Livestock Guardian and Hound Dog? Is it possible?

Hello, I live on 20 acres in Washington and am an avid hunter with a burgeoning homestead.

In particular, I am a very passionate bird hunter and hunt over a Brittany and soon a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon. That being said, while bird hunting this winter I came across rabbits and realized a couple of things 1. My Brittany has no idea what he's doing hunting rabbits 2. I love chasing, shooting and eating rabbits and I need a rabbit dog.

Now, I am bringing in some goats and sheep this summer to keep on 1 acre of pasture and am in need of livestock guardian dogs to ward off coyotes and cougars around here. My wife will not let me get a third hunting dog but I am allowed livestock guardian dogs... My question is, would it be possible to run a cur type dog or other breed as both a hound dog and a livestock guardian dog? Or does this dog breed really only do well in either the role of a hound dog OR a guardian dog? And if this isn't the case, is there a breed that can both hound rabbits and guard livestock? I ask after doing cursory research and finding in the South, cur dogs were all-around farm dogs and hound dogs. Or, maybe I just need to stick to bird dogs and quit pushing my luck with the wife!

Thank you for any info you can provide! I look forward to hearing your expertise.

Bernie:

THAT would be an interesting hybrid!

I'm going to say "No" and then let people tell me I'm wrong : )

You're dealing with different sets of instincts - ones that almost seem diametrically opposite.  Classic LGDs bond to their fluffy friends, operate independently, have a hatred of predators. They also are generally bonded to the land.  In contrast a hunting dog is willing to roam, accept direction from you and seems to hate small fluffy things.

For instance - take Odin the GP.  As fires forced rapid evaucation, he wouldn't leave his goats behind.  The fire claimed every building on the property but somehow Odin kept the goats alive and ... this is the amazing part ... even looked after some deer that showed up too!  See https://www.sacbee.com/news/california/fires/article179237671.html

So there's something about LGDs that prey animals recognize as unthreatening, while predators pee their little pants and run away.  My cows were totally chill with the LGD and yet tried to kill my shepherd when it got too close chasing its ball.  Trying to get a dog whose very presence relaxes prey animals to go after rabbits seems like a really steep hill to climb!

On the other hand, many dogs will still be protective of the property and its animals.  We've had dogs whose attitude seemed to be "If I can't have that chicken there is NO WAY I'm letting that stupid coyote have it."  I think most shepherd breeds are also protective - but they aren't the same as LGDs.  Any dog that runs the property, pees on things and generally lets the predators know there is something else with canine teeth about can really help.

I have no doubt it is possible, but I think it will depend on finding a particular dog, not a particular breed or mix. I think the most important thing for what you want is for the dog to have a very strong desire to please you above all else. That combined with good training would make it possible I believe. As far as getting a puppy and expecting to make it happen, I would think the odds are greatly against you.

I second what Elliot said. A livestock guardian has no instinct for chasing or retrieving. That is why they are safe around vulnerable livestock without training.

However I know lots of farm dogs that are retrievers or collies. With a bit of training they understand that free ranging chickens or other livestock belong to their people and are not to be chased or attacked. If your livestock are close to your house, a hound dog could be trained to leave your animals alone, and they would naturally defend their territory from other predators.

I have a collie X Lab she will protect the cats and chickens/ducks and is very happy to retrieve, I've used her to catch run away ducklings which I expected her to herd but no she grabbed them and brought them back that way. she is desperate to please so is very easy to train, but I don't think she would manage against anything bigger than a fox as she's very nervous. (she's chased foxes, mink, birds of prey and cats away from the birds) However if she even thinks there is something out there she sure does let us and everyone within a couple of miles know!

I agree with Jordan that it would probably depend on the particular dog more than anything. I suspect a lab or lab cross might be a little more likely to work than some others, though. They're so eager to please they practically train themselves.

We rescued a lone mallard duckling from a cat one time and raised it. My lab mutt followed it everywhere before it could fly and guarded it. I had guinea pigs that had an outside run and he'd lie outside the fence and guard them, too. My rabbit was a different story. It was a super grouchy old rabbit and didn't get the cuddly attention from me the duck and guinea pigs did, so when it got out one time he didn't realise it was family and chased it down.  Same with a neighbour's cat.  And skunks. Ugh, so many skunks!  He was an amazing bear dog and killed every snake he could. Whenever I was camping, he'd be super alert all night and patrol around the campsite, barking whenever he heard or smelled anything. I think he could have been worked as hound and lgd.

This may not be helpful, but it was cause for a bit of inner chuckling!  :-)   My wife had beagles when she was growing up....and my family mostly had bassets.   Now we have LGDs (ranging over the years from Anatolians to Sarplaninacs to Great Pyrs).  When I think of...um....the 'fantastic exercise regime' that has been bestowed on me by members of the latter breeds escaping the perimeter fence and combine that with the roaming inclinations of the proverbial 'hound dog', I envision a hybrid with boundless gait and energy capable of spanning several counties in a single night.... :-)   But, with the right mixture of genes and training, who knows?....it might just work out.

John Weiland wrote:This may not be helpful, but it was cause for a bit of inner chuckling!  :-)   My wife had beagles when she was growing up....and my family mostly had bassets.   Now we have LGDs (ranging over the years from Anatolians to Sarplaninacs to Great Pyrs).  When I think of...um....the 'fantastic exercise regime' that has been bestowed on me by members of the latter breeds escaping the perimeter fence and combine that with the roaming inclinations of the proverbial 'hound dog', I envision a hybrid with boundless gait and energy capable of spanning several counties in a single night.... :-)   But, with the right mixture of genes and training, who knows?....it might just work out.

HA! That alone has me realizing that a LGD needs to stay in a guarding job. If I do ever get a hound it will be an inside dog for that reason alone. Additionally, every hunting dog I've had has worked better being inside because the relationship between dog and human is more constant. That being said, did those basset hounds hunt? Or were they a line that had all the prey and proper function bred out of them?

A dog whose specialty is to guard OR hunt is exactly that; finding one who would do both, well, would be exceedingly difficult, in my opinion, so much so that it would be closer to a fluke then even lucky.

A bird, rabbit or other "flushing" breed might well be a willing "guard" dog, but that would not be it's greatest desire, or instinct. A guardian breed should be focused on the resident domestic inhabitants, not distracted by spotting/smelling out critters to flush, in my opinion. I am sure there ARE dogs that have ascertained how best to please their masters, who have "learned" to do both, but I would not expect this to be the norm.

Perhaps you choose based on what is most important...and hope the other (hunting rabbits/guarding livestock) just happens to come naturally. Or perhaps your rabbit dog is not a hunting dog but a ratter for dealing with vermin who just so happens to be able to double as your hunter (don't tell the wife your plan!), and you still get the guardian?

Bernie Clark wrote:..... That being said, did those basset hounds hunt? Or were they a line that had all the prey and proper function bred out of them?

I'm pretty sure they would have been trainable for hunting, but they were just suburban pets. They tended towards shorter ears so although their conformation was very much Basset, I can't say that they were purebreds.  
We did not have fencing for the yard so they were leashed when outside and mostly lived inside.  But if out in the doghouse on an occasional night and they ended up slipping their collar, they were gone. Tight enough neighborhood that we would be called if someone recognized them or else we called the dog pound and often found them there.

Lorinne Anderson wrote:A dog whose specialty is to guard OR hunt is exactly that; finding one who would do both, well, would be exceedingly difficult, in my opinion, so much so that it would be closer to a fluke then even lucky.

A bird, rabbit or other "flushing" breed might well be a willing "guard" dog, but that would not be it's greatest desire, or instinct. A guardian breed should be focused on the resident domestic inhabitants, not distracted by spotting/smelling out critters to flush, in my opinion. I am sure there ARE dogs that have ascertained how best to please their masters, who have "learned" to do both, but I would not expect this to be the norm.

Perhaps you choose based on what is most important...and hope the other (hunting rabbits/guarding livestock) just happens to come naturally. Or perhaps your rabbit dog is not a hunting dog but a ratter for dealing with vermin who just so happens to be able to double as your hunter (don't tell the wife your plan!), and you still get the guardian?

God willing my wife will allow us three house dogs at some point.. one of those a rabbit dog!

Bernie Clark wrote:

God willing my wife will allow us three house dogs at some point...

Be careful what you wish for!.... ;-)

Oh, and as to the wife saying only two dogs...my spouse tried that, when we first got together "no inside dogs"! So I gave him a puppy for his birthday. We are currently owned by 11 dogs, several who sleep under the covers in bed with us.

I took a class on LGDs about a year ago.  One thing I remember being stated, in no uncertain terms, was that crossing LGDs with non-LGDs is almost always a BAD idea.  It was anecdotal (and the plural of anecdote is not data), but they lady running the class recounted the story of an accidental breeding of an LGD with I think an aussie shepherd.   Every single puppy from that litter was put down within 2 years because of how dangerous they were.  

LGDs have been bred to be independent, self-sufficient, and absolutely tenacious when confronting a threat.  Mix that with a hound breed that is meant to chase prey animals rather than protect them and you could easily find yourself with a time bomb with a very erratic and unpredictable fuse.  At best you will fight constantly against tendencies to roam and investigate every squirrel trail possible rather than properly guard your livestock.  At worst, the dog will chase and kill yours or your neighbors livestock, and then turn to attack if someone tries to intervene.  

Leora Laforge wrote:I second what Elliot said. A livestock guardian has no instinct for chasing or retrieving. That is why they are safe around vulnerable livestock without training.

Sample size of one, but this matches my experience.  Our LGD (unemployed pet) has absolutely zero interest in chasing, catching, killing, or eating small furry creatures.  He looks at our other dogs in disbelief like they are plumb CRAZY when they dig gophers or eat roadkill.  He chased an aggressive neighbor tomcat once (badly/slowly) and he routinely wrangles with a pack of neighbor dogs who come to our yard bored and looking for excitement, but even then he's focused on driving them away, and never uses his ridiculously superior bulk and weight to tumble them, much less pin or kill them. It's unclear if he's even trying to bite them, although he makes impressive threat displays.  He's even suspicious of meaty bones or any non-standard treat; he will gnaw them if they are good, but only after a lot (like, many minutes of) inspection, sniffing, and checking in with eye contact to make sure it is OK/authorized/acceptable.  He basically won't eat at all if he's outside and considers himself "on duty" in dog-that-watches mode; eating is for mealtimes and lounging-on-the-cool-tiles half-asleep downtime.

I have a LGD mix with a Hunting dog. And it can happen yes. But it shouldn't happen. Those to working breeds are entirely different and shouldn't be in one. It can cause many problems from phically and mentally. Literally.

It is certainly possible to have a part LGD/Hound.

Our daughter's newest rescue is mostly 1/2 German shepherd and 1/2 chihuahua per DNA .  He looks like a Jack Russell Terrier of which none is in the DNA

Will a part LGD/Hound hunt?  It depends ...

Has anyone tried to train a dog to do something it was not bred to do?  I bet if the dog is trainable anything is possible.

In doing so that LGD might not guard if hunting is a favorite ...

I currently have a Black Mouth Cur, and she has been a great dog. Noted not only for hunting use but as a herding/guard breed.