• Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
permaculture forums growies critters building homesteading energy monies kitchen purity ungarbage community wilderness fiber arts art permaculture artisans regional education experiences global resources the cider press projects digital market permies.com private forums all forums
this forum made possible by our volunteer staff, including ...
master stewards:
  • Nicole Alderman
  • r ranson
  • Anne Miller
  • paul wheaton
stewards:
  • Jocelyn Campbell
  • Mike Jay Haasl
  • Burra Maluca
garden masters:
  • James Freyr
  • Joylynn Hardesty
  • Steve Thorn
  • Greg Martin
gardeners:
  • Carla Burke
  • Dave Burton
  • Pearl Sutton

non-petrolium bar and chain oil

 
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
A quick search has led me to believe there is nothing on permies about this topic. I might be wrong about this.

I don't like chainsaws for many reasons. The short list includes the following.
1. They injure/kill people. Sometimes even when properly maintained.
2. I can't hear the tree as it starts to give way.
3. I have to hold my breath while using them.
4. Battery powered electric saws have toxic batteries.
5. Corded eclectic saws don't go where I need them, and are an entanglement hazard.
6. All of them leave patolium based bar and chain oil with questionable additives on the wood.

Number six is true of all chainsaws... or is it? If I thought something else might work, surly someone else has. A quick internet search showed the following products.
1. https://barandchainoil.org
2. http://www.getg.com/G-OIL/bio-based_bar_chain.php
3. https://www.nvearth.com/bar-chain#!

And this article too
https://www.fs.fed.us/eng/pubs/html/98511316/98511316.html

I am thinking that these are probably all made from GMO crops that are spayed with lots of toxic "ICK", manufactured with more toxins, and subsidized with stolen money(taxes, taken with threat off imprisonment and perhaps[ps death if you resist arrest). Of corse I am sure they all come in a petroleum bottle. It seems that a "purified" petroleum product might presently have the least harmful impact in the grand scheme of things, whereas a GMO product would pollute your immediate environment a bit less.

This gives me hope for a cleaner, less toxic future for my grandchildren. I will probably try to plant lots of oil producing plants for them to utilize. Wallnut oil comes to mind as a potential base for bar and chain oil. It won't hold up to heat, but it is quickly dispersed anyway. Perhaps some kind of sap could be mixed in at the correct ratio to create the necessary viscosity and "tackiness". I think the somewhat distant future of eco-freindly chainsaws is bright. But where are we today? At what point do chainsaws become an appropriate technology for us today. Perhaps by using them to build a timber frame house that will last 400 years? I ,for one, have no qualms about using a chainsaw to ventilate a burning building. Especially since most of them are full of petroleum products of all toxic, off-gassing, hot burning kinds!

What is your stance?
What are some other future possibilities?

 
gardener
Posts: 2694
Location: Central Texas zone 8a
495
cattle chicken bee sheep
  • Likes 3
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
The oil has to travel one side of the bar, whip around 180 degrees at the top of the bar, then travel to where the cutting edge is and where the oil is needed.

The flinging of oil at that top sprocket is why bar oil is made the way it is made. I can't think of the term, but it is like a taffy.  The oil stays connected to itself. This keeps all the oil from flinging off at that turn before it is needed for the cut.

Thats my understanding. Any oil will work, even olive oil, except for that flinging at the top sprocket.

Chainsaw mills can and do use vegetable oils because they can rig it to drop on the chain after the top sprocket. Precise metering exactly where needed. .
 
pollinator
Posts: 1086
Location: Victoria BC
127
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Pretty sure Dale has posted about using waste veg oil as bar oil on his Ego saw. Might find it with more detailed search, or he will probly spot this thread soonish..
 
garden master
Posts: 2748
Location: West Tennessee
824
cat purity trees books chicken food preservation cooking building homestead
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

wayne fajkus wrote:
The flinging of oil at that top sprocket is why bar oil is made the way it is made. I can't think of the term, but it is like a taffy.  The oil stays connected to itself. This keeps all the oil from flinging off at that turn before it is needed for the cut.



Yup, there is an additive in chainsaw oil that makes it "stringy" and help it hold onto the chain links. I use a commercially available vegetable based bar & chain oil in my saw.
 
Michael Holtman
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

James Freyr wrote:

wayne fajkus wrote:
I use a commercially available vegetable based bar & chain oil in my saw.



What do you use? What is your impression of it? Do you have an ingredients list?

 
James Freyr
garden master
Posts: 2748
Location: West Tennessee
824
cat purity trees books chicken food preservation cooking building homestead
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Hey Michael, I use Stihl's veggie bar oil https://www.stihlusa.com/products/oils--lubricants-and-fuels/oils-and-lubricants/biooil/

Aside from being more than double the cost of regular petroleum based bar oil, I like it. I can not tell any difference between this and traditional bar oil. It works well for me.
 
Michael Holtman
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Yes, it seems that bar and chain oil is everything that sewing machine oil is not, and vice versa. Which begs the question, "is there a good way to measure viscosity of various potential substitute oils for various applications?" I badly need to oil my almost 100 year old sewing machine and I'd rather not use petroleum. I have found no information on this. Surely  there was a time where only some early sewing machines had regular boilings with petroleum, right?
 
James Freyr
garden master
Posts: 2748
Location: West Tennessee
824
cat purity trees books chicken food preservation cooking building homestead
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I think the challenge with using natural oils is they can dry out with time and can get gummy. This may not hold true for all plant based or natural oils. Maybe some nut oils might work better and hold up longer than say avocado or olive oil. I think if maintenance is no object, then it might be possible to use any natural oil, then when it starts to dry out, clean and remove the old gumminess before applying fresh oil. This may be near impossible for some things that are just too tiny or impractical to dismantle like a gearbox for example. Maybe an alcohol soak or drench would dissolve old dry oil residue easily and not be a tedious task.
 
wayne fajkus
gardener
Posts: 2694
Location: Central Texas zone 8a
495
cattle chicken bee sheep
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Lubricants were around before petroleum. Some may not be perceived as viable today like whale oil.

One thing i latched onto is rendered lard. I made some from cow fat. It seems very viable. Almost a liquid at room temperature. As i researched it i found out that it was a preferred lubricant because it didnt wash off in a rain. This makes sense as the rain cools it and it starts to harden. But during use (friction) it goes to liquid.

I made a candle over a year ago. Basically poured it into a mason jar with a wick. A year later no foul smells coming from it. It is kept on a counter. No refrigeration.

I think this could be used in many applications. From a pto shaft on a tractor to a door hinge in the house.
 
Posts: 80
Location: Pee Gee, Bee Cee, Cee Aye En Aye Dee Aye
17
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Walnut oil probably isn't a good choice not only for it's viscosity but also it's a drying oil like linseed(flax) hemp and tung oil.

I wonder how the embodied energy lost on a prematurely worn chain from sub optimum oil compares to using the engineered lube.

I'm finding that by the time I don my chaps and hardhat, fuel and oil the saw I can have a 10" or smaller tree cut most of the way through with an axe, and a little one down and a good way started on the limbing. Probably with less sweat and definately less stress. Even when falling multiple trees with a chainsaw I'm now gonna stick to an axe for limbing. Most of my trees are willow, alder, poplar, cottonwood and fir.

I hate my chainsaws and hope I never have to use them enough to get comfortable with them!
 
Michael Holtman
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

James Freyr wrote:Maybe an alcohol soak or drench would dissolve old dry oil residue easily and not be a tedious task.



This even works for cosmoline. The problem is how immediately the corrosion sets in.
 
Michael Holtman
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Likes 2
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

wayne fajkus wrote:I made some from cow fat. It seems very viable. Almost a liquid at room temperature.


I realize you are in texas, but what qualifies as room temperature in your mind? We have lard(from hogs) that is mostly solid(ish) in the upper 70s. The only beef tallow I have ever stored for any length of time would not turn to liquid until it reached 80 something degrees F. I wonder if is depends on what part the fat comes from, or maybe even the rendering process. This is new to me, unless maybe I'm missing something?  
 
Michael Holtman
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Alley Bate wrote:
I'm finding that by the time I don my chaps and hardhat, fuel and oil the saw I can have a 10" or smaller tree cut most of the way through with an axe, and a little one down and a good way started on the limbing. Probably with less sweat and definately less stress. Even when falling multiple trees with a chainsaw I'm now gonna stick to an axe for limbing. Most of my trees are willow, alder, poplar, cottonwood and fir.



I share much of your sentiments here. I don't usually want or need a chainsaw. I have one(sort-of, It's a family/community tool, I am the primary care taker of it and other tools). I don't like to use it. I don't want to use it. A good cross cut saw will cut almost as fast if properly maintained. This is why I struggle to see it as appropriate technology. I will use one at a house fire, but i would just as quickly grab an ax for the same job. I am probably one of two or three on my department who would actually ventilate with an axe. Some of our officers would give up if the saw didn't start. It comes down to knowing your tool.
 
wayne fajkus
gardener
Posts: 2694
Location: Central Texas zone 8a
495
cattle chicken bee sheep
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Michael Holtman wrote:

wayne fajkus wrote:I made some from cow fat. It seems very viable. Almost a liquid at room temperature.


I realize you are in texas, but what qualifies as room temperature in your mind? We have lard(from hogs) that is mostly solid(ish) in the upper 70s. The only beef tallow I have ever stored for any length of time would not turn to liquid until it reached 80 something degrees F. I wonder if is depends on what part the fat comes from, or maybe even the rendering process. This is new to me, unless maybe I'm missing something?  



Almost a liquid is what i stated. Its not solid. Its not liquid. Kind of in between. Your finger would push through it with no effort, yet it won't readily pour out. This is in my house. Temp somewhere in mid to upper 70's. Its fat i cut off of a brisket.
 
Dillon Nichols
pollinator
Posts: 1086
Location: Victoria BC
127
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

Michael Holtman wrote:

Alley Bate wrote:
I'm finding that by the time I don my chaps and hardhat, fuel and oil the saw I can have a 10" or smaller tree cut most of the way through with an axe, and a little one down and a good way started on the limbing. Probably with less sweat and definately less stress. Even when falling multiple trees with a chainsaw I'm now gonna stick to an axe for limbing. Most of my trees are willow, alder, poplar, cottonwood and fir.



I share much of your sentiments here. I don't usually want or need a chainsaw. I have one(sort-of, It's a family/community tool, I am the primary care taker of it and other tools). I don't like to use it. I don't want to use it. A good cross cut saw will cut almost as fast if properly maintained. This is why I struggle to see it as appropriate technology. I will use one at a house fire, but i would just as quickly grab an ax for the same job. I am probably one of two or three on my department who would actually ventilate with an axe. Some of our officers would give up if the saw didn't start. It comes down to knowing your tool.



Geez. I must never have owned an even half-decent crosscut saw, then.

I have been needing to limb and section mostly fir and cedar, trees are dying of drought and I am trying to get them while still usable... I use an axe on the modest limbs and like it, but would really hate to deal with the bigger 6+" limbs and 24-30+" fir trunks by hand.

Still can't say I love the saws, though. Leaky, loud, dangerous as hell, and fussy about when they want to run...
 
Michael Holtman
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Well, Dillon, I'm not saying that there is no work involved. If you have good tools that are properly maintained, good technique, use the right tools for the job, and factor in the setup time, then yes. If these are in place, hand tools will be as fast in a number of cases. Also consider the time it takes to mix fuel, add fuel, add oil, tighten the chain, etc.

 
Posts: 170
12
  • Likes 1
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
chainsaws are a fact of life in our modern world, they are used to clear large areas of rainforest to make way for huge palm oil  operations
unfortunate fact of modern world. i would think a chemist could formulate some type of vegtable oil to keep bar and chain lubed.
my neighbor recently got a rechargeable chainsaw, its impressive, no fumes, no petrol, to run it no endless pull rope, and can be charged off solar charger. very helpful tool for many uses around the homestead. this is the future, i hope our childrens sake
 
Michael Holtman
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
Some how this was brought up in a conversation about sewing machine oil.

Phil Stevens wrote:Sebastian, do you know if your chainsaw oil (we call it two-stroke oil in many places) is a petroleum product or castor oil? Castor oil was the additive of choice when I was growing up and I still have nostalgia for that smell.



Michael Holtman wrote:
Are you saying that I can run a two stroke engine on homemade ethanol mixed with home pressed castor oil??? I use non-ethanol gasoline(petrol) now, but i could be converted if I figured out how to make my own fuel!



Travis Johnson wrote:Yes you can. Any oil is better than no oil. You just have to use more of it so that it does not score your pistons while operating.

A lot of people think you need 2 stroke oil to make 2 stroke gas for chainsaws and such. Nope. I have dumped in 10W-40 for years and my Stihl Chainsaw lived 22 years. When it died it was because I ran it over with my bulldozer.
And goodness, do not even get me started on bar and chain oil. I have not bought that in years. It costs $10 a gallon!! A Bar for my chainsaw costs $30. Since my bar wears out no matter what I use, then I am not going to get some magical life out of my bar using bar and chain oil, so I use the cheapest oil I can buy, typically hydraulic oil, but I have also used spent motor oil, old fry oil, etc. Since I get 150 cords of wood cut per $30 bar, I am WAY ahead money wise instead of spending money on bar and chain oil.

A guy told me professional loggers do that, "they buy bar and chain oil", but as I told him, then they are not very good with math, and probably have not done the math.

 
master pollinator
Posts: 4004
916
transportation cat duck trees rabbit books chicken woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
I use any oil I can get my hands on for my bar oil.

If I am forced to buy new oil because I have no other oil to use, I typically buy hydraulic oil because it is the cheapest per gallon, and is pretty light so it breaks down pretty good in nature. If a person was really inclined, and did not care about money spent, they could just buy vegetable oil and use that. I have used it for years and it works fine. It even smells good while logging.
 
Travis Johnson
master pollinator
Posts: 4004
916
transportation cat duck trees rabbit books chicken woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator

wayne fajkus wrote:The oil has to travel one side of the bar, whip around 180 degrees at the top of the bar, then travel to where the cutting edge is and where the oil is needed.

The flinging of oil at that top sprocket is why bar oil is made the way it is made. I can't think of the term, but it is like a taffy.  The oil stays connected to itself. This keeps all the oil from flinging off at that turn before it is needed for the cut.

Thats my understanding. Any oil will work, even olive oil, except for that flinging at the top sprocket.

Chainsaw mills can and do use vegetable oils because they can rig it to drop on the chain after the top sprocket. Precise metering exactly where needed. .




It is called "Tack", but it is not required. In all the years I have cut wood, I have only gone through one bar that had a seized up nose sprocket. I do not grease them either. What fouls a nose sprocket on a bar is putting the tip down into the dirt. I never do that because...well...dirt dulls a chainsaw chain. Grease is especially bad because if you grease your bar's nose sprocket, and get it into teh dirt, its going to adhere to the grease and play havoc on your chainsaw bar nose sprocket.

I do not sell chainsaw bars, or chainsaw bar oil, so I have nothing to gain from telling people how they can save money.

My bars wear out faster because I use any kind of oil I admit, BUT 150 cords of wood is a lot of wood. If I used expensive bar and chain oil, I might get 250 cords of wood out of a bar, but I would spend $100 in expensive bar and chain oil to get it. I could buy (3) bars for what I would have in oil.


Travis: Spend an extra $30 on an additional bar and save $70 in bar and chain oil

Them: Spend $100 in oil, and save $30 on a bar

 
Michael Holtman
pioneer
Posts: 123
Location: Tennessippi
33
purity forest garden gear foraging trees books cooking food preservation medical herbs woodworking ungarbage
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
If the bar wears out quicker, then I'd say there is something to say here about safety. It would be important to know what to look for in a well used bar. As a side note, I am aware of a couple of people who have chosen to use a pole chain saw for safety reasons. The only problem I have with that Is that they rarely have more than a 10" bar. I could just use hand tools in that case. Suppose one were to put an 18" bar on a pole saw and ran it on homemade fuel and oil. That would be better for imidiate safety, environmental heath, and overall sustainability. Granted, it may be a little unwieldy, but very capable.
 
Travis Johnson
master pollinator
Posts: 4004
916
transportation cat duck trees rabbit books chicken woodworking
  • Mark post as helpful
  • send pies
  • Quote
  • Report post to moderator
There is nothing unsafe about a worn out chainsaw bar: the chain either stays on or it doesn't. Typically a bar gets destroyed by it being "pinched", and while there are ways to remedy that, at some point a logger just has to realize that they are spending a mere $30.

What is $30 when to buy a cord of firewood it is $225 a cord? If a homesteader can cut over 100 cords of wood, then they are saving themselves from paying $22,500 in firewood costs.

My wood pays on average $70 a cord, and I cut 1 cord per hour on average (7-8 trees). That means in the first half-hour of using my new bar, I have cut enough wood to pay for itself. Since I average 10 cords per day, in the first two days I have paid for the entire chainsaw!

My point here is pretty simple. A chainsaw is such a money-making tool, whether commercially logging, or doing work around the homestead, that its costs are almost not even worth calculating. I do because I am a full time farmer and can deduct my expenses. But bars, chains...those are consumable items, but their longevity compared to their productivity is so lopsided. I am using a $14 chain, on a $30 bar, on a $750 chainsaw, and making $700 per DAY! Even my cjainsaw dealer said this chainsaw was "disposable". I buy it for $750, cut a few hundred cord of wood, trade it in a year later for $300, and buy another (unless I run it over with a skidder or bulldozer that is. I have done that wayyyyy too much).

Husqvarna.jpg
[Thumbnail for Husqvarna.jpg]
My Favorite Lumber Jill with my Disposable Chainsaw (562 husky)
 
What's gotten into you? Could it be this tiny ad?
Switching from electric heat to a rocket mass heater reduces your carbon footprint as much as parking 7 cars
http://woodheat.net
  • Post Reply Bookmark Topic Watch Topic
  • New Topic
Boost this thread!