.
 
elle sagenev
Posts: 1913
Location: Zone 5 Wyoming
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Gurkan Yeniceri wrote:Show them the organic examples around.

Show them what you do. Take them to a tour in your land and explain them the relationships between soil microorganisms, grass growing on top and the animals grazing etc.

Tell them they can get organic certification down the line.

Draw them a roadmap based on what they wanted to do, according to permaculture principles.

Introduce them to the forum here.

Buy them a gift book Building a Better World in Your Backyard :-)



Seems to me they mostly want to get horse pasture going so getting organic certification doesn't seem to be an interest. I've been working on that myself so I was trying to point her to plant seeds that do well for us.
 
elle sagenev
Posts: 1913
Location: Zone 5 Wyoming
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Meg Mitchell wrote:Does your neighbor already know that they're legally liable for any pesticide drift/fire drift and that they'd be the only ones in the neighborhood using pesticides and fire to manage their land? From their perspective this seems like a good way to go broke and make a lot of enemies out of one's neighbors. If everyone else around is organic, I can't imagine you're the only one who would be upset by this.



That's great and all but if my sainfoin field is dead that won't help me at all! I'll keep directing them away from the poison use but I don't know how much direction these people will be willing to take from me.
 
pollinator
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elle sagenev wrote:

Meg Mitchell wrote:Does your neighbor already know that they're legally liable for any pesticide drift/fire drift and that they'd be the only ones in the neighborhood using pesticides and fire to manage their land? From their perspective this seems like a good way to go broke and make a lot of enemies out of one's neighbors. If everyone else around is organic, I can't imagine you're the only one who would be upset by this.



That's great and all but if my sainfoin field is dead that won't help me at all! I'll keep directing them away from the poison use but I don't know how much direction these people will be willing to take from me.




Is there an expensive legal horror story about pesticide drift liability that they might find instructive? Maybe along with some comments on how much you will be saving on expensive organic feed due to your field, to help establish that there is a steep price to pay if it were fucked with?

It won't help right away, but a sacrificial hedgerow/windbreak might offer some protection down the line...

 
pollinator
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Are you going for organic certification? If so, could you do anything to summarise all your efforts and costs for a potential legal battle?

As mentioned above, they are liable for pesticide drift and other infringements of your personal rights, and if they're harming your work, your earning potential, it's essentially like stealing someone's trade goods, or vandalising them in some way that makes them unsuitable for their intended use. There are whole law libraries dealing with issues of that nature.

So if you have any documentational milestones that you have put off until now, I suggest you get them done and get your unlucky ducks in a row. Unless you can infect your new neighbours with some permacultural fervour, it looks like you might have a fight coming.

-CK

 
gardener
Posts: 6152
Location: Vilonia, Arkansas - Zone 7B/8A stoney, sandy loam soil pH 6.5
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Elle, it sounds to me like the time is right for a BBQ get together evening.
New Neighbors are more receptive to ideas that are discussed over food and wine (or other beverages) in a "get to know you" setting.
Don't be afraid (during this meet and greet) to put forth your plans for your property, let them ask their questions (unless they are just jerks, they will have some once you start talking about restoring land through mimicking nature's methods).

Do not act threatening (mentioning law suits is a good way to make sure you will have to take that direction), just concerned and do bring up how much money those poisons cost and how little real effect they have since that will kill the very soil they are wanting to build.
Only as a last resort, should you be forced to bring up the current human, plant and animal problems with Glyphosate (roundup) and that Monsanto is currently involved in lots of law suits over the cancers it is causing those who have used it, the animal baby issues and the persistence in the soil affecting anything planted in previously sprayed soils that aren't "roundup ready varieties".
At that point you can even bring up Dicambia since it has been banned by many countries and states here in the US, other states are putting it through testing. This one has a huge "drift" factor and we don't currently know how carcinogenic it is (it took 20 years to find out that Glyphosate was a carcinogen).
You could even bring up The federal banning of many of the older herbicides and pesticides because they were killing off the Bald Eagle population (DDT) and the California Condor (DDT)
Give them this link Banned pesticides list USA
Bring up that pesticides and herbicides are a huge part of the problem our pollinators are facing today and they are mostly why bees are disappearing and dying.

Refer them to this site and especially to my soil series as good reading material to help them in their endeavor of pasture remediation.

Redhawk
 
master pollinator
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Like Bryant, I would invite them over frequently for a social get together, be it a BBQ, coffee & dessert after dinner, or whatever. And just chat. In my neck of the woods, it's called "talk story". Many difficulties can be remedied simply through two way communication. I wouldn't say anything that would cause them to stiffen and build a mental wall between you two. Such walls are difficult the break down once built. And remember, most of us on permies.com were totally non-permies before we started reading this site. The safe, non-confrontational nature of this site allowed us to learn and often change. I know that I myself came to adopt several permaculture methods, something I wouldn't have done if they had been thrown in my face or I had been threatened. I learned and slowly changed.
 
Chris Kott
pollinator
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I agree with kola Redhawk and Su Ba. Talking is best, and best done over a shared meal.

I was simply suggesting that preparations for the worst-case be made before it's too late to do so, not to discard the idea of of trying to work it out in a neighbourly fashion.

I suggest a devious plan. Invite them for a BBQ, then make sure all the food is laced with permaculture. Infect their brains. Maybe if you or someone else has an extra e-book of the Better World Book, they could be properly indoctrinated.

-CK
 
elle sagenev
Posts: 1913
Location: Zone 5 Wyoming
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Bryant RedHawk wrote:Elle, it sounds to me like the time is right for a BBQ get together evening.
New Neighbors are more receptive to ideas that are discussed over food and wine (or other beverages) in a "get to know you" setting.
Don't be afraid (during this meet and greet) to put forth your plans for your property, let them ask their questions (unless they are just jerks, they will have some once you start talking about restoring land through mimicking nature's methods).

Do not act threatening (mentioning law suits is a good way to make sure you will have to take that direction), just concerned and do bring up how much money those poisons cost and how little real effect they have since that will kill the very soil they are wanting to build.
Only as a last resort, should you be forced to bring up the current human, plant and animal problems with Glyphosate (roundup) and that Monsanto is currently involved in lots of law suits over the cancers it is causing those who have used it, the animal baby issues and the persistence in the soil affecting anything planted in previously sprayed soils that aren't "roundup ready varieties".
At that point you can even bring up Dicambia since it has been banned by many countries and states here in the US, other states are putting it through testing. This one has a huge "drift" factor and we don't currently know how carcinogenic it is (it took 20 years to find out that Glyphosate was a carcinogen).
You could even bring up The federal banning of many of the older herbicides and pesticides because they were killing off the Bald Eagle population (DDT) and the California Condor (DDT)
Give them this link Banned pesticides list USA
Bring up that pesticides and herbicides are a huge part of the problem our pollinators are facing today and they are mostly why bees are disappearing and dying.

Refer them to this site and especially to my soil series as good reading material to help them in their endeavor of pasture remediation.

Redhawk



We did actually invite them over for dinner. They declined. We will do it again. I'm just that type of person anyway.

My fear is that they are moving from their current state to ours because of "those people". I'm very afraid that much talk about nature, organics, permaculture, etc. will quickly get me labeled as one of "those people".
 
elle sagenev
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I don't think it's hopeless though. At the very least we know a very lovely commercial farmer who thinks I'm full of crap but has a certified organic field. Though for him it's about money more than any real passion for organics. I'm sure he'd be happy to talk to them and as he's older hopefully they'll listen to him.

I'll show them my thriving pastureland that I free range my pigs on. Direct them towards plants that grow well, etc. Hopefully they'll see the sense of it and see that it does actually work, we do have proof of that on our property. I think I'm just going to have to keep the hippy dippy (because in my area that is most definitely what I am labeled) out of it.

I guess it's a good sign that they are asking questions and luckily they're asking them of me. Hopefully I can direct them the right way.
 
pollinator
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Have a neighbor meet and greet.  Ask each of the current neighbors to describe what they have done and are doing on their property.
Then these new neighbors can understand that they are in a clean and healthy environment.  Ask them to participate and contribute.
If it is one person they are troublemaker, if it is two people, then it is a conspiracy but if there is 3 or 4 then it is a movement.  
 
Tyler Ludens
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elle sagenev wrote:
My fear is that they are moving from their current state to ours because of "those people". I'm very afraid that much talk about nature, organics, permaculture, etc. will quickly get me labeled as one of "those people".



Maybe they will learn that "those people" are everywhere and they maybe should join them so they don't have to keep running away....

 
elle sagenev
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Tyler Ludens wrote:

elle sagenev wrote:
My fear is that they are moving from their current state to ours because of "those people". I'm very afraid that much talk about nature, organics, permaculture, etc. will quickly get me labeled as one of "those people".



Maybe they will learn that "those people" are everywhere and they maybe should join them so they don't have to keep running away....



I'm not super normal for my area though. lol I came upon keylining to try to save our land, which is as bad as the neighbors, and it's grown into a permie passion!

When I say my neighbors do nothing I mean they just live on 40 acres and do NOTHING with it. No using it for much of anything. Horses here and there at the most. So they don't spray but only because they don't do anything.
 
Tyler Ludens
master pollinator
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elle sagenev wrote:I'm not super normal for my area though.



Neither am I.  I'm an ultra-lefty tree-hugger in a very conservative county.  But people live next to us "those people".  They can't escape "those people"!

I don't know that I'm having much of an influence on neighbors, but one never knows for sure.  
 
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