Dale Hodgins wrote:I think a lot of the facination with bigger wood has to do with trying to make beds that will last a long time without having to be rebuilt. This is something that doesn't concern me at all. I want my beds to break down. The quicker the better. There's an endless supply of wood waste available both on farm and off and as it breaks down it will make good soil. I'm charging for wood disposal so quick breakdown frees up space for further cash flow.
Beds can always be topped up. They don't have to be completely re-done just because some wood has rotted. If I determine that a bed has become wood poor, I can always load the finished soil onto a truck and dump it where needed or it could be clawed to the edges so that a new base could be dumped in. So far I have about 30 man hours into my 150+ cubic yard beds. Properly equiped the construction of hugel beds doesn't need to be a Hurculean struggle.
Back to Good Wood , Bad Wood --- For me there are definately good and bad woods for my purposes. A good wood for me to put into the soil must firstly be wood that I don't want to use for some higher purpose.--- Cedar logs have value for me for framing any outdoor structure since it is by far my most rot resistant wood. Douglas fir is the strongest and most valuable construction wood on my place. I would never toss a good fir log into a grow bed. Gary oak is something that fetches $10 per board foot for the best boards. The scraps make great firewood. So only bark and rotten stuff will go to the beds. ----- There are massive quantities of quick rotting maple, cottonwood and alder available. Much of it is low grade stuff with no market value. This stuff is not alleopathic, so for me it's good wood. Any useful cedar , fir, or oak trees are bad wood for my Hugelkulturs and cedar is bad period since I'm not willing to risk problems when I have such an abundant supply of rotty stuff.
Cedar Rotting --- I shingled a roof from a cedar that had been lying dead on the forest floor for more than a century. There was surface rot with bushes and ferns living there going 10 inches deep but no roots penetrated the heartwood. To me this made this tree good wood for cedar shakes and bad wood for gardening. Second growth cedar is not nearly so rot resistant.
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Mariah Wallener wrote:I read in the other Hugelkulture thread someone saying "don't use conifers". Well we're surrounded by them here, and it's a bit depressing to think I can't use all those Douglas Fir logs we have piled up and rotting. If they've been outside for two years do you think they'd be okay? What about the cedar? I think we have a few scraps in the log pile and at this point I doubt I could tell them apart from the fir. I would not use fresh cedar, but if it has been out in the elements for a year or two?
We do have Red Alder and Bigleaf Maple around but I don't think we have enough to make an entire bed. Doug Fir grows like a weed around here so it's in plentiful supply.
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Interesting postulation concerning old growth vs. new growth cedar. I don't believe that any of it holds true. Older trees develop the oils that protect the wood. Younger trees have a much greater proportion of sap wood. Trees that come up in a clearing grow quicker and with less oils than those that struggle slowly under a mature canopy. If my cedars were allowed to become 500 years old, the wood from them would develop the same rot resistance. There has been no great change in the mountain soil around my place. Although there are plenty of roads, most spots have never been driven on. The firs surrounding me are being managed on an 80 year rotation. Logging does disturb the soil, particularly on sorting grounds and by roads but not nearly as much as would happen during a single season under the plow. Then nature takes it's course for another quite long stretch without serious disturbance.Becky Mundt wrote:
Dale Hodgins wrote:I think a lot of the facination with bigger wood has to do with trying to make beds that will last a long time without having to be rebuilt. This is something that doesn't concern me at all. I want my beds to break down. The quicker the better. There's an endless supply of wood waste available both on farm and off and as it breaks down it will make good soil. I'm charging for wood disposal so quick breakdown frees up space for further cash flow.
Beds can always be topped up. They don't have to be completely re-done just because some wood has rotted. If I determine that a bed has become wood poor, I can always load the finished soil onto a truck and dump it where needed or it could be clawed to the edges so that a new base could be dumped in. So far I have about 30 man hours into my 150+ cubic yard beds. Properly equiped the construction of hugel beds doesn't need to be a Hurculean struggle.
Back to Good Wood , Bad Wood --- For me there are definately good and bad woods for my purposes. A good wood for me to put into the soil must firstly be wood that I don't want to use for some higher purpose.--- Cedar logs have value for me for framing any outdoor structure since it is by far my most rot resistant wood. Douglas fir is the strongest and most valuable construction wood on my place. I would never toss a good fir log into a grow bed. Gary oak is something that fetches $10 per board foot for the best boards. The scraps make great firewood. So only bark and rotten stuff will go to the beds. ----- There are massive quantities of quick rotting maple, cottonwood and alder available. Much of it is low grade stuff with no market value. This stuff is not alleopathic, so for me it's good wood. Any useful cedar , fir, or oak trees are bad wood for my Hugelkulturs and cedar is bad period since I'm not willing to risk problems when I have such an abundant supply of rotty stuff.
Cedar Rotting --- I shingled a roof from a cedar that had been lying dead on the forest floor for more than a century. There was surface rot with bushes and ferns living there going 10 inches deep but no roots penetrated the heartwood. To me this made this tree good wood for cedar shakes and bad wood for gardening. Second growth cedar is not nearly so rot resistant.
This is fascinating to me - it reminds me of the Weston Price studies of the health of isolated indigenous cultures in the early 20th century compared to those exposed to 'civilized foods' in the next generations - so the old growth cedar has much higher capacity to defend against 'new growth' than the new generation cedar. This ties right back to the power in the soil - the rich undisturbed naturally active soils before interference can sustain such power - the newer disturbed and altered by interference (chemicals, compaction and various other forms of action upon them) soils do not produce trees with such strong tendencies. This is also a mirror image of the idea of the gut flora of humans being like soils and the mirroring of the depletion of soils and the depletion of our gut flora, leading to candida albicans infections, IBS, and all manor of popular/prevalent disorders among human populations. it all maps together as one phenomenon.
Dale Hodgins wrote:Marjie, I'm not the number one expert on this stuff. I just know what rots and what doesn't. Pretty soon others will be telling us to get a room. Cherry can be quite valuable for other uses when it's good. It rots pretty well. If this one is one with a rotten core like many cherries are, I would use it. Laurel is fine. You have to be careful about burning or ingesting laurel. It contains cyanide. Crushed laurel can kill grass. Seems like the perfect thing to put in the hugel wherever grass clumps are spreading. The poisons break down and are harmless.
I plan to run some grass killing experiments with pureed laurel. It can take really heavy pruning. Laurel is very Hardy.
Dale Hodgins wrote:Marjie, I'm not the number one expert on this stuff. I just know what rots and what doesn't. Pretty soon others will be telling us to get a room. Cherry can be quite valuable for other uses when it's good. It rots pretty well. If this one is one with a rotten core like many cherries are, I would use it. Laurel is fine. You have to be careful about burning or ingesting laurel. It contains cyanide. Crushed laurel can kill grass. Seems like the perfect thing to put in the hugel wherever grass clumps are spreading. The poisons break down and are harmless.
I plan to run some grass killing experiments with pureed laurel. It can take really heavy pruning. Laurel is very Hardy.
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Tyler Ludens wrote:
Mariah Wallener wrote: I would not use fresh cedar, but if it has been out in the elements for a year or two?
I'm using juniper (what we call "cedar" here) aged a couple years; so far, no problems.
Dale Hodgins wrote:In the dozens of hugelkultur threads, crucial information about toxic woods that should not be used is often burried by the quantity of it all.
So let's restrict this thread to the discussion of woods that are likely to be problematic.
In coastal B. C. Our worst offender is cedar. It takes forever to rot and it prevents many other plants from sprouting. In the east black walnut and black locust are known to adversely affect other plants.
Please list the worst offenders in your region. If there is a comprehensive list somewhere, please direct us to it. Thank you, Dale
Dale Hodgins wrote:Today was a very productive day. I struck a deal to have hardwood stumps delivered to the farm in 30 cubic yard containers. They're clearing lots on wetter ground, close to the river. Normally, stumps must have all of the dirt shaken off, so that fewer rocks go through the tub grinder. I'm encouraging them to toss them in with lots of nice soil attached. Brambles are often cleaned up with a generous amount of soil. Quick and dirty saves machine time on their end and gives me better soil.
The price --- $120 per bin. They pay me $120 per bin for disposal. I think there's room for 50 bins in the next year. This will create a nice bed for a giant hugelkultur and some will become mushroom logs.
Eva
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